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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 12:58:21 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Aswad, I am surprised that your description of the zeitgeist of Norway is such that I really wouldn't want to live there! Is the population that homogeneous there?


Oh I don't know. $500 a day just for begging? I think I could suffer the strict beard and alarming sweater requirement for a few weeks during a cheapo summer's holiday.



Well, I am an excellent knitter...

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 1:00:36 PM   
Hillwilliam


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That's why I said "the bullet", not "the cartridge"

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 7/24/2012 1:01:29 PM >


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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 1:08:23 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

LOL, you liberal guys sure have taken a shine to me. The level of condescension is hilarious. Stand up comedy would be a good career change.

I think now I understand why you're all so into the health care, all that toxic anger you've got stored up is a heart attack or stroke just waiting to happen.

I'd love to see the statistics on how many of the deranged people having meltdowns and killing a bunch of people come from the liberal camp.

How would "changing paradim of archetypes" differ from a word like say "opinion"? Perhaps popular opinion? It is not something only I have noticed...so I'm not sure where you are going with that. It's a shame that Joseph Campbell isn't still alive to address the issue.

How about addressing the poster instead of lumping in an entire stereotype--and a straw manned one at that.

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 1:08:50 PM   
mnottertail


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all Nato cartridges are standard for interchange in camera among allies.  Same sort of with the commie stuff though ours wont interchange with theirs, its geneva conventions.



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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 1:09:54 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

And ya, cuz deer are so hard to find, hunt and kill yanno.


Yeah. We don't have those Columbian drug-cartel war-lord deer up here.

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 1:17:07 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Meh, the AK is just a basic .30 caliber bullet. It's the media built reputation and the fact that it's the weapon of choice in 3rd world places that freaks people out.
It's so dependable that a lot of our special forces guys use them instead of the NATO issue stuff.

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Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 186
RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 1:22:14 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Well it's as I said, load-point-shoot. The instamatic camera of rifles, really.

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 1:29:28 PM   
stellauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

When Stella didn't understand why we cared so much about a document, I was amazed. People fought and died over that document. People still do, though the true purpose of their masters is far more oblique. It's all we have to hold our government up, the notion that we have those inalienable rights. Why everything must be all or nothing, why there can be no small and reasonable adjustments, I don't know. Personally, I don't think that civilians need military grade ordnance.


It isn't so much the attachment to the document which defies my comprehension, but the actual events. I am well aware of how much blood has been spilled to get that document together.

But what use is the Constitution if it doesn't protect some citizens and if some people are still dying? We're talking here about families losing sons and daughters.

After all there's been so much discussion about the 2nd Amendment, but what about the 14th Amendment? It's part of the same document, is it not?

How can it be that the 14th Amendment was so important to some when they wanted to overturn Roe v. Wade and define conception as the start of life to protect 'unborn Americans', and yet nobody is making any mention of the 14th Amendment here?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I don't think that passing more laws will make a shred of difference to gun culture, or to the poverty that fuels the genuine need for protection, or the drug trafficking that is tied in to both.



I agree entirely.

And I don't think it will change the fact that some people will own guns and yeah, if they're so attached to them enjoy the right to 'bear arms'.

But you know to the families of the victims, and to every family of every victim of gun crime, it would make a lot of difference.

It would certainly mean much more than the public outpouring of sympathy and prayers. Words and emotions can be cheap, but when tied to decisions and actions can take on their own significance.

You know at the end of the day a law is just a piece of paper. But I feel in this instance that the passing of such a law would be a fitting tribute to the victims of Aurora, and of Columbine, and of Waco, and of all the other shootings.

I'm not an expert by any means, but surely introducing firearms controls lies well within the spirit of the 14th Amendment?


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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 1:41:18 PM   
mnottertail


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The question becomes why?  There are many countries in this world with heavy gun ownership.

Why dont they throw down at a drop of the hat?

Why isn't this happening in Minnesota all the time, I daresay there are more guns per capita here than Colorado, why in colorado twice to minnesotas none?

Why not montana?  Why did the montana living unabomber (well, theres the name) use bombs instead of easily available guns?  What is causing these people to go off out of nowhere? 

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 2:12:21 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

The question becomes why?  There are many countries in this world with heavy gun ownership.

Why dont they throw down at a drop of the hat?

Why isn't this happening in Minnesota all the time, I daresay there are more guns per capita here than Colorado, why in colorado twice to minnesotas none?

Why not montana?  Why did the montana living unabomber (well, theres the name) use bombs instead of easily available guns?  What is causing these people to go off out of nowhere? 

All good and relevant questions. Could there be a socialogical difference in the areas? Or a psychological one?

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 2:38:41 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Aswad
The more important question, perhaps, is whether anything should be done. I tend to think not.


I'm afraid we have to differ here. It would be unthinkable that, if something alone the lines of Columbine or Aurora happened here, nothing would be done about it. The last time something like that happened here, far stricter gun control was instituted, including a ban on all automatic rifles. That seems to have put a stop to it. Last time I checked we are still a free society here.

The question of context is most important. For me, this is an extreme act of violence in an already violent society. The murder rate in the US is a multiple of murder rates in comparable countries. There are 2 million Americans behind bars and some 6 million under "correctional supervision". The levels of personal and State violence far exceed those elsewhere. So do the levels of gun ownership. The level of State support for those at the margins is far lower than elsewhere. Violence and crime, and the fear of violence and crime, (which can be just as debilitating) seems far higher in the US than elsewhere.

Some Americans seem to shrug their shoulders and make noises about the price of freedom. I don't see the figures I've just referred to as reflecting freedom at all. If you feel they do reflect freedom, then by all means do nothing. To me, freedom seem diminished by the levels of fear and paranoia I see expressed in many posts here.

All this suggests to me that there is something very basic out of kilter in American society. If events such as Aurora are to be avoided in future, this question needs serious examination.

Actually the assault weapons ban predated Colimbine by several years.



Not to mention Klebold and Harris used shotguns and 9mm pistols... Nary an "assault" rifle in sight.

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 2:43:17 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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We have the Michigan Militia and the KKK here... and while we are the origin of the term 'going postal', that shooter was very specific in his targets.

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 3:06:59 PM   
papassion


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I wonder what it says about american priorities when gun ownership is a right and healthcare isn't. DUH!

I can quote the second amendment gauanteeing the right to own a gun. Can you quote the amendment gauranteeing health care? The founding fathers were wise men who lived in the real world and not Liberals who only have a 10 year old's perception of a Disney World like United States.

For the record, I sincerely wish the world was like the Liberal's fantasy type Mr Rodgers neighborhoods, but I can see, hear and read. So I know the Liberal fantasy world is just that, fantasy. Thousands of years of wars, nations against nations and people against people. I wouldn't bet its going to be peachy all over the world tomorrow.

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 3:09:29 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

After all there's been so much discussion about the 2nd Amendment, but what about the 14th Amendment? It's part of the same document, is it not?

How can it be that the 14th Amendment was so important to some when they wanted to overturn Roe v. Wade and define conception as the start of life to protect 'unborn Americans', and yet nobody is making any mention of the 14th Amendment here?

<snippage.
And I don't think it will change the fact that some people will own guns and yeah, if they're so attached to them enjoy the right to 'bear arms'.

But you know to the families of the victims, and to every family of every victim of gun crime, it would make a lot of difference.

It would certainly mean much more than the public outpouring of sympathy and prayers. Words and emotions can be cheap, but when tied to decisions and actions can take on their own significance.

You know at the end of the day a law is just a piece of paper. But I feel in this instance that the passing of such a law would be a fitting tribute to the victims of Aurora, and of Columbine, and of Waco, and of all the other shootings.

I'm not an expert by any means, but surely introducing firearms controls lies well within the spirit of the 14th Amendment?




The FOURTEENTH amendment? The one that overturned Dred Scott? The point of that amendment was to grant "human" status to black folks, pretty much... and later on, to assure that everyone got equal police protection. I can see the spin on "equal protection under the law", just barely, if I squint.

People are killed EVERY DAY. How far can that analogy be pushed? Can we say that the police didn't do an adequate job of protecting my neighbour that was murdered by her son? Can we abolish kitchen knives? It just doesn't work. The law says "equal protection", meaning that lynchings are frowned upon, and kangaroo courts. We cannot remove every potentially dangerous thing just because crazy people.

The people who would overturn Roe v Wade do NOT care about living humans once they have taken their first breath. They are interested in FETAL rights, not human rights. They'll spin anything to their advantage, not unlike the random Leviticus quoters.

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 3:23:09 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Meh, the AK is just a basic .30 caliber bullet.


That would be the AK-74. 7.62X39. Similar to the AR/10, both being within the 30 cal class. The AK-47 uses the 5.45X39. More akin to a AR/15 or M16 if you prefer; slightly enlarged Dia. and highly souped up .22.




< Message edited by Yachtie -- 7/24/2012 3:25:24 PM >


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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 3:32:20 PM   
mnottertail


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its a .223.   the 7.62 nato round is actually a .308  shell the 30-06 is old school M1 Garand

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 3:34:04 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

its a .223.   the 7.62 nato round is actually a .308  shell the 30-06 is old school M1 Garand


Just went and checked. I do that, mix up numbers. 47, 74. Lol, my checkbook never balances.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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Profile   Post #: 197
RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 3:35:29 PM   
mnottertail


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but the russin round is a 7.62 x54 it got a big hind end that boy.

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Profile   Post #: 198
RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 3:42:05 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession
LOL, you liberal guys sure have taken a shine to me. The level of condescension is hilarious. Stand up comedy would be a good career change.


Actually, most professional comedians in the states thought at the end of the Bush administration they would have to start....working...at finding good material to joke & mock. But, the GOP simply expanded its 'Bush Intelligence and Wisdom' schooling to more Republicans in elected office (and those not...see Mr. Limgbaugh). As a result, comedians have not really had to work at finding material such much as sorting through how much material they can squeeze in an hour show. After all, they have to figure on sensible, honest, good, and mature adults watching and laughing.

An example of such material.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession
I think now I understand why you're all so into the health care, all that toxic anger you've got stored up is a heart attack or stroke just waiting to happen.


Dude, you possess very little to any knowledge on the subject, with a statement like that. 'Toxic anger...."? Maybe you should take a serious and objective look at the conservatives in this nation. In fact, why not start a thread stating you wish to limit say....firearms...and observe just how toxic the anger becomes. Or state a new thread you wish to be sensible citizen regarding paying down the US Debt, but raising taxes on all Americans (particularly the rich). You'll get plenty of '...toxic anger...' types from the CST (That'st he Conservative School of Thought). They'll explain material that would be totally laughable if it werent for the fact that if they dont get their way; they'd threaten to use their '...2nd Amendment Remedies....' to 'correct the issue'.

Most conservatives (grand majority in fact) have never read the ACA. Nor did they read the President's version (which was largely a better system). They dont know whats in and not in it. But argue quite heavily like they are all experts on the document. Even when facts and evidence is placed directly on their plate, they will ignore it cus "Rush said otherwise..." or "FOX News stated that is not true".

Truth is, I have access to that 'socialized medicine' I hear so many conservatives bitch about. As a resident of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts I have good access to medicine and doctors. I usually see a doctor for most things in about 3-5 business days. Of course for something serious, it can be soon, or head to the ER. I can get same day office visit to a specialist if I need to. Oh, and drugs cost me $3.65.....REGARDLESS....of the drug. Does your drug plan do that?

I suspect your at the mercy of both your employeer and the health care corporations. If you leave your current job, your health care policy immediately starts to decay and there is nothing in the laws that state the next job you get will be equal or better. The health care corporations dicate your life and really dont care what you have to say about it. Its not like you can throw their boss's boss out of a job, let alone them. In MA, we can vote out the boss's boss, which means we can effect the policy and enviroment of everything below.

An as you get older, I'm sure your 'Capitalistic Medicine' will simply 'nickle and dime you to death' to maximize their profit. The company will profit off your misery, suffering and oh yes....your death.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession
I'd love to see the statistics on how many of the deranged people having meltdowns and killing a bunch of people come from the liberal camp.


Cus no conservative would....EVER....have a meltdown and kill bunchs of people, right?

Why dont you look that information up yourself? Or just ask FOX News if they can find an 'expert' to tell you how to think? That way you can feel happy and proud and come on to this forum and share it to all of us. Than, we'll (if the media hasnt destroyed this lame 'information') take it apart by showing how a 30 second google search works. The end result is that your information is found to be 'loose on facts', 'not accurate', and 'heavily painted with both racial and political bias viewpoints'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession
How would "changing paradim of archetypes" differ from a word like say "opinion"? Perhaps popular opinion? It is not something only I have noticed...so I'm not sure where you are going with that. It's a shame that Joseph Campbell isn't still alive to address the issue.


To bad the Founding Fathers weren't still alive. Be curious to get their input on the 2nd Amendment (not to mention the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 10th). I wonder how they feel about 'demon possessed citizens obtaining muskets that fire 30 musket balls faster than they can say "oh my Lord!" into groups of everyday citizens? Seeing as most modern day conservatives (like you CIIS), have no clue what the colonial America definition to the 2nd Amendment implied and expressed (its safe to say its....alot....different to how its in use today). I bet you couldnt even explain the 2nd in colonial American terms.

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/24/2012 3:54:48 PM   
Yachtie


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fr

Interesting statistics on mass murders. It's not all about guns.



< Message edited by Yachtie -- 7/24/2012 3:55:29 PM >


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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Profile   Post #: 200
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