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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/26/2012 2:40:46 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

A few police agencies use the 1911 but do to safety concerns lacking in the design there are not too many.

1911a1s or a2s or if there are a3 modifications (which is all you could get, since LEOs would not use the antiques) have 7 separate safeties, so I could not figure how there are safety concerns lacking in the design unless you are a goddamn fool and stick your thumb web under the hammer (you would have to have a wierd grasp), or get your knuckle under or stick your thumb up directly behind the reciever, I dunno.......how the fuck they could come to that.    



Some of the current A2 models if not most are made with drop safeties. Then there are the models with manual ambidextrous safeties and then of course the grip safety. That makes 4 but maybe just 3 because with the ambidextrous one whether you engage or disengage it from right or left, it's still only one saftey. I don't have a clue what the other 3 or 4 are. Please enlighten me. I'm not familiar with the A3 but there is such a thing if I'm not mistaken. I'm not all that familiar with the A2 other than a couple of articles that I've read.

Plenty of god damn fools out there. Though the instances of accidental discharges with a1911's I know of first hand were many years ago, 1911 safety concerns are common knowledge which I'm sure you know. The newer drop safety features address the most common one, that is the numb nut who carries or stores it loaded with hammer down over a live round. Mine doesn't have that particular feature so when loaded it's cocked and locked, holstered with the retaining strap between the hammer and firing pin, finger won't touch the trigger till ready to shoot.

I believe another problem with 1911 safety is unless you have the grip safety depressed then it can go off in the hands of a numb nut and he can shoot his foot or someone else, it's not fail safe. The other thing would be that I don't think the A2 has a magazine safety similar to the Browning High Power. With the
magazine detached from the pistol a numb nut can have an AD when he thinks it's unloaded. The other concern would be an accidental discharge by for example a cop keeping his weapon trained on a suspect with the safety off. A double action semi-auto would address that one.

I'm aware of a security guard back in I think the 70's who dropped his 1911, hammer down on a live round which went off hitting and killing his coworker. I know of another time (heard this one from a cop) a numb nut cop was in a police station bathroom taking a crap who carried it in his waist band. He hung it up by the trigger guard on a hook with the safety disengaged. It went off quite a few times but no one was hit. I can't remember when that one happened. There are many more instances of 1911 mishaps out there I know. Many of the more modern designs address some of the safety concerns of the 1911's, especially since the advent of double action semi-autos. That would be the extent of my knowledge on these details but by all means I welcome your expertise on the subject.


< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 7/26/2012 2:51:16 PM >

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/26/2012 2:56:57 PM   
mnottertail


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look under design, additionally there is the mag not seated safety and mag lockback safety. 

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/26/2012 3:34:41 PM   
lovmuffin


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Status: offline 		I don't see anything about those safeties but what is a mag lockback safety ? I also read at one time somewhere that Colt discontinued the firing pin block on the 80's series.

< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 7/26/2012 3:37:39 PM >

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/26/2012 3:46:45 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Please excuse me, but isn't the problem that concerns everyone not the ownership of guns per se but the wrong people having access to guns. If we can all agree with that proposition, then a solution can be found.


I can agree with that proposition as an outline, sure.

quote:

Why not follow this model?


In the spirit of keeping the (costly) duties of the police inside their core mandate, the gun ranges are a better location.

But the legal definitions need to be cleaned up, and responsibility for the definitions placed in competent hands.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/26/2012 4:19:11 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The 1911 is a work of art.



Never though of it that way but I would have to agree. 100 year old technology is still the world premier fighting handgun.

So what branch of your government still uses it then?

None as they went over to double action, most noteably the Berretta special forces use double action .45 acps
the Colt peacmaker is a work of art but that doesn't mean that the Govenrment should still use them.

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/26/2012 4:23:00 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I know that they're still popular with civilian gun nuts, and I'm not arguing that it isn't a fine pistol, but it's news to me that the FBI still use them. I thought they favoured more modern designs if they use .45s rather than some European calibre that's measured in millimetres?

After the Miami shootout the FBI had the .40 and 10mm developed as they determined that the 9mm was inadequate. Most Goverment agencies here use the .40 it seemed to catch on better than the 10mm. Both come in a double action automatic.

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/26/2012 4:48:04 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I know that they're still popular with civilian gun nuts, and I'm not arguing that it isn't a fine pistol, but it's news to me that the FBI still use them. I thought they favoured more modern designs if they use .45s rather than some European calibre that's measured in millimetres?

After the Miami shootout the FBI had the .40 and 10mm developed as they determined that the 9mm was inadequate. Most Goverment agencies here use the .40 it seemed to catch on better than the 10mm. Both come in a double action automatic.



I seem to remember reading an article that related to the inferiority of the 9mm and about a number of 1911 45's the FBI ordered from Springfield or Kimber or another company, I don't recall. I do remember they tested them for safety concerns by dropping them cocked and locked trying to get the safeties to fail and the hammer to drop. They passed the tests and I'm pretty sure they didn't have any type of drop safety.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/27/2012 6:45:43 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I don't see anything about those safeties but what is a mag lockback safety ? I also read at one time somewhere that Colt discontinued the firing pin block on the 80's series.


The military mandated a grip safety and a manual safety.

A grip safety,
sear disconnect,
slide stop,
half cock position,
and manual safety
(located on the left rear of the frame) are on all standard M1911A1s

mag lockback is when the mag is empty it locks back and shoving another clip into it and pulling back on the slide will not cut it, you have to detent the slide stop safety. 

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/27/2012 7:49:42 AM   
Thaz


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Status: offline 		FBI and various other US government branches tend to use the .45 1911 for special purposes. In essence expert users may prefer the 1911 for stopping power and other choices whereas for general issue a weapon with more forgiving safety, lower cost etc is prefered.

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/27/2012 8:16:59 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		That ol punkin slinger is the bestest, throwing garbage cans like it does, if you dont tag em, it can tear enough wood off the doorframe to splinter em to death.  

And that slow bullet speed really tha womps the shit outta em.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 7/27/2012 8:18:37 AM >

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/27/2012 8:33:41 AM   
Thaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

That ol punkin slinger is the bestest, throwing garbage cans like it does, if you dont tag em, it can tear enough wood off the doorframe to splinter em to death.  

And that slow bullet speed really tha womps the shit outta em.


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Profile   Post #: 271
RE: 2nd amendment - 7/27/2012 8:37:32 AM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		there was some company some years ago that made a barrel extension so women who couldnt cock the slide could slam it into the wall to cock it.  That was a good idea.

one of the big bitches about the army 11 was the inaccuracy, because the barrel slide and hinge was loosely machined and the  barrel wasnt tapered into the lock and thats why like cold commanders and whatnot were made to accurize that, and the big buck models are close tolerance machining to tighten them up, and by god, some of those are hard for me to pull back now.....LOL. 



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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/27/2012 8:45:46 AM   
KYsissy


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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/27/2012 11:33:59 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

there was some company some years ago that made a barrel extension so women who couldnt cock the slide could slam it into the wall to cock it.  That was a good idea.

one of the big bitches about the army 11 was the inaccuracy, because the barrel slide and hinge was loosely machined and the  barrel wasnt tapered into the lock and thats why like cold commanders and whatnot were made to accurize that, and the big buck models are close tolerance machining to tighten them up, and by god, some of those are hard for me to pull back now.....LOL. 




The beauty of those built in "loose" tolerance was it's ability to operate in "inclement" conditions


< Message edited by thompsonx -- 7/27/2012 11:42:02 AM >

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/27/2012 11:35:47 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I know that they're still popular with civilian gun nuts, and I'm not arguing that it isn't a fine pistol, but it's news to me that the FBI still use them. I thought they favoured more modern designs if they use .45s rather than some European calibre that's measured in millimetres?



I am unsure what you mean by "more modern designs".

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/27/2012 11:38:25 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I know that they're still popular with civilian gun nuts, and I'm not arguing that it isn't a fine pistol, but it's news to me that the FBI still use them. I thought they favoured more modern designs if they use .45s rather than some European calibre that's measured in millimetres?


After the infamous shoot out in Miami, FL in 1986 where 2 agents were killed and several wounded they reevaluated the inferior 9mm issue handguns. The suspects were initially hit with 9mm's but failed to go down as they continued to shoot it out and the 2 agents were killed as a result. It was later they ordered a number of 1911's. I can't recall how many or how widely they're distributed inside the agency.



The problem was that the fbi went to an ass kicking contest barefoot. The other team had mini 14's, if I remember,that turned the body armor of the fbi into swiss cheese.

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/27/2012 11:41:06 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I've always preferred "disavow" as opposed to "disabuse" but I don't like the word "abuse", anyway so, there ya have it.
 
 
 
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Michael



A rose by any other name would still have as many thorns

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/27/2012 12:17:25 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Interesting bit of perspective:





He still had to go through all the paper work to buy the weapons in the first place.

I have about 5000 rounds of ammo for various calibers, bought online and through local stores.

Of course a portion of that ammo is not for modern weapons, and is used in some antique guns I own, that firing modern ammo would be unsafe.

Perhaps I am trying to build up a supply to do something nuts, or I spend a lot of time at the range, decide for yourself.

Oh, buy the way, purchasing large quantities of ammonia nitrate usually sends up flags with ATF and the FBI. I know a couple of ranchers that made large purchases and had the pleasure of an ATF agent paying them a visit.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/27/2012 2:52:47 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I know that they're still popular with civilian gun nuts, and I'm not arguing that it isn't a fine pistol, but it's news to me that the FBI still use them. I thought they favoured more modern designs if they use .45s rather than some European calibre that's measured in millimetres?


After the infamous shoot out in Miami, FL in 1986 where 2 agents were killed and several wounded they reevaluated the inferior 9mm issue handguns. The suspects were initially hit with 9mm's but failed to go down as they continued to shoot it out and the 2 agents were killed as a result. It was later they ordered a number of 1911's. I can't recall how many or how widely they're distributed inside the agency.



The problem was that the fbi went to an ass kicking contest barefoot. The other team had mini 14's, if I remember,that turned the body armor of the fbi into swiss cheese.

At leastone of them did. While I favour the larger calibers much of the problem was that the agents couldn't get a good solid hit on the bad guys till one of the got to a shotgun. (12ga oo buck ten feet tends to ruin your day.) FBI should have come out of their cars shotguns in hand. Advantage of .45 over 9 mm is you don't have to be quite as accurate.

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RE: 2nd amendment - 7/27/2012 3:01:21 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		The ruger mini 14 fires a .223 or the NATO 5.56 round.

With the exception of tactical teams which wear body armor with trauma plates, all they would have is soft armor which will only stop a pistol round.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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Profile   Post #: 280
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