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There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/25/2012 8:34:05 PM   
farglebargle


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Looks like the State of Pennsylvania just cut their own throat in the DOJ vs State of PA lawsuit by admitting there are zero investigations and zero cases of voter fraud.

http://www.aclupa.org/downloads/ApplewhiteStipulation.pdf

quote:


The state signed a stipulation agreement with lawyers for the plaintiffs which acknowledges there “have been no investigations or prosecutions of in-person voter fraud in Pennsylvania; and the parties do not have direct personal knowledge of any such investigations or prosecutions in other states.”

Additionally, the agreement states Pennsylvania “will not offer any evidence in this action that in-person voter fraud has in fact occurred in Pennsylvania and elsewhere” or even argue “that in person voter fraud is likely to occur in November 2012 in the absense of the Photo ID law.”




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RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/25/2012 8:38:42 PM   
joether


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LOL!

Seriously, do we need to bring this issue up again? Didn't we completely undermine the myth known as 'voter fraud' a few months ago?

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RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/25/2012 8:48:57 PM   
erieangel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

LOL!

Seriously, do we need to bring this issue up again? Didn't we completely undermine the myth known as 'voter fraud' a few months ago?



Since the court case the ACLU brought against the state just started (or will start in a day or two--haven't really been on top of it all) this is important.

The ACLU case is on behave of an African American woman who lost her ID when her purse was stolen and is unable to obtain new ID because she doesn't have a birth certificate. This woman marched with Martin Luther King and has voted in every election since Kennedy.

But hey, she's black, old and poor--she shouldn't have any right to a vote. (snark)

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RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/25/2012 9:04:13 PM   
joether


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I've argued from the start, erieangel, that the Voter ID concept was a violation of the 4th Amendment. I dont recall those who lived in the original 13 colonies needing to show their photo ID to vote. Why should I have to show mine, some 220+ years later? I've never had to show my ID to vote. I stated who I am and where I live to the nice folks at the voting house. If someone doesnt believe I'm either {A} Who I state I am or {B} Where I live is corrected. Guess what? Its up to them to come up with the burden of evidence....NOT ME!

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RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/25/2012 9:16:36 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

I've never had to show my ID to vote. I stated who I am and where I live to the nice folks at the voting house.




yeh thats what 20,000 illegal aliens did too

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RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/25/2012 9:18:44 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

But hey, she's black, old and poor--she shouldn't have any right to a vote. (snark)




Anyone wants to play "citizen" prove it.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/25/2012 9:27:57 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
I've never had to show my ID to vote. I stated who I am and where I live to the nice folks at the voting house.

yeh thats what 20,000 illegal aliens did too


And that's where the one making the accusation has to bring up the burden of evidence. NOT, the person being accused. Last I checked, one is considered 'innocent' until proven 'guilty'. Have you ever actually....READ....the 4th Amendment? One's 'Papers' implies documents of a legal nature. And they are secured in them against unreasonable search or seizure. This applies, RO, to *ALL* persons found under the legal power of the nation. US Citizens, those on student/work visas, vacation trips, illegal immigrants, and oh yes, RO.....even 'enemy combatants'. Further, the 4th Amendment state was is secure against these searchs unless there is probable cause that a crime is in process or has taken place.

BTW, where did you get your 20,000 illegal aliens that voted from?

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RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/26/2012 3:39:13 AM   
DaNewAgeViking


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Out of his ass, where he gets most of his posts.

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RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/26/2012 4:04:22 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
I've argued from the start, erieangel, that the Voter ID concept was a violation of the 4th Amendment. I dont recall those who lived in the original 13 colonies needing to show their photo ID to vote. Why should I have to show mine, some 220+ years later? I've never had to show my ID to vote. I stated who I am and where I live to the nice folks at the voting house. If someone doesnt believe I'm either {A} Who I state I am or {B} Where I live is corrected. Guess what? Its up to them to come up with the burden of evidence....NOT ME!


So, if you are ahead of me in line and either claim you are the guy living next to me, or that you live on the other side of me, I'm supposed to go and prove you aren't, even though I know you aren't? How am I to do that? I can step up and say, "that is not (neighbor's name). (Name) is my neighbor, and this guy is not (Name)." Or, I can say, "I live next to that house and this guy here does not live there." In either case, whether my claim is true or not, proof has not been offered. Until it's verified, I can not prove you don't live next to me, even though I know, for certain, you do not live next to me.

Now, had you taken the excruciatingly laborious and painful steps to take out your wallet and photo ID...

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RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/26/2012 4:10:18 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Didn't we completely undermine the myth known as 'voter fraud' a few months ago?

Yes, but when's something as petty as a fact going to have any influence on some of the zeebs on here with a taste for citing alleged frauds as an excuse to stop minorities who might vote Democrat being allowed to the polls?

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RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/26/2012 4:39:04 AM   
farglebargle


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Let's review.

When I submit my voter registration to the county board of elections, they have a DUTY to verify it's correct before entering me into the rolls. They can even send a sheriff to my home to question me and my neighbors BEFORE putting me into the rolls.

When I go vote, I countersign -- the legally most powerful verification of my identity -- the signature I submitted with my VERIFIED registration.

Now, aside from people not doing their jobs and verifying signatures what benefit is gained by adding a less secure authentication factor given that the people who fail to perform their duty verifying signatures won't do their duty verifying photo ids.

And why incur the expense when there's no voter fraud? And anyone with a clue understands that the fraud happens right in the database, where the nitwits screaming about photo ID seem to ignore auditing...

You want "honest" elections. AUDIT THEM -- end to end. And if you start wondering why you can't audit them, well, that's some very good wondering...

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/26/2012 4:40:02 AM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/26/2012 6:01:52 AM   
erieangel


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When the debate about the new PA voter ID law started, Corbett had his attorney general give some "facts". Those so-called stated that the voter ID law would impact less than 1% of the electorate. What we are finding, here in PA, however is that in Philly alone, about 18% of registered voters will be denied their constitutionally right to vote because they lack ID.

I've argued on another forum that the claims that everybody should have state issue ID because you can't do anything without one is false. People who live in the suburbs and rural areas of the state have ID because they have to drive. However, a large number of people in the cities don't have the ID and they tend to get along fine. I, myself, have gone in the past without my driver license for about 7 years because I wasn't driving. Yet, I still managed to get around on public transportation, update my library card after a move, have utilities turned on after a move, cash my checks and even opened a bank account. And the larger city, the larger number of people you will find who do not have state issue ID.

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RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/26/2012 6:37:08 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Looks like the State of Pennsylvania just cut their own throat in the DOJ vs State of PA lawsuit by admitting there are zero investigations and zero cases of voter fraud.



In that case, creating an initiative to fight a nonexistent problem falls under government fraud, waste, and abuse. and the initiative itself should be reported as such.

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RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/26/2012 6:50:34 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

When the debate about the new PA voter ID law started, Corbett had his attorney general give some "facts". Those so-called stated that the voter ID law would impact less than 1% of the electorate. What we are finding, here in PA, however is that in Philly alone, about 18% of registered voters will be denied their constitutionally right to vote because they lack ID.

I've argued on another forum that the claims that everybody should have state issue ID because you can't do anything without one is false. People who live in the suburbs and rural areas of the state have ID because they have to drive. However, a large number of people in the cities don't have the ID and they tend to get along fine. I, myself, have gone in the past without my driver license for about 7 years because I wasn't driving. Yet, I still managed to get around on public transportation, update my library card after a move, have utilities turned on after a move, cash my checks and even opened a bank account. And the larger city, the larger number of people you will find who do not have state issue ID.



WTF?

you can have id up the ass and it does not mean you are a citizen.

yeh people today who are completely ignorant of the fucking law are now required to make legal determinations for that which they have no clue at the voting booths.

you can have all the state and federal ID's that you want and the most you can get out of that is a constructive and implied citizenship.

that is unless you are born with the state up your ass at birth.

Oh wait thats right we are.

They forgot to tell you about split title and how much money thay can make off of you behind your back, and then tax you for the money they make behind your back as unrealized gains.

Ah no big deal though, just a minor oversight in the vast jungle of commercial leegoooolese.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to erieangel)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/26/2012 6:53:51 AM   
Hillwilliam


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Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government",

Keep saying it over and over............... Is it true yet?

Whoever said "Repeat a lie enough times and it becomes the truth" never saw that whopper.

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RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/26/2012 6:57:43 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

You want "honest" elections. AUDIT THEM -- end to end. And if you start wondering why you can't audit them, well, that's some very good wondering...


numbered double punched cards, (1 you take home for a receipt and recount) hermitcally sealed optomechancal counters. That is the only fucking way there will ever be fair counting.

Its not the voters who count, it those who count the votes! ~ Stalin




You need to update Joether


quote:

Hacking Democracy

November 2, 2006
DVD released March 27, 2007
Running time 82 minutes
Language English

Hacking Democracy is a 2006 documentary film by producer Robert Carrillo Cohen and producer / directors Russell Michaels and Simon Ardizzone, shown on HBO. Filmed over three years it documents American citizens investigating anomalies and irregularities with 'e-voting' (electronic voting) systems that occurred during the 2000 and 2004 elections in the U.S.A., especially in Volusia County, Florida. The film investigates the flawed integrity of electronic voting machines, particularly those made by Diebold Election Systems, and the film culminates dramatically in the on-camera hacking of the in-use / working Diebold election system in Leon County, Florida.

In 2007 Hacking Democracy was nominated for an Emmy award for Outstanding Investigative Journalism.[1]
Contents

1 Demonstrated flaws
2 Reaction
3 DVD release
4 See also
5 References
6 External links
6.1 Reviews

Demonstrated flaws

The documentary follows Bev Harris and Kathleen Wynne, director and associate director for nonprofit election watchdog group Black Box Voting, as they attempt to discover the extent to which it would be possible to alter results on the electronic voting machines of Diebold Election Systems (now Premier Election Solutions). Andy Stephenson, an employee of Black Box Voting from July-December 2004, assisted with comparisons of audit documents in Volusia County and obtained a secret videotape of Harris interviewing a voting machine testing lab. Kathleen Wynne captured live video of Harris finding voting machine records in a Volusia County trash bag, and captured video of Cuyahoga County elections workers admitting that the initial 3% recount ballots had not been randomly selected during the 2004 presidential election. Harris and Wynne then embarked on a series of five voting machine hack tests with Dr. Herbert Hugh Thompson and Harri Hursti in 2005 and 2006. During the course of the documentary, multiple methods of tampering with the votes are shown.

The first is through editing the database file that contains the voting totals. This file is a standard Microsoft Access database, and can be opened by normal means outside of the encompassing voting program without a password. Some jurisdictions have disabled Microsoft Access, making it more difficult to alter the database, but this protection was shown to be bypassed by Dr. Herbert Hugh Thompson through a Visual Basic program which searched for a string of text and edited the file through external means. However, alterations of the results in either of these fashions would be caught if a vigilant elections official compared the results with voting machine tapes.[2]

Another hacking technique was demonstrated through hacking the actual computer code used in the Diebold Accu-Vote memory cards. This method was discovered by Finnish computer security expert Harri Hursti and is known as "the Hursti Hack". In this hack, Harri Hursti rigged the Diebold optical scan voting system to make the wrong candidate win by adding negative (minus) votes to one race. This resulted in that race having votes literally subtracted from its vote total. These methods were tested by the Leon County Supervisor of Elections, Ion Sancho, on the actual Diebold optical scan voting system used by Tallahassee, Florida in all their prior elections. This method demonstrated, contrary to a previous Diebold statement, that a person attempting to rig the votes of a precinct would need access to only the memory card, not the optical scan voting system or tabulation software. This method, when cross-checked between the optical scan voting system and tabulation software, appears legitimate, and further produces a false zero-vote print-out to verify that the memory card has no votes inside it before voting begins. Following this historic hack Ion Sancho stated: "If I had not known what was behind this I would have certified this election as a true count of a vote."[2]
Reaction

Even though no one from Diebold Election Systems admitted to having seen the film,[3] Diebold President David Byrd suggested that Hacking Democracy was "replete with material examples of inaccurate reporting", and demanded that it not be aired.[4][5] His criticism was based on an earlier film made by the same three filmmakers. However, HBO refused to remove it from their schedules. In addition Diebold wrote a letter to HBO referring to the famous vote changing 'Hursti Hack' featured in the film, stating that "Harri Hursti is shown attacking a Diebold machine in Florida. But his attack proved later to be a complete sham."

California's Secretary of State commissioned a Special Report by scientists at UC Berkeley to investigate the Hursti Hack. Page 2 of their report states:

Harri Hursti's attack does work: Mr. Hursti's attack on the AV-OS is definitely real. He was indeed able to change the election results by doing nothing more than modifying the contents of a memory card. He needed no passwords, no cryptographic keys, and no access to any other part of the voting system, including the GEMS election management server.


One of Diebold's objections to the film was that it failed to mention that Avi Rubin, a Johns Hopkins computer science professor and vocal Diebold critic, may have a conflict of interest. doesnt change the fucking facts now does it shit fer brainsRubin at one point owned stock options in VoteHere, which sells auditing software and systems for voting machines. However, Rubin disposed of his stock options and withdrew from the VoteHere advisory board in August 2003, and says he had not had any meaningful contact since joining over two years before, except occasionally receiving press clippings.[6]
DVD release



Oh yeh but thank fully its too late for anyone to do anything about it now.

Wouldnt it be nice if people could say fuck paying their taxes and then claim its too late because they missed the payment date?

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 7/26/2012 6:59:20 AM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/26/2012 9:12:19 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government", Republicans are for "Small Government",

Keep saying it over and over............... Is it true yet?

Whoever said "Repeat a lie enough times and it becomes the truth" never saw that whopper.

The Department of Homeland Pretending to Do Something (at a cost of billions each year)

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/26/2012 9:25:24 AM   
papassion


Posts: 487
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How can anyone "prove" there is no voter fraud? You don't have to prove who you are, No one can see how you voted, and I believe the ballots are destroyed after an election. So what would you use as evidence? Remember, innocent until PROVEN guilty in our court system, with NO way to prove it was you.

If we didn't have to have a photo ID drivers' license, only proof that you passed a driver test. (good luck with that being legit with no photo to prove it was YOU who passed the test) And we didn't have to have license plates on our cars, How many people do you think would show up in traffic court if a red light camera caught your car running a light? Remember, no way to prove it was your car (no plates) or that it was you driving. I could scream from the rooftops, See! Extreemly low red light violations !!

How do "poor" people obtain or cash their government benefits with no photo ID? What bank cashes government checks without positive ID? You are aware that photo ID is mandatory to attend an Obama event. Isn't that discriminating against the poor who want to see their benefactor? DUH!

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/26/2012 9:26:38 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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quote:

How can anyone "prove" there is no voter fraud?


It's incumbent on you to prove there is, Sparky.

Logic is a bitch.

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RE: There is NO VOTER FRAUD in Pennsylvania... - 7/26/2012 10:22:38 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
I've argued from the start, erieangel, that the Voter ID concept was a violation of the 4th Amendment. I dont recall those who lived in the original 13 colonies needing to show their photo ID to vote. Why should I have to show mine, some 220+ years later? I've never had to show my ID to vote. I stated who I am and where I live to the nice folks at the voting house. If someone doesnt believe I'm either {A} Who I state I am or {B} Where I live is corrected. Guess what? Its up to them to come up with the burden of evidence....NOT ME!


So, if you are ahead of me in line and either claim you are the guy living next to me, or that you live on the other side of me, I'm supposed to go and prove you aren't, even though I know you aren't? How am I to do that? I can step up and say, "that is not (neighbor's name). (Name) is my neighbor, and this guy is not (Name)." Or, I can say, "I live next to that house and this guy here does not live there." In either case, whether my claim is true or not, proof has not been offered. Until it's verified, I can not prove you don't live next to me, even though I know, for certain, you do not live next to me.

Now, had you taken the excruciatingly laborious and painful steps to take out your wallet and photo ID...


Depending on the state, your argument is flawed.

Strict vs. Non-Strict: In the "strict" states, a voter cannot cast a valid ballot without first presenting ID. Voters who are unable to show ID at the polls are given a provisional ballot. Those provisional ballots are kept separate from the regular ballots. If the voter returns to election officials within a short period of time after the election (generally a few days) and presents acceptable ID, the provisional ballot is counted. If the voter does not come back to show ID, that provisional ballot is never counted.

Photo vs. Non-Photo: Seventeen states require that the ID presented at the polls must show a photo of the voter. Some of these are "strict" voter ID laws, in that voters who fail to show photo ID are given a provisional ballot and must eventually show photo ID in order to get that provisional ballot counted. Others are "non-strict," and voters without ID have other options for casting a regular ballot. They may be permitted to sign an affidavit of identity, or poll workers may be able to vouch for them if they know them personally. In these "non-strict" states, voters who fail to bring ID on Election Day aren't required to return to election officials and show ID in order to have their ballot counted. In the other 16 voter ID states, there is a wide array of IDs that are acceptable for voting purposes, some of which do not include a photo of the voter. Again, some of these states are "strict" in the sense that a voter who fails to bring ID on Election Day will be required to vote a provisional ballot, and that provisional ballot will be counted only if the voter returns to election officials within a few days to show acceptable ID.

http://www.ncsl.org/legislatures-elections/elections/voter-id.aspx


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