RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (Full Version)

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Winterapple -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/26/2012 9:05:10 PM)

I read an article once that talked about how to many
options can paralyze people. The you can do
or be whatever you want thing becomes
I have no idea what I want to be or do.

I admit I can be indecisive about some
things and I do find relief and freedom
in being in a relationship where many
of the decisions are made by someone
else. It doesn't free me of all decision
making. Professionally I have to make
decisions, in areas of personal respondsibility
I have to make decisions and in areas
where I have strong opinions or knowledge
I make decisions.

But other stuff I'm very happy to let
others decide. Restaurant with a huge
menu? Please order for me. Meatloaf
tonight, roast chicken tomorrow night?
Great. We're going to Key West for vacation?
Cool, when do I need to start packing?
We're going to make the Christmas tree
out of Ginger ale bottles this year?
I'll start stockpiling. And only red
ornaments and star on top not a
angel? Whew, thanks babe you just
took a load off Fanny.




BitaTruble -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/26/2012 11:09:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

I don't want to get into a discussion of neurotransmitters, but it has been shown that making decisions takes a toll on the brain. I also know that it could work both ways: "Slave get in the kitchen and make mealoaf for dinner" (Dom makes the decision) vs. "Slave get in the kitchen and make dinner' (slave has the obligation and has to make the decision.)

I've rambled on long enough - have at it.


Meatloaf for dinner alleviates me from having to 'guess' what he wants. I prefer that option to any other and I like to nourish that part of me that enjoy's that sort of thing.

On the other hand, I love to cook so getting to be creative, invent and express a new flavor palate is very appealing. It just nourishes a different part of me.

Being less than satisfied.. hmm.. I tend towards being very grateful for anything I happen to receive. I'll have wait and see how I react the next time I'm faced with multiple options and see how happy I am afterwards although I'm not sure how I would be able to tell the difference. The grass is often greener after all.. or at least it can seem that way when viewed from a distance.





graceadieu -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/26/2012 11:37:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

I am wondering how many submissives enjoy the freedom from choice as well as the aspect of service. None of the posts I've read here recently have touched on that.


Well, obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but that's the case for me. I do get stressed out and kind of stuck about some decisions, because I fret and worry and over-analyze the situation. Having someone else decide for is relaxing. It's done, the decision is made already, and I don't have to worry about it.




FrostedFlake -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/26/2012 11:56:25 PM)

quote:

A very short explanation: One of the most basic assumptions of Western society is that freedom is important and every should have choices since this enhances satisfaction. This is good and healthy.

Research, however, has shown that too many choices can actually be detrimental to satisfaction. He uses several examples but I'll use my own:


The research is flawed. No one wants to live in a World of few choices.

No, I did not take twenty minutes to watch the film. I simply visualized North Korea, and then South Korea, and noted which way the folks jumping the border are headed.




RaspberryLemon -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/27/2012 1:46:32 AM)

Interesting thread.

I do find myself sometimes indecisive when he delegates a decision to me. He is not a micro-manager and does delegate certain decisions to me that are pretty much a staple in our lives. For instance, he nearly never tells me what to wear specifically (beyond things like "bring a jacket, you will want it later" or something similar,) he just expects I wear something he approves of--I don't find this particular choice hard to make nor does it take a long time for me to do so. For this and many other decisions I'm expected or asked to make, I don't get caught up in it and it doesn't stress me out. I just do it.

However, certain choices are more difficult to make. I don't know what it is. I love variety (50 ice cream flavors as opposed to 5? I actually have FUN looking through all of them and deciding which ones sound the tastiest and which ones we want to try, even if it DOES take a little bit when I get caught up between 3 or so favorites) and trying and inventing and doing new things. But this doesn't stop me from feeling stressed out when he asks me to make a choice and I'm feeling indecisive (for whatever reason) about it. One thing I do find is that when decisions are more time sensitive (ordering at a restaurant or fast food window, etc.) that I tend to freeze up more.

When I AM having trouble making a decision delegated to me, my feelings match how littlewonder described it perfectly:
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
If I have to decide I get frustrated and fluttered. I either can't think of anything or I think of too many things and I end up just hesitating and procrastinating and going back to him to help me decide which again makes me upset because I hate bothering him.
For instance we stop for a quick snack at a fast food window and he leaves it up to me to decide what I want, I will ask him what I should get, and the answer will be something like "whatever you want." I get a little flustered and stressed out because people are waiting on me to make that decision, and I know he's wanting me to make it and not come back to him for help. In those situations I start over-thinking, which takes even more time, and eventually I end up just mentally flipping a coin and picking something.

Like with the ice cream flavor example, I will love going through those 50 flavors and finding interesting ones. Generally in this type of instance if he's giving me a choice on it this time, I will go through and pick 3 or so favorites and then get stuck, so I ask him to pick from those because I can't decide and it makes it easier on me. With these little choices I always end up being able to come down to a 2 or 3 choices but get stuck there.

Mostly, he is willing to help me and pick for me in those instances to get me "unstuck." But sometimes he keeps the choice completely up to me--after all, he said "choose" not "ask me again." He does this because he wants me to become better and more comfortable making these choices, because he feels that's healthy for me and he doesn't always want to choose every little thing for me--he is a big picture person. And it's up to him, so this is what I try to do. Thankfully, patience is one of his strongest traits, so even though like I said he is a big-picture person (as opposed to me being a detail-oriented one) and he doesn't understand having so much trouble deciding, he doesn't rush me or get angry when I find I am stuck. He just waits for me to get unstuck. I do find this patience takes most of the stress out of it.

As an addition, I find that when faced with larger decisions that aren't delegated to me (they are rarely delegated to me but my input is always required by him and crucial to his decision-making process) I find it is pretty easy to know where my opinion stands. I would not, however, enjoy a situation where those big type decisions were my responsibility to make for someone because that would make me panicky about people counting on me and what if I make the wrong decision, etc. He on the other hand enjoys that responsibility and leadership, and the ability to make these choices--to lead, to make the big decisions for us. In the end, I'm comfortable with how he runs things and how much "freedom of choice" he gives me. I am glad that it works out the way it does.

Whew, long post. I didn't expect it to take so many words to explain my sometimes indecisiveness. I guess it's a bit complicated (and I am not entirely certain on what makes a "hard" decision for me, other than time-sensitivity) but there you go.




crazyml -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/27/2012 2:04:50 AM)

Oh fuck me!

Well that settles it.

I have to say that the ability to make a judgement on a body of research without even bothering to look at it is truly fucking awesome.

Or wait a second let me see if I can make a judgement on the value of your comment.

I'm going to do it by visualising a small village in the country side, that is missing an idiot.

Ah yes!

Bless your heart - Just so ya know, this isn't the P&R section....




ARIES83 -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/27/2012 2:14:16 AM)

That sounds cute (being so indecisive).
love it! Heh!

-ARIES




crazyml -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/27/2012 2:15:01 AM)

It's a very interesting piece.

Although, research and debate on the utility of choice has been going on for a long time.

It seems to me that there is an optimal amount of choice, too little or too much and the outcome is suboptimal.

Take the restaurant.. A restaurant with 200 items on the menu makes me nervous. Can they really run a kitchen capable of producing 200 different dishes to the same standard that a similarly sized restaurant that offers only 20 choices? Personally, I think that's a stretch.

The issue of choice is particularly sub-optimal when it comes to truly generic products. Take paracetamol. Why pay 4 bucks for branded paracetamol when the store's own brand is 99c ? It's the same fucking thing. You're buying the same thing, but paying a levy to support the cost of advertising and branding (neither of which have any impact on your actual headache).

Of course I invariably buy the $4.00 paracetamol, because - as a consequence of the advertising - I can readily spot the product on the shelves. So I'm paying a premium of $3.01 in order to make it easier to find headache tablets. Which makes me a bit of a jackass.

I'm unhappy when I feel the choice is too limiting, and slightly irritated when it's to broad.

For years I used to wait to be the last to order when dining out with a group, and I'd always pick one of the dishes that someone else had ordered - it made choosing so much easier.

I also think that I can remember seeing some research that indicated that women tended to be better at dealing with a wide array of choices than men. But I can't for the life of me find it now.




JeffBC -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/27/2012 8:36:57 AM)

I've looked at this closely with Carol. She has no trouble making decisions... at least not any more than the rest of us. Her issue, quite specifically, is when the decision comes down to pitting her desires against someone else's.




littlewonder -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/27/2012 8:54:15 AM)

The fewer choices the happier I am. Even with major decisions I have a difficult time making a choice because I can agree with both sides and see something in both decisions. I've always called myself a "middle of the road" type person. For example, politics. I can't choose a party because I see something inherently good in all and also the negative in all, so I end up rolling it my head and just say "I agree/disagree with all". I analyze....EVERYTHING. Thankfully, like RaspberryLemon, Master is extremely patient with me, most times. He gets impatient sometimes when he makes me choose a punishment or torture or something similar.....then he wants a quick answer usually. He does this on purpose though....it amuses him watching me trying to analyze the decisions. Do I choose what I know he wants or like, or try to take the easier way out and choose something that would be less painful...but knowing him there will be a future consequence to that choice?

It sucks to be this way.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/27/2012 3:42:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Oh, okay.

I'm not intimidated by large arrays. Must be a dom thing. [:D]


WTF is a large array?




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/27/2012 3:43:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Oh, okay.

I'm not intimidated by large arrays. Must be a dom thing. [:D]


WTF is a large array?



A type of telescope, sweetie. And I MEANT that large arrays of CHOICE do not intimidate me. It's why I'm the dom, and why you need to listen better.




kalikshama -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/27/2012 4:09:11 PM)

I like to do research and have no problem making decisions. (This ability is hampered when I'm sleep deprived.) I like to function as a personal assistant to my D and am pleased to do the research for him and present him with a tailored, narrowed list of choices.

Other than disliking vegetables, M isn't very picky about food, so when I first started cooking for him and wanted a change from my repertoire but wasn't sure if it would suit him, I'd send him a few options for him to chose from.

That concludes my D/s response.

Regarding patient autonomy - I disagree with the speaker. My experience is that if I want to find out the risks of a drug or a procedure, I have to look it up myself. None of the anti-depressants prescribed for me worked as well as the one I researched myself. My goal is for us to make good decisions based on their medical knowledge and my knowledge about my body and health but sometimes they don't pull their weight. I had to inform my GYN that death was one of the risks of procedures she was recommending for me. When I read her the list of serious adverse affects she actually said, "I didn't know that."

When I was a teenager and dating, I never knew where I wanted to go or what I wanted to do. This changed by the time I got married, which happened on the small island of Okinawa. I gathered touristy brochures and made lots of suggestions/decisions for us.

I didn't have a problem buying a computer recently - I went into the process with specs and a price range in mind.

When I bought a car in 2005, I had a price range and a target model in mind. I've since watched "An Inconvenient Truth" so for my next car, fuel efficiency is a greater consideration.





kalikshama -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/27/2012 4:10:12 PM)

Because of my food values, I have far less choices in the supermarket once I've eliminated everything with corn syrup and non-organic wheat, corn or soy (etc.) While the average consumer has 175 salad dressing choices, to meet my ingredient and price specs, I only have Newman's Organics line when it's on sale. Added sulfites make me sick and I prefer organically grown grapes, which makes selecting wine a hellova lot easier. Etc.

[image]local://upfiles/1052865/1FBB02A9CF244675BEB4F2E48F1D679D.jpg[/image]




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/27/2012 4:13:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Oh, okay.

I'm not intimidated by large arrays. Must be a dom thing. [:D]


WTF is a large array?



A type of telescope, sweetie. And I MEANT that large arrays of CHOICE do not intimidate me. It's why I'm the dom, and why you need to listen better.


I feel such the fool.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/27/2012 4:15:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Because of my food values, I have far less choices in the supermarket once I've eliminated everything with corn syrup and non-organic wheat, corn or soy (etc.) While the average consumer has 175 salad dressing choices, to meet my ingredient and price specs, I only have Newman's Organics line when it's on sale. Added sulfites make me sick and I prefer organically grown grapes, which makes selecting wine a hellova lot easier. Etc.

[image]local://upfiles/1052865/1FBB02A9CF244675BEB4F2E48F1D679D.jpg[/image]


I've found that McDonalds, while somewhat limited in choices for fat free options, gives me a variety of options as to "Fuck all" and "who gives a shit".

(But that's just me).




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/27/2012 4:26:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Oh, okay.

I'm not intimidated by large arrays. Must be a dom thing. [:D]


WTF is a large array?



A type of telescope, sweetie. And I MEANT that large arrays of CHOICE do not intimidate me. It's why I'm the dom, and why you need to listen better.



Well, I knew THAT!!!! I thought you were going somewhere else.




kalikshama -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/27/2012 4:27:09 PM)

While a low fat diet is least effective when compared to low glycemic and low carb, McDonalds does have salads ranging in fat grams from 0 (side salad) to 22 (Premium Bacon Ranch Crispy Chicken.) Add 2-18 g of fat for the dressings.




samdarella -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/27/2012 9:43:21 PM)

Belonging to Master has made my life much easier. (And a whole lot better and more satisfying) He knows so much about so many things that I ask Him to help me with the decisions on matters He is more knowledgable about. Saves me the trouble of researching something He already understands. And I trust His judgement. He also trusts mine. If I'm closer to the situation and have more of the facts He will defer to me.

I used to tend to over analyze things before making a decision. But life is too short for that. I'd rather regret the things I did than the ones I didn't do. However I know that some options are off the table. That narrows my choices sometimes and makes it easy to decide on a course of action

On most everyday things I still have to make decisions. ResidentSadist doesn't micromanage. If He wants something in particular He will tell me but He often presents me with "slave's choice.". Also it's my job to make His life easier by not bothering Him with small stuff that I am capable of handling.

I agree with others that the more tired I am the harder it is to make a decision. Monday mornings after working 40 hrs in 3 days on little sleep it can take me forever to decide on anything. I've also learned to not make decisions when I've been too sleep deprived as they usually aren't good ones.

It took me so long to decide how to answer I forgot what the question was.




seekingreality -> RE: Submission, Dominance and the Paradox of Choice. (7/27/2012 11:48:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

Research, however, has shown that too many choices can actually be detrimental to satisfaction. H




You have to careful throwing around these sweeping generalizations like "research, however, has shown ..." The paradox of choice -- the connection between choice and anxiety -- has been studied a lot. Some studies support the idea, others don't. From what I've read, the research overall tilts toward rejecting the theory rather than supporting it. But the research isn't really super clear either way.

Also, you have to understand that the video you're citing is from the guy who made up the theory and has spent the last decade promoting it, so he tends to spin it as an absolute and only mentions the research that supports the theory, and not the research that rejects it.

Personally, I find Schwartz approach too simplistic and he makes too many assumptions on pretty flimsy evidence.






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