RE: Difference between dominant and sadist

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LaTigresse -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 10:46:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ullrmann quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse quote: ORIGINAL: Ullrmann I have zero respect for you, Dude, I am going to go out on a proverbial limb here and say.......people would have to actually respect YOU, for that little zinger to have any sting. Nice try though. Better luck flaunting your domly card in your next incarnation. You've pretty well fucked it up in this one. Fucked what up? That implies there was a goal somewhere - what goal? True, nobody will answer the questions about punishment dynamics other than to run for cover and retract previous statements posted to collar chat. Other than that, I don't see what was fucked up? I responded in kind to her calling me a dick. So the in-crowd gets free reign to throw out insults and the new guy doesn't? That's fine, but I have shown respect each step of the way until shown hostility and have not backed down. It is very apparent that you do not see it as well as being very apparent WHY you are not seeing it. I wish you luck. I think you will need it.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 10:46:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ullrmann I have zero respect for you, so your opinion is irrelevant. I never said I was the twue real dominant. I said my way was likely wrong for most and I said and that to each their own on their individual approaches was the right view. I am questioning the hostile criticisms of what I do. You sweetie are the one maintaining the TWUE dogma. Your statements in any English speaking environment would be taken the way I did. You used the word 'I' - true, but the cause and effect relationship included was far more general. There is no intellectual integrity within you which is rather unbecoming in a dominant. Buttercup, I will let you know when I need your respect, I wouldn't recommend holding your breath. Nobody actually criticized you, you decided to take offense and have a childish little tantrum. Yes, I know, everybody is wrong and you show us the only twue way, shall we all hail you as the next self made messiah of BDSM?

LadyPact -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 10:59:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ullrmann I never said EVERYBODY was picking on me. I said the comments were scattered across the boards, that I disagree with them, find them offensive and incorrect, and have been asking questions which routinely fail to be answered. There is no equation or constant relevant to any of that. Some have been hostile and I've called them out on it. The rest haven't and your overgeneralizing my statements fits right in with the willful ignorance I commented on earlier. Have more intellectual integrity than that. For what it's worth, if you are finding criticisms across various threads, it may be easier to address such points on the threads where they appear with the posters who made the comments. Frankly, I didn't know what the situation was about until kalikshama was good enough to give some background. I got out of the 50 Shades of bullshit thread for the most part, so I didn't see that exchange. Plenty of folks around this joint are more than willing to say a certain type of dynamic wouldn't work for them. Personally, I don't take that kind of thing as criticism. It just means that they wouldn't be suited for My way. Not that My way is wrong or they are going for the one true way. It's just that we're different. You mentioned the one strike and you're out style earlier. Hey, I happen to think some areas should be one strike and you're out and people disagree with Me about that all of the time. Infidelity from My slave would be one example, but some people don't agree. In My mind, no spanking is going to fix that. I'm rather confident about the way I run this particular show. When I'm not, people know something is up. My philosophy was very well stated in My old sig line. "I really appreciate your opinion and all, but My dynamic is not a democracy and you don't get a vote."

Ullrmann -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 11:03:45 AM)
This was started in this thread because of one of your posts which I thought was taking the position I wanted to question and LC clearly posted the same position I wanted to question. Now the cognitive dissidence many are demonstrating has reached a comical point with this group - which is really funny, but still fails to produce any answers to the question. Stating how your way works for you and not the one true way is just repeating the clarification you made a while ago and I will repeat for those who have been sorely hard of reading. At no point have I criticized anyone for following their own personal approach. I only am challenging those who seek to disparage my approach for not fitting their one true way and then criticizing them for being too cowardly to address the question of why. I appreciate how you have not responded with any childish hostility in the thread and I will show respect to others who can do the same. Obviously you have a rare skill at being able to engage in a calm conversation which might result in more than clique posturing.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 11:13:56 AM)
Now somebody with a minimal reading comprehension would realize that you hadn't even posted when I replied to another poster about how I handle punishment in my dynamics, then you came in and decided that you were attacked (yeah, we're so psychic we knew what you were saying before you even showed up) and had your "I'm the uber-domme, you all know nothing, how dare you disagree with me" wobble. Did you ever wonder that if you're so weal and twue, how come then that your punishment obviously works so little that you have to repeat it all the time, ooops, yes, it gets her wet and turns her on... How punishing.... Hey, if you're having fun, cool, just why do you have to convince us all that you're doing it right and we're not understanding? Shouldn't you be happy that it works for you and turns your wife on? Do you really need to convince all of us to feel dominant?

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 11:19:04 AM)
Well, you are good at condescension toward women, at least. Enjoy your time here.

kalikshama -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 11:23:49 AM)
The way you toss around the words "hostile" and "reading comprehension" guarantees negative reactions. quote: ORIGINAL: Ullrmann quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub I didn't see hostility in LP's post. I saw her say that if she needed to use pain, she would need to hang it up. Not that anyone who needed to use it was wrong. I am sure she will let me know if I read that wrong. Apparently you have trouble with reading comprehension - that's not hostile because it is the same level of response as: quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact It may help you a great deal in learning about BDSM to read a NON-fiction book about it. Things that are written in books seem to sink in very well with you, whether they are true or not. So, it was just as hostile as I am demonstrating to you now, and I am letting you know you are wrong. I didn't see LadyPact as hostile either. Perhaps you are unaware of the context for her comments, which was KateMid's repeated insistence that 50 Shades match reality in this thread and I think others. Lizi explains it best: quote: ...the persistence of the OP to keep clinging to the words of a fantasy novel instead of listening to real life accounts is bugging me to no end. It's great OP that you're trying to learn about things, but you keep coming back in the discussion you started to throw up yet another example from this fictitious book complete with quotes or references from the book, when people keep telling you over and over that it doesn't happen that way in real life. It's like a child who keeps saying but, but, but, but... The book is an account of someone's idea of what BDSM and D/s means to them. It's not a guidebook or how-to manual. So many posters have taken the time to carefully explain how they do things in their lives and you seem to keep bypassing those explanations by in favor of offering up yet one more time another example of how the book portrays things. It's great that you used this book to jumpstart a conversation about a topic you'd like to learn more about, how about moving on down the road of enlightenment now and accepting what was offered to you as answers on the questions you asked? This book is fiction. The author had a story to tell. It isn't real. On the other hand the people answering you on this thread are giving you REAL LIFE information. Why are you clinging so hard to fantasy when reality is right in front of you? If you get anything from this thread at all realize that every couple does things differently and nothing is set in stone.

Ullrmann -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 11:23:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus Well, you are good at condescension toward women, at least. Enjoy your time here. crazyml is a woman? I responded to him the same way as the women.

kalikshama -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 11:28:27 AM)
quote: I only am challenging those who seek to disparage my approach for not fitting their one true way and then criticizing them for being too cowardly to address the question of why. I'm not seeing any one true wayism here - lots of "it wouldn't work for me." Perhaps you would be so kind as to quote examples of where people suggested their way was the only way to discipline.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 11:36:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ullrmann quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus Well, you are good at condescension toward women, at least. Enjoy your time here. crazyml is a woman? I responded to him the same way as the women. Did he get called a silly little girl? I missed that! :) How about 'sweetie"?

Ullrmann -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 11:38:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama The way you toss around the words "hostile" and "reading comprehension" guarantees negative reactions. quote: ORIGINAL: Ullrmann quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub I didn't see hostility in LP's post. I saw her say that if she needed to use pain, she would need to hang it up. Not that anyone who needed to use it was wrong. I am sure she will let me know if I read that wrong. Apparently you have trouble with reading comprehension - that's not hostile because it is the same level of response as: quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact It may help you a great deal in learning about BDSM to read a NON-fiction book about it. Things that are written in books seem to sink in very well with you, whether they are true or not. So, it was just as hostile as I am demonstrating to you now, and I am letting you know you are wrong. I didn't see LadyPact as hostile either. Perhaps you are unaware of the context for her comments, which was KateMid's repeated insistence that 50 Shades match reality in this thread and I think others. Take the thread in context and I was responding in kind to how I had been addressed. I won't back down on the statement being hostile, but I challenged LP on the hostility of the statement and she responded with an explanation of where the inferred hostility was coming from. It was already addressed, resolved, and closed in this thread - unless somehow I am still misunderstanding something LP wants to address with me. On that same 50 shades context note - there were multiple statements made in a black and white no exceptions manner directly criticizing the approach I take as being fake, not done in real life, not something a weal dominant would do, etc. Those posts combined with the identified posts on this tread from LP and LC are what triggered my original post here. So now I am curious - why does LP get the benefit of using context from posts made on other threads but I am prohibited from using the same context? I never realized the anti-punishment dynamic dogma on collar chat was so ingrained as to not be able to cope with facing a challenge on an intellectual level. LC won't even allow me the context of my own statements in this thread. Very interesting how fearful some are of their dogma being questioned.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 11:40:18 AM)
What is your PURPOSE in punishing? Is it "you did something and now I am doing X because I can"? Or is it intended to be some sort of DETERRENT?

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 11:41:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama I believe this post of Ishtarr's prompted the discussion: http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4179797 Actually not at all. That post of mine was a reply to AthenaSurrenders in which she mentioned that for the last couple of weeks, she had been feeling a lot of hostility around the boards towards punishment dynamics. I responded that I had noticed that too. The reason we're both feeling that way is due to an accumulation of posts on various other treads, which I'm not all going to mention here, but I'll give some examples so that maybe it's more clear why both my husband and me, as well as AthenaSurrenders feel that we're being told that our way of doing things is wrong, juvenile and somehow messed up. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: KateMid Maybe the kind of orders She gives and punishments or discipline She doles out if disobeyed. I googled a lot on the net and found some stuff that could be hot, some not so much. ORIGINAL: LadyPact Punishment is a bad thing. Do you recall any punishments from childhood that you enjoyed? It's not supposed to be fun. People with any sort of decent experience at this don't punish for stupid stuff. Again, that's game playing and almost insulting because it's being looked at as a fantasy. I'm a sadist. I don't beat him because he burned the eggs. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4182491 So the newbie needs to know: - punshment is always bad, for everybody, anybody who thinks it's hot is wrong. Anybody who punishes for small (stupid) things has obviously no experience and is, playing just a game, making it a fantasy and therefore being insulting to actual BDSMers. quote: ORIGINAL: Endivius I don't get where everyone (mostly newbies) keeps mentioning punishments as being some kind of hot exciting thing. Punishments are not something to look forward to. It isn't meant to be fun and exciting. Do you really think you could get hot and wet if I put you in chastity for three months? How about if I had you stand in the corner for an hour or just ignored you completely for a day? Punishments and dynamics built around them are not what BDSM is really about, at least not to me anyway. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4183027 Again, if you think punishments are hot, you're probably a newbie, and you're doing it wrong. Because punishments are bad period. They're not fun, and not just in my dynamic, but for everybody. If you can and do get hot from the punishments I mention, something is wrong with you. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Endivius, I honestly think the 'punishment is hot' mentality comes from various forms of fiction. That's almost always been porn, especially for males. (Sorry, but it's geared to males.) Then, there was crap people read on the net that was fantasy driven. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4183147 So anybody who thinks punishment is hot has a fiction and porn inspired dynamic that's fantasy driven. quote: ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel Punishment is painful to both parties. I do use punishment, but never for simple mistakes. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4183212 Again a relationship specific truism stated in such a way to a newbie that it can only come across as if this is necessarily the way it works for everybody: punishment is painful to both parties. With again the implication being (especially consider the context of the thread to which this post is a reply) that anybody for whom this isn't true is obviously doing something wrong, or doesn't get "it". quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus Okay, one more time: PUNISHMENT IS NOT HOT. Punishment is BAD. It means you did something wrong, and are suffering as a result. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4183393 Again, in response to a newbie asking if it's possible for anybody to find punishment (or certain types of punishment) hot the answer is: "NO, that's impossible. Nobody ever finds punishment hot! Again with the implication that this is the "one true way®" and that it's impossible for the newbie to find what she thinks she is looking for, and that it's impossible that other people do things in the way the newbie is asking about. ~ So in the span of just a few pages there I've basically been told that I'm: - wrong - juvenile - inexperienced - do not exist at all - my husband is wrong - our relationship is a fantasy - our relationship is strictly porn based - we're both newbies - he punishes me for the wrong stuff - he punishes me in the wrong way This all with several people applauding and agreeing with the above quoted posts, and not a single user (but me) trying to provide a more nuanced view to the newbie by explaining that, while everything above quoted is true for most all people on this specific board, it is not a generalization that applies to ALL kinky people in the way it's been presented. I could go on with other examples from that same thread, or could pull out a bunch of other examples from various other threads that have passed the revue recently. However, if it's not clear from the examples I've just given why exactly I feel the board has been creating a very hostile environment towards punishment dynamics lately, I don't really know what else there is to say. As abrasive as he may sometimes be, all my husband is trying to ask is: why is our way of doing it wrong/juvenile/not allowed? While other forms of punishment dynamics we consider much more abrasive than ours are so easily accepted on this board (while at the same time, neither of us has ever said to anybody on this board that THEIR way of conducting a punishment dynamic is ANY of the things we've been accused of over the last few weeks.)

kalikshama -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 11:42:06 AM)
quote: I showed you where you were insulting to me. Here? quote: ORIGINAL: Ullrmann quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze What you are missing is the understanding, nobody tells you how to run your dynamic, I said for ME... Here's your previous statement. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze Sadism is for my pleasure and not punishment, if I need to beat or punish somebody to have control, then I've failed as a dominant, then I'm just a bully. Punishment for transgressions would be ignoring the person or giving the person a task they don't like. The structure of your sentence casts anyone who beats or punishes somebody to have control as a bully and a failed dominant. I beat and punish as a tool to maintain control so your statement is directly offensive to me and telling my I am not a TWUE dominant. So sweetie, knock off the innocent routine. A TWUE dominant has the conviction of principles to stand behind their statements on not try to weasel out of them. Actually, what you did was inaccurately take LadyContanze's "I" statements and turned them into a judgement about your own dynamic, which she has repeatedly told you was not her intent.

Ullrmann -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 11:46:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus What is your PURPOSE in punishing? Is it "you did something and now I am doing X because I can"? Or is it intended to be some sort of DETERRENT? For punishment, it is a consequence for bad behavior - so yes, a deterrent. The whole "X because I can" is satisfied from the S&M play element in our relationship. Are you going somewhere with this? I have already stated this position.

kalikshama -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 11:49:21 AM)
quote: why does LP get the benefit of using context from posts made on other threads but I am prohibited from using the same context? I happened to understood her context. I don't understand yours. It's not reasonable to presume that everybody will know the context, which is why I put a lot of effort into providing it. Probably other people feel the same as LadyPact: For what it's worth, if you are finding criticisms across various threads, it may be easier to address such points on the threads where they appear with the posters who made the comments. Frankly, I didn't know what the situation was about until kalikshama was good enough to give some background.

Ullrmann -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 11:52:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: why does LP get the benefit of using context from posts made on other threads but I am prohibited from using the same context? I happened to understood her context. I don't understand yours. It's not reasonable to presume that everybody will know the context, which is why I put a lot of effort into providing it. Probably other people feel the same as LadyPact: For what it's worth, if you are finding criticisms across various threads, it may be easier to address such points on the threads where they appear with the posters who made the comments. Frankly, I didn't know what the situation was about until kalikshama was good enough to give some background. I already answered that too. I had my reasons - the position was stated in this thread. So I did exactly what was suggested.

LaTigresse -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 11:55:37 AM)
Ishtar, seriously? When people ask generic questions they get generic answers. When people answer generic questions, regardless of however generically they try, they are still going to answer based upon their own personal dynamic and life experience. Most people are smart enough to realize that. I think I pretty much speak for all but two people that have posted on this thread when I say, I do not care AT ALL how you and your husband do things. For ME, from MY perspective, based on what the two of you have written, there is very little power exchange dynamic, but instead you push him until he serves your kink. It works for you and he, it doesn't matter what I think about it. It would not work for me and I wouldn't tolerate it. I may be wrong, but I see a disconnect between your past descriptions of your marriage and what your husband writes. To ME, that would be a problem. Apparently it's not to you, or to him. He gets to believe he is a master and you are a slave, or whatever he believes. You get your kink wet and juicy. All is good. To me, what you have is fucked up. Regardless of gender. Apparently it works for you so I don't care. You and your husband shouldn't care either. When some clueless twit starts asking questions on a website, they are going to get answers based upon the poster's individual filters and life experience. My filter and experience says your marriage is fucked up 3 ways till Thursday. You and he see it differently. Why is what I see, any sort of negative to you? It is very likely that you wouldn't think my life and my ideal relationship dynamics are valid either. Trust me when I say, I don't care. Your opinions do not at all impact me, my life, my relationships. Why on earth you and yours are allowing strangers on the net, to validate or not, your relationship, is beyond me. People are asking for OPINIONS. People are giving OPINIONS. What you think and have is valid for YOU. What I have is valid for ME. Trying to switch dynamics would likely result in ruined relationships. Funny how that works. Neither is right or wrong, just different. People are saying that what you have, what works for you, would be WRONG FOR THEM. For you and yours to get upset or defensive, makes me question how well it is really working for you. Again, not my problem. Just my observation.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 12:02:30 PM)
I know that the current trend is to take words like "submissive" and "dominant" and play with them. I am willing to push the envelope slightly, English is indeed a fine and 'grabby' thing, as Dr Chomsky said. However, when we take a set of words and stretch them to the point where we each need a glossary to communicate, the language has broken down and further discussion is pointless. Punishment is traditionally considered to be a negative consequence to some action or another. Said negative consequence is also intended to be a deterrent to further wrongdoing. As a lifelong trainer of people and animals, I can tell you that constant reprimands are NOT a sign of successful leadership. Too many reprimands, and it's a sign that the training is somehow not appropriate, or the student is simply not going to perform (a thing that can happen when free will enters the picture---not everyone can be motivated). At that juncture, it's time to reevaluate the relationship. If I had to constantly punish someone I would wonder what the hell was going on, because it really is the consensus that punishment is a bad thing. In a d/s context, it's especially bad because it shows that the submissive has failed in some fashion. The chain of command has broken down. Something is WRONG. That is how things work for ME, speaking as a leatherwoman, a master, whatever word you'd like to use. I am in charge, and I do not take kindly to open defiance. If someone wants to beat up their property for mutual entertainment, that's wonderful. I often did the same, for no better reason than BECAUSE I COULD. It entertained me. It entertained him, too. It was in no way to be misconstrued as PUNISHMENT, which would have been a very unhappy circumstance for us both. If someone wants to say that they are not in any kind of d/s relationship, but give over the authority for a CNS relationship and do as they're told, okay. I don't have any stake in someone else's relationship. I don't understand why we can't call a spade a spade instead of a rake, but truly, I don't have a dog in that fight. Enjoy your lives together, and really, why should you be concerned with those of us who are on a very different path?

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 12:04:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse When people ask generic questions they get generic answers. Except that people weren't asking generic questions at all at all. Instead what we had was a newbie asking a very specific question regarding the possibility of things: I have no experiences with this at all. I'm imagining things this way. I want to ask you all if this is possible for anybody to do/find engage in. And the resolute answer was: NO! That's impossible. Nobody does that. Any if anybody does they are inexperienced wrong, juvenile, wankers and fantasy players who based their dynamic on porn. Now if the starting question would have been: "I'm wondering if anybody of you has build your dynamic X way." And the answer would have been: "No, I don't do that, because it doesn't work for me for these reasons. But there is no true way in BDSM, and it is therefore possible for other people to do things differently." That would have been a completely different vibe, and not something at all I would have taken the least bit offense at. But apparently this board is just completely anti-twue-way-ism... up until the point a newbie asks a controversial question. And suddenly the twue-way applies to everybody, lest they be labeled an idiot.

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