RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (Full Version)

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UllrsIshtar -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 2:08:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

How many people love, and get horny out of their mind by being made to do things they consider to be humiliating, EXACTLY because the humiliating act they are "made" to do is something they don't like?


I don't know about for anyone else but the reason I like humiliation play isn't because I don't like what he is doing but because he has that power over me for me to want to give that to him, to do anything he wants me to do because I love him and I love the power he has over me.



That's actually a much better way of putting it than the way I did. The fact that he's got the power (as in the fortitude to attach consequences to my actions) to punish me is exactly what turns me on about it. Not the punishment itself. It's the fact that he knows I have a severe love/hate relationship with the punishment, and will do it anyways, regardless of my dislike of it in the moment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

So again, I can see the differences between you and others here who have more of a d/s or M/s dynamic where there is an unequal balance in power.



And it may very well be that the reason for our apparently "bizarre" and "atypical" dynamic is the fact that I'm severely damaged goods.
6 years ago, I wouldn't even have considered starting a relationship with somebody on an equal footing. All I wanted back then was to find the right person to start an unequally based M/s dynamic with.
However, currently, even if my husband and I would somehow split up, or he'd pass away or something, there isn't a single hair on my head that would EVER for a second consider again starting a relationship with somebody on an unequal footing to facilitate a M/s or D/s dynamic.



LadyPact -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 2:10:20 PM)

Ishtarr, thank you for expanding. I'm still a little fuzzy as to why you felt your way of doing things was being attacked when it was being discussed during a D/s themed thread, especially when you are very adamant that you are not D/s. That could be because I'm more rigid about those definitions.

I also happen to still believe that porn or erotica are not the best educational tools for D/s or BDSM in general. Might be a good idea for a hot scene or particular time frame, but they skip all of the stuff that goes with it. I'd have to say that if there is any one true way thinking going on, it's the folks who are exposed to one piece of fiction and believe that is how everything works to the core. When running across someone who sees 50 Shades as the Bible of BDSM, it's a bad sign.

I do appreciate your explanation.


Edited for a wandering "a".




sexyred1 -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 2:13:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Why would you take answers given to a clueless newbie whose entire worldview on BDSM was formed by reading 50 Shades of Gray and apply it to your own dynamic?



Because the newbie wasn't just told that 50 shades is unrealistic. She was told that anybody who gets wet from punishment is a juvenile, inexperiences, porn-driven wanker who is doing it wrong, and that their very existence is insulting to serious BDSMers.
Considering that I'm somebody who gets wet from punishment, it was rather hard not to take the fact that my very existence is apparently an insult to various people on this board as a personal insult.


This thread has devolved into ridiculousness.

Why are you or anyone so offended by the opinions of others?

Do you honestly care what anyone outside of your relationship cares on how your relationship is structured?

I can only assume that you and your husband (who does seem rather agitated in this thread) must feel somewhat insecure about your dynamic, otherwise why on earth would you be freaking out so much over the advice given to someone ELSE and then bringing it all up here again.

As for the comments about "in crowd or cliques", that is always the way posters who are frustrated by not hearing what they want start to throw out there.

The initial OP could have been a very interesting sharing of ideas and opinions. It has gone to people getting insulted for no reason. No one has to agree with anyone here, you know that.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 2:19:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

But in my case... I fucking loved a) her conflict b) her submission to it c) her reaction to it.

that is until... it seemed that schoolroom was the only thing we ever did.


That seems to be about my husband's reaction to it as well. And what you're describing is extremely close to what we currently have.

Except that the "real situation of jeopardy created" in our situation is:

- flawless Martha Steward-esque housekeeping to a ridiculous degree
- becoming a master-chef equivalent in the kitchen
- becoming limber and flexible enough to be able to breeze through every kamasutra position with ease
- becoming athletic enough to run a half marathon
- becoming strong enough to bench more than half the guys at the local gym can
- work on pose, grace and posture until my daily subconscious movement have the fluency, grace and elegance of a trained dancer
- following his every smallest instruction, whim or mention, to the most minute of details (to the point that accidentally burned eggs would be cause for a beating unless he instructed me to serve them so)

And that's just for now, I know that learning to program iPhones, setting up a budget and balancing it to the last penny, becoming more receptacle to orgasms, learning to do full flawless make up, and doing a whole bunch of home improvement projects are on the list for things to add as time goes on.

As far as specific kink activities goes, just about the only thing we currently don't seem to do is schoolroom play. [:D]



crazyml -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 2:23:23 PM)

Well... given that your dynamic is a tad more grounded in real life shit, I'm thinking your relationship has a better chance of longevity than mine did!



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 2:30:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Ishtarr, thank you for expanding. I'm still a little fuzzy as to why you felt your way of doing things was being attacked when it was being discussed during a D/s themed thread, especially when you are very adamant that you are not D/s. That could be because I'm more rigid about those definitions.



I don't think there is any point in expanding on that further at this point, unless you'd like to take it to CMail.
I've said why. Others have disagreed.
There wouldn't be a message board if that never happened.

Oh well, such is life.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I also happen to still believe that porn or erotica are not the best educational tools for D/s or BDSM in general.




I do agree with that. However, at the same time I don't think it's a good idea to focus advice to newbies only/mostly on the nature of 24/7 TPE dynamics.
Newbies are rarely ever, if ever at all, ready for such relationships. As such, it seems hardly useful to bring up how exactly being in 24/7 TPE dynamics handle things, because a newbie won't be able to wrap their head around that anyways.
Instead, explaining much more elaborate and in more detail that tons of people have play dynamic only, or bottom/top dynamics only, or not kind of formal structure to their BDSM play at all, seems more useful for newbies. Questions about TPE specific subjects should obviously not be ignored, but I think that they at the same time need to be prefaced with the fact that TPE relationship do not by any means at all represent the majority of BDSM dynamics.

I feel that those kinds of explanations where somewhat lacking in that thread, and instead everybody focussed more on how their specific 24/7 TPE dynamics works in detail.
(Which is btw not what offended me at all... just something I think you as the educator that you are should be aware of this as being one of the opinions to how that thread came across.)



LadyPact -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 2:48:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
I don't think there is any point in expanding on that further at this point, unless you'd like to take it to CMail.
I've said why. Others have disagreed.
There wouldn't be a message board if that never happened.

Oh well, such is life.
Various posts to others have added to it. The additional questions that I have would be based on My own curiosity, aren't suited for the boards, and are most likely none of My business.


quote:

I do agree with that. However, at the same time I don't think it's a good idea to focus advice to newbies only/mostly on the nature of 24/7 TPE dynamics.
Newbies are rarely ever, if ever at all, ready for such relationships. As such, it seems hardly useful to bring up how exactly being in 24/7 TPE dynamics handle things, because a newbie won't be able to wrap their head around that anyways.
Instead, explaining much more elaborate and in more detail that tons of people have play dynamic only, or bottom/top dynamics only, or not kind of formal structure to their BDSM play at all, seems more useful for newbies. Questions about TPE specific subjects should obviously not be ignored, but I think that they at the same time need to be prefaced with the fact that TPE relationship do not by any means at all represent the majority of BDSM dynamics.

I feel that those kinds of explanations where somewhat lacking in that thread, and instead everybody focussed more on how their specific 24/7 TPE dynamics works in detail.
(Which is btw not what offended me at all... just something I think you as the educator that you are should be aware of this as being one of the opinions to how that thread came across.)
There's more than one thread by that particular poster. My response during one of them was the difference, to Me, about the difference between D/s and topping and bottoming. Another of My opinions that isn't very popular. I say, if you want to explore, casual play might just be the way to go. I see tops and bottoms more as equal during negotiations and allows people to experience various sensations and such. Of course, this brings up different concerns about negotiations, safety, and a bunch of other things that are far beyond this particular topic.




kalikshama -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 3:07:36 PM)

quote:

Except that the "real situation of jeopardy created" in our situation is:

- flawless Martha Steward-esque housekeeping to a ridiculous degree
- becoming a master-chef equivalent in the kitchen
- becoming limber and flexible enough to be able to breeze through every kamasutra position with ease
- becoming athletic enough to run a half marathon
- becoming strong enough to bench more than half the guys at the local gym can
- work on pose, grace and posture until my daily subconscious movement have the fluency, grace and elegance of a trained dancer
- following his every smallest instruction, whim or mention, to the most minute of details (to the point that accidentally burned eggs would be cause for a beating unless he instructed me to serve them so)

And that's just for now, I know that learning to program iPhones, setting up a budget and balancing it to the last penny, becoming more receptacle to orgasms, learning to do full flawless make up, and doing a whole bunch of home improvement projects are on the list for things to add as time goes on.


In other words, a set-up for failure to guarantee the desired beatings.



mnottertail -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 3:10:22 PM)

It is Martha Stewart.   Submit yourself for a beating..........



kalikshama -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 3:11:34 PM)

I want my trooper/speeder fantasy first!



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 3:17:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

In other words, a set-up for failure to guarantee the desired beatings.


Somewhat, yes.

With the qualification that punishment doesn't necessarily implies beatings, and are in fact more often things like time-outs and so on.
So "a set-up for failure to guarantee the desired punishment" would be more accurate.

Also, beatings don't necessarily imply punishment, considering that most times he's beaten me it was for his own amusement.

And the objective of the punishments aren't to deter failure in general, but to deter individual mistakes made along the way.
A punishment for failing to pay attention while navigating has as its objective to make me pay more attention the next time I'm navigating, and therefore make the action of navigating in and of itself an erotic experience.
The punishment doesn't have as its objective to make me less likely to fail in general, because failing less in general precisely takes what makes our dynamic erotic and fun for me out of the equation.

You know how so many times on this board something like this is said:

"24/7 TPE isn't all erotic all day long. I don't clean the house in heels and nipple clamps all the time."

Well, for me that isn't true. Our dynamic IS all erotic all day long for me. Precisely because the fact that next time I'm in the car expecting to navigate, and know that last time I failed to do so I got punished, navigating in and of itself will become erotic for me.
I do clean the house in heels and nipple clamps all the time... even if sometimes the nipple clamps are only in my head.



crazyml -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 3:18:59 PM)

Quoted for loveliness.


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
I do clean the house in heels and nipple clamps all the time... even if sometimes the nipple clamps are only in my head.




thishereboi -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 3:47:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Why would you take answers given to a clueless newbie whose entire worldview on BDSM was formed by reading 50 Shades of Gray and apply it to your own dynamic?



Because the newbie wasn't just told that 50 shades is unrealistic. She was told that anybody who gets wet from punishment is a juvenile, inexperiences, porn-driven wanker who is doing it wrong, and that their very existence is insulting to serious BDSMers.
Considering that I'm somebody who gets wet from punishment, it was rather hard not to take the fact that my very existence is apparently an insult to various people on this board as a personal insult.


I have a really hard time understanding this. When I am punished it is because I did something wrong and my domme is dissapointed to the point she has to punish me. There is nothing about that that will get me hot. It means I screwed up and if I continue to do that and she has to punish me over and over again, it means I am either unable to learn or I no longer care if she is dissapointed in me. if the relationship hits that point, what would be the point in even staying together.

So please expalin, what is it about punishment that gets you hot?



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 3:56:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

So please expalin, what is it about punishment that gets you hot?



I've made various posts, after the one you quoted, trying to explain.
I'm really at a loss on how to explain it as a general concept in more detail than I've done at this point.

I'm assuming you hadn't gotten to the follow-up explanations yet, if you had, or if you after reading them still don't understand, I'd be more than happy to answer any specific question you may have. But I feel that if I have to explain it again in a general sense, I'd do nothing but repeat myself.



sheisreeds -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 4:19:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Dominants get off on control. Sadists get off on hurting folks.


This. But a lot of dominants are also sadists, and a lot of sadists have dominant tendencies. Some people are sadists, masochists, dominants, and submissives all in one crazy package.

It's not one or the other for most people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

How many people love, and get horny out of their mind by being made to do things they consider to be humiliating, EXACTLY because the humiliating act they are "made" to do is something they don't like?


I don't know about for anyone else but the reason I like humiliation play isn't because I don't like what he is doing but because he has that power over me for me to want to give that to him, to do anything he wants me to do because I love him and I love the power he has over me.

If I was with someone else say in a casual relationship, it wouldn't turn me on at all because they wouldn't have that power over me and it's not something I like. I would just tell the person I'm not doing it and walk away.

So again, I can see the differences between you and others here who have more of a d/s or M/s dynamic where there is an unequal balance in power.


Couple things on this, so much of why you like humiliation play is why I enjoy it so much in my relationship, however we are equals within the relationship. Though we have a consensual non-consent dynamic.

It's not that I am being humiliated that turns me on, in fact most of his breed of ridiculous actually starts to turn me off. Though there is this very special level where it is affection in it's purest form. I love that he can make me feel that vulnerable and that upset, and in the end he just loves me more.

I don't think it is necessarily the division of power, but the amount of choice and input the humiliated party has regarding what is happening. I can fight, and I can say no, and if I beg and make cute little no and eww noises long enough it'll be respected. Though a lot of time that just means I get something hard and swift when he's in that mode, as in it's done before I get a chance to protest.

What's interesting is the humiliation and the mocking is one thing that doesn't tend to go both ways. Largely because he is pretty hard to humiliate.



thishereboi -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 4:30:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

So please expalin, what is it about punishment that gets you hot?



I've made various posts, after the one you quoted, trying to explain.
I'm really at a loss on how to explain it as a general concept in more detail than I've done at this point.

I'm assuming you hadn't gotten to the follow-up explanations yet, if you had, or if you after reading them still don't understand, I'd be more than happy to answer any specific question you may have. But I feel that if I have to explain it again in a general sense, I'd do nothing but repeat myself.



I think I understand it now. thanks



littlewonder -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 4:49:53 PM)

quote:

I can say no, and if I beg and make cute little no and eww noises long enough it'll be respected.


That is the difference imo. You get to say no and it will be respected.

I can say no but then our relationship would be completely different. It would mean we are now on equal power which changes the tpe and I think both of us would not be very satisfied in the relationship at that point.

Yours would continue because you do not already have that tpe established. You both agree that when you say no he will stop doing what he's doing and vice versa.



sheisreeds -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 4:58:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

I can say no, and if I beg and make cute little no and eww noises long enough it'll be respected.


That is the difference imo. You get to say no and it will be respected.

I can say no but then our relationship would be completely different. It would mean we are now on equal power which changes the tpe and I think both of us would not be very satisfied in the relationship at that point.

Yours would continue because you do not already have that tpe established. You both agree that when you say no he will stop doing what he's doing and vice versa.


Not necessarily. It's his choice if it is respected or not. I do have permission to turn it around and sometimes I do. There is a price to be paid regardless.

There is only one kind of no that really means no, and in that regard there is no similarity at all to TPE. Yes, for us that "no" does exist. Certain psychological triggers when tripped stop everything, and that applies equally to both of us. I've tripped his and he's tripped mine, and those weak spots have almost all been found through play.

However, those moments when everything has to stop at risk of serious psychological damage, those moments lead to some really important revelations of their own. Nothing like one of us broke down and vulnerable, and the aggressor becomes the caregiver, and we have learned so much. I appreciate those gifts as well. Our most intimate moments have always come from pushing through these boundaries. While curled up in fetal submission with the voice of a terrified 5 year old may not be very sexy, it is very powerful and intimate.

If I choose to push back, I accept the consequences of doing so. In our relationship that just happens to be a 2 way street. We're just 2 evil children who never stop pushing.

I guess the difference is what I get out of the experience is solely his satisfaction.

I wouldn't seek out what he does to me in someone else. I would never put it on a list of fetishes.

He gets so much out of my vulnerability in those moments and that matters to me, sometimes just me getting that vulnerability out of him matters more [:@]

I'm not trying to directly correlate a D/s TPE, and a Switch/switch with a contract that all acts are consensual. It's just interesting that much of the end result and motivation is the same.

The point is I absolute hate, and am terrified, and chances are if it was someone else they'd be kicked to the curb for doing some of the things he has done. However, I appreciate what he gets out of me in those moments, and giving what I give in those moments.

And I absolute love seeing it from him, and I do what I can to get it out of him when I have the urge.

The result is we're closer.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/30/2012 6:00:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sheisreeds

There is only one kind of no that really means no, and in that regard there is no similarity at all to TPE. Yes, for us that "no" does exist. Certain psychological triggers when tripped stop everything, and that applies equally to both of us. I've tripped his and he's tripped mine, and those weak spots have almost all been found through play.



Though most of the rest of your dynamic doesn't resembles ours, this part does.

My husband has free reign to disregard any "no" or protest from me if he wants. Or adhere to them if he wants. It's his choice, and I don't really place any kind of limitations on what he's "allowed" to do or not. I'm technically "allowed" to protest, or resist him as much as I please. And sometimes I do, though generally I don't at all.

However, there is a certain kind of "no" that really does mean "no". It doesn't mean that our relationship would end, it just means that at that point, all traces of kink are off the table, and instead, we sit down and talk about things as husband and wife, as lovers, as partners and most importantly, as equals.
Interestingly enough the only time a "no" has happened so far it came from him. We sat down, talked, worked out the issue, and afterwards our kink dynamic resumed not just as it had before, but a lot stronger than it was before.

In a TPE situation, a "no" from either party means the end of their relationship. That's a place we're both just very unwilling to ever go.



crazyml -> RE: Difference between dominant and sadist (7/31/2012 1:42:29 AM)

FR... This thread has turned right around. It's fascinating.



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