RE: climate change denier comes to his senses

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LookieNoNookie -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/6/2012 4:45:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: How definite is the attribution to humans? The carbon dioxide curve gives a better match than anything else we’ve tried. Its magnitude is consistent with the calculated greenhouse effect — extra warming from trapped heat radiation. These facts don’t prove causality and they shouldn’t end skepticism, but they raise the bar: to be considered seriously, an alternative explanation must match the data at least as well as carbon dioxide does. This is really the bottom line, when the partisan/corporate shit stops. Is there global warming? Yes. Is it caused by industrialization? Maybe. But also consider -- are the stakes high? They are. I think I already did this one (beer conversation....)....but... Ya know what...it doesn't make a damn bit of difference if we contributed or not....what matters is, we're a fuckload smarter than our fore bearers. We can do better. If this is all about sunspots...we lose...but we can do better. If this is because of us....we can do better. If this is because we fucked up, and we're in the midst of a change over.... We can do better. We're smart enough. We can do better. That's pretty much it, and every argument to the contrary fails against.... We can do better.

hardcybermaster -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/6/2012 5:06:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: How definite is the attribution to humans? The carbon dioxide curve gives a better match than anything else we’ve tried. Its magnitude is consistent with the calculated greenhouse effect — extra warming from trapped heat radiation. These facts don’t prove causality and they shouldn’t end skepticism, but they raise the bar: to be considered seriously, an alternative explanation must match the data at least as well as carbon dioxide does. This is really the bottom line, when the partisan/corporate shit stops. Is there global warming? Yes. Is it caused by industrialization? Maybe. But also consider -- are the stakes high? They are. I think I already did this one (beer conversation....)....but... Ya know what...it doesn't make a damn bit of difference if we contributed or not....what matters is, we're a fuckload smarter than our fore bearers. We can do better. If this is all about sunspots...we lose...but we can do better. If this is because of us....we can do better. If this is because we fucked up, and we're in the midst of a change over.... We can do better. We're smart enough. We can do better. That's pretty much it, and every argument to the contrary fails against.... We can do better. and in the middle of lots of scientific and statistical bullshit a glimmer of sanity good post LNN

tweakabelle -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/6/2012 6:57:44 PM)
Recent extreme weather events around the globe are almost certainly due to climate change, a leading NASA climate scientist has asserted, citing a study published in the Proceedings of National Institute of Sciences. "When I testified before the US Senate in the hot summer of 1988, I warned of the kind of future that climate change would bring to us and our planet. I painted a grim picture of the consequences of steadily increasing temperatures, driven by mankind's use of fossil fuels. But I have a confession to make: I was too optimistic. My projections about increasing global temperature have been proved true. But I failed to fully explore how quickly that average rise would drive an increase in extreme weather. In a new analysis of the past six decades of global temperatures, my colleagues and I have revealed a stunning increase in the frequency of extremely hot summers, with deeply troubling ramifications for not only our future but also for our present. This is not a climate model or a prediction but actual observations of weather events and temperatures that have happened. Our analysis shows it is no longer enough to say global warming will increase the likelihood of extreme weather and to repeat the caveat that no individual weather event can be directly linked to climate change. To the contrary, our analysis shows that, for the extreme hot weather of the recent past, there is virtually no explanation other than climate change. The deadly European heatwave of 2003, the fiery Russian heatwave of 2010 and catastrophic droughts in Texas and Oklahoma last year can each be attributed to climate change. And once the data is gathered in a few weeks' time, it's likely that the same will be true for the extremely hot summer the US is suffering. The odds that natural variability created these extremes are minuscule, vanishingly small. To count on those odds would be like quitting your job and playing the lottery every morning to pay the bills." (my emphasis) Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/here-comes-the-sun-chilling-verdict-on-a-climate-going-to-extremes-20120806-23q5o.html#ixzz22t4nLkt3 The author, James Hansen directs the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies. The full study can be found at: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/07/30/1205276109.full.pdf

vincentML -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/7/2012 12:11:17 PM)
Two serious questions. No snark. 1. No similar problems in the Southern Hemisphere? 2. Didn't Muller say these were NOT GW events?

DomKen -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/7/2012 12:19:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Two serious questions. No snark. 1. No similar problems in the Southern Hemisphere? There is much less land in the souther hemisphere and much of what is there is thirld world so it doesn't geta lot of coverage in the news but extreme weather is on the rise in the south as well. For instance the flooding in Oz in 2010-2011. quote: 2. Didn't Muller say these were NOT GW events? Muller said their was no way to make a causul link. That is a long way from saying they weren't related to climate change.

Yachtie -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/7/2012 12:43:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML 2. Didn't Muller say these were NOT GW events? Muller said their was no way to make a causul link. That is a long way from saying they weren't related to climate change. 1. Muller said their was no way to make a causul link. 2. That is a long way from saying they weren't related to climate change. <<< Note the slant. No different from saying that is a long way from saying they were related to climate change. [8\|]

vincentML -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/7/2012 12:45:14 PM)
~FR~ The 1936 North American heat wave was the most severe heat wave in the modern history of North America. It took place in the middle of the Great Depression and Dust Bowl of the 1930s, and caused catastrophic human suffering and an enormous economic toll. The death toll exceeded 5,000, and huge numbers of crops were destroyed by the heat and lack of moisture. Many state and city record high temperatures set during the 1936 heat wave still stand to this day. The heat wave followed one of the coldest winters on record. There has been a long history of heatwaves and droughts the world over. The August 2003 heatwave in Europe was the result of a persistant high pressure region that lingered over Europe. Not sure how that was related to world temperatures. It will be interesting to see how Hansen makes the connection.

VideoAdminTheta -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/7/2012 12:45:53 PM)
Good day to all. I've removed a few post that required removal. Please refrain from making personal or derogatory comments about other members. Thank you

vincentML -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/7/2012 12:47:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML 2. Didn't Muller say these were NOT GW events? Muller said their was no way to make a causul link. That is a long way from saying they weren't related to climate change. 1. Muller said their was no way to make a causul link. 2. That is a long way from saying they weren't related to climate change. <<< Note the slant. No different from saying that is a long way from saying they were related to climate change. [8\|] Yeh, really. Ken's reply perplexes me.

RacerJim -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/7/2012 1:08:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Richard Muller with money from the Koch's has concluded that global warming is happening and it is caused by the human caused rise in CO2. How definite is the attribution to humans? The carbon dioxide curve gives a better match than anything else we’ve tried. Its magnitude is consistent with the calculated greenhouse effect — extra warming from trapped heat radiation. These facts don’t prove causality and they shouldn’t end skepticism, but they raise the bar: to be considered seriously, an alternative explanation must match the data at least as well as carbon dioxide does. [8\|] IOW no other cause supports the data. That rules out solar activity, volcanic activity, changes in the Earth's orbit and all the other red herrings the climate change deniers have trotted out over the years. So until someone finds something that matches the data better, Muller says that is extremely unlikely, then CO2 must be considered the causitive factor. So the time for delay is passed. Now is the time to take action, reduce global carbon output and increase use of renewable energy sources that produce far less CO2. 40 years ago most of the very same "scientists" were blaming mankind for global cooling, even predicting another ice-age before the turn of the century. Well, wonder of wonders, the turn of the century came and went 12 years ago and now, instead of the ice-age they predicted, they're now predicting another melt-down. But oh no, the natural cyclic changes in Earth's axis relative to the Sun has no bearing on cyclic global cooling then global warming then...

Hillwilliam -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/7/2012 1:13:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RacerJim 40 years ago most of the very same "scientists" were blaming mankind for global cooling, even predicting another ice-age before the turn of the century. Well, wonder of wonders, the turn of the century came and went 12 years ago and now, instead of the ice-age they predicted, they're now predicting another melt-down. But oh no, the natural cyclic changes in Earth's axis relative to the Sun has no bearing on cyclic global cooling then global warming then... Actually, it's not the "Very same scientists". Those guys are mostly dead now. As for predicting an ice age before the turn of the century, you wouldn't have a reference to that little bit of asswipe would ya? Regarding changes in the earth's axis, if precession was as extreme as you claim it is, Stonehenge (thousands of years old) wouldn't still be functioning as a calendar. Bottom line, you seem to be dragging out the same old tired, ignorant talking points as all the other scientific illiterates.

Yachtie -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/7/2012 1:15:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam As for predicting an ice age before the turn of the century, you wouldn't have a reference to that little bit of asswipe would ya? IIRC, it was the cover of TIME magazine.

Hillwilliam -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/7/2012 1:21:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam As for predicting an ice age before the turn of the century, you wouldn't have a reference to that little bit of asswipe would ya? IIRC, it was the cover of TIME magazine. I never knew TIME was a scientific journal. Thanks for clearing that up.[8\|]

Yachtie -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/7/2012 1:29:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam As for predicting an ice age before the turn of the century, you wouldn't have a reference to that little bit of asswipe would ya? IIRC, it was the cover of TIME magazine. I never knew TIME was a scientific journal. Thanks for clearing that up.[8\|] That's hysterical [sm=LMAO.gif], seeing as the OP is quoting the OP-ED of The New York Times. Quite the scientific journal there, don't you think?[8\|]

ARIES83 -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/7/2012 1:32:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule If there is more carbondioxide, plant life will proliferate, removing excess carbondioxide from the atmosphere. So there: no need to worry about carbondioxide. You do realize we have deforested an obscene amount of land and at the same time taken a massive amount of carbon from being locked in oil and turned it into co2... we are unbalancing the scales and I can't even imagine how much time it would take to balance back like you suggest. While we are still cutting down trees and burning oil there will never be a balance. Has anyone looked up the Australian Carbon Tax? -ARIES

ARIES83 -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/7/2012 1:39:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam Why can't everyone just stop exhaling. Does this explain why the polar caps on Mars and venus shrinking as well? Polar caps on Venus????????????????? What the fuck are you smoking? Haha...

Yachtie -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/7/2012 1:47:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ARIES83 quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam Why can't everyone just stop exhaling. Does this explain why the polar caps on Mars and venus shrinking as well? Polar caps on Venus????????????????? What the fuck are you smoking? Haha... Ice caps on Venus. bwahahahahaha

DomKen -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/7/2012 2:10:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: ARIES83 quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam Why can't everyone just stop exhaling. Does this explain why the polar caps on Mars and venus shrinking as well? Polar caps on Venus????????????????? What the fuck are you smoking? Haha... Ice caps on Venus. bwahahahahaha How many times have I got to point out that we've learned quite a lot since 1968. For instance the fact that there is no liquid much less solid water on Venus.

DomKen -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/7/2012 2:14:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML ~FR~ The 1936 North American heat wave was the most severe heat wave in the modern history of North America. It took place in the middle of the Great Depression and Dust Bowl of the 1930s, and caused catastrophic human suffering and an enormous economic toll. The death toll exceeded 5,000, and huge numbers of crops were destroyed by the heat and lack of moisture. Many state and city record high temperatures set during the 1936 heat wave still stand to this day. The heat wave followed one of the coldest winters on record. There has been a long history of heatwaves and droughts the world over. The August 2003 heatwave in Europe was the result of a persistant high pressure region that lingered over Europe. Not sure how that was related to world temperatures. It will be interesting to see how Hansen makes the connection. A single event isn't climate. Better than a decade of extreme weather events all over the globe does start adding up to be a change in climate.

DomKen -> RE: climate change denier comes to his senses (8/7/2012 2:17:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML 2. Didn't Muller say these were NOT GW events? Muller said their was no way to make a causul link. That is a long way from saying they weren't related to climate change. 1. Muller said their was no way to make a causul link. 2. That is a long way from saying they weren't related to climate change. <<< Note the slant. No different from saying that is a long way from saying they were related to climate change. Actually the fact is these recent events will be studied in great detail and only then will scientists see if the preponderance of the evidence is that these events were or were not related to AGW. Right now, the data is not yet analyzed enough to let anyone draw any conclusions.

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