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RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/2/2004 3:18:58 PM

Estring

Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
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Gee, I have a novel idea. The people that feel that family planning clinics are important can put their money where their mouths are and donate money to keep the clinics open. I am sure that there would be enough money raised to fund these clinics easily. But you believe that big government is always the answer, so that would never occur to you.

(in reply to Sundew02)

Post #: 21

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/2/2004 3:26:42 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

Agree and have another question regarding putting confidence in the government.

Name one government program or agency that runs effectively and efficiently. Bonus points if ever done at the State i.e. DMV (Division of Motor Vehicle Department) or City local level, i.e. schools.

(in reply to Estring)

Post #: 22

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/2/2004 6:10:12 PM

GentleMistress

Posts: 116
Joined: 8/19/2004
Status: offline

Hmmmm...works for the state so my opinion is biased...exit stage left...

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 23

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/3/2004 7:05:00 AM

newflowers

Posts: 292
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline

I am depressed - four more years. And to top it off, votes not counted before that ridiculous man is attempting to claim victory. I can't bear it. It will be intersting to see what's left in 2008. The end of abortion may well be the least of our worries.

I can be thankful for damage not done because bush is distracted by his war and I can be horrifed by damage done because bush is distracted by his war.

I can't stand it.

Hey Sinergy - welcome back. Hope all is well with you.

-a-

(in reply to Sundew02)

Post #: 24

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/3/2004 7:58:21 AM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

I agree with Newflowers. I'm not a republican nor a democrat. Not even much of an independant. I always look at the situation we are in today. Look for the person who will serve us the best. Then that party gets my vote this time. I don't feel kerry could have done a good job in the eyes of the nation. I don't believe anyone could have. We have instant media now. Back in the days of the "good" presidents we didn't.
Here in California we have been left behind. The economy goes deeper and deeper. As a nation we are at our worst ever. All Bush can say to that is that damn smirk all knowing he probably fixed the election.
I have never seen this happen anywhere in the world before. The hatred that is running through at least 50% of the nations people towards our president. Yesterday as our polls were opening I was reading of the problems at polls in the east. People not being allowed to vote, etc. People trying so hard to stand up for their rights as an American Citizen just to be pushed down. I certainly do not feel we are a free country anymore.
As Estring mentioned. We will end up having backstreet abortions again. People will die. The gay marriage bill will never pass. We will spend billions upon billions for oil. To only be hated even more within the world's community. That's how more terrorists are born. We won't have to worry much about Bin Laden anymore but we will have to worry about the new breed of terrorist Bush is giving birth to.
As you can see I'm rambling here, it just a few thoughts that have been going through my mind. As I was growing up I was proud to be an American. That has been stripped from me. I joined the military because I wanted to serve my great country. If I were growing up now it would be a very different feeling inside of me.

I guess, I need to look into Impeachment. See what exactly a president has to do.

Yes, I know these are my opinions. For those of you who think we are not entitled to them... we are. That is one belief we still have in this country.

(in reply to newflowers)

Post #: 25

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/3/2004 8:15:25 AM

BluesMate

Posts: 20
Joined: 9/12/2004
Status: offline

deletedeletedelete

< Message edited by BluesMate -- 11/7/2004 8:22:44 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 26

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/3/2004 9:47:55 AM

sting516

Posts: 505
Joined: 9/4/2004
From: long island, ny
Status: offline

One thing about this election is that many people really seemed to vote against their personal interest. In the 'money states' of NY, IL, and CA, Kerry was clearly the choice...this is something i find interesting, since in many ways, you'd think that these would normally be leaning towards Republicans...or that Republicans would speak more towards the money state's agendas...i'd also think that states in the midwest like Kansas, Nebraska and the like would lean more towards Democrats, given the farm subsidies which one knows that Democrats would be for.

Of course the biggest irony is that Bush's biggest failure is turning out to be why he's winning this election...the fear of terror...didn't the Twin Towers fall while he was in office? (please don't answer that question, it was rhetorical).

The other large factor in this election was the inclusion of a gay marriage amendment on the Ohio ballot...this surely brought out a much more conservative electorate which may have swayed the state to Bush.

Lastly, while i don't call myself a liberal, i do recognize my leanings are in that direction...and i can remember when the USA was a country of the people, by the people, and for the people...as opposed to of the corporations, by the corportations, and for the corporations...it was a Republican President (Lincoln) who said the former would not perish from this earth...can the same be said of that latter.

Just my two cents...well...maybe more than two cents.

sting

(in reply to Estring)

Post #: 27

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/3/2004 9:48:16 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

Gloria,

quote:

I'm not a republican nor a democrat. Not even much of an independent.

As am I. My religion and political party identification is devoted pragmatist. I wanted to vote for Kerry, but he didn't provide anything to vote for - only the option that he wasn't Bush. However I didn't like the ways he wasn't Bush. I'm curious though who were the "good presidents"?
Being a relatively new Californian my opinions are still developing. But by my observations the biggest problem with Californians is that they can't get past their deep liberalism to do what needs to be done. In LA, emergency rooms are closing because 75% of their patients are illegal aliens. Schools are burdened with overcrowding contributed by illegals - yet Californians can not bring themselves to aggressively curb the problem. As a result services for the Californian poor are drying up. It is difficult to be a businessman in CA when you have to pay the highest workers compensation insurance cost in the nation, highest commercial tax rate, restrictive building and environmental codes. Go across the border to Nevada and those problems don't exist. States like companies need to be competitive to attract business. When the option is to invest $100 Million in a new manufacturing plant, and Nevada provided incentives and a friendlier business climate that's where the plant will be built. I know according to many all businessmen are evil and bad. But without them where would people work?

quote:

The hatred that is running through at least 50%

Well, technically it's 48% this time. But I agree. Why is the question? Is it still resentment for the 2000 election? Is it re-directed self loathing by people who didn't succeed in life as they thought they would and want to blame someone. It is how the media portrays the process? I was amazed last night that with 150,000 margin 3 networks did not project Bush a winner in Ohio. The two that did call Bush the winner there, FOX and NBC, refused to put Bush over the top in New Mexico even though 100% of the precincts were reporting and Bush has a 30,000 margin. Wisconsin and Michigan had a much smaller Kerry plurality with more outstanding votes yet they were identified as Kerry wins. The media can get away with opinions not based on facts. They can make a statement like; "There are problems with some voting booths." and the loosing side can jump on this. Reality is, unlike 2000 where 500 votes made a difference, this time no where is it that close. That's why in about an hour - Kerry will concede, that and a 3.5 Million national plurality.

quote:

We will end up having backstreet abortions again. People will die. The gay marriage bill will never pass.

This subject is even more serious then you may realize. I fully expect that at least 2 if not 3 members of the Supreme Court will be replaced during the next four years. It will only take one to sway the vote to reverse or restrict the Roe v. Wade decision. This is truly scary. These people serve for life - long beyond the 4 year Bush term. I expect not only an attack on abortion and gay rights but many other lifestyle sensitive issues.
The reason this happens is that issues such are abortion, gay rights, and other personal freedom issues are deciding factors for much of the United States. Ohio was won because the Evangelicals did a big voter push against the gay marriage issue on the Ohio ballot. Guess who those people voted for president? 100,000 people may have gone to the Springsteen concert, but 250,000 went to church in Ohio and almost everyone of them voted, most of the Springsteen people were busy doing something else I guess.

quote:

To only be hated even more within the world's community. That's how more terrorists are born.

Resented as arrogant, but not hated. Traveling there I find the people generally friendly. They find it difficult to compete economically with the US because of the entrenched social programs that tie their hands. Forming the European Union may yet turn around some of those policies. Know what they want to get rid of?- Free state provided health care, 8 week mandatory vacations, 50% corporate unemployment tax to businesses. I believe if Kerry won, it would have been perceived similarly to the Spaniards who after they were attacked voted out their president and surrendered in Iraq. I hope in this case neither of us was right.

quote:

We will spend billions upon billions for oil.

Next time stuck on the 405 - count the SUV's. What a joke to have an 8 cylinder 2 ton vehicle in a climate where there is no snow. I can't imagine that all these people drive to the ski resorts every weekend. We have no more oil here. Nuclear power would help. Again in the European model nearly 60% of their power comes from nuclear power plants. Liberals won't allow that to happen here.

quote:

I joined the military because I wanted to serve my great country

THANK YOU!
You still have a country to be proud of. Imagine if in 1940 Germany was as strong and without another strong adversary. Go further back to Imperial England, France, or even ancient Rome and every time a political entity could "take over the world" they did - or tried their best to do so. We are the only county in the history of the world who hasn't done this. The US did not gain any territory after either WWI or WWII. Indeed, we rebuilt Japan and most of western Europe. We try to influence, we send over businesses to exploit opportunities but we do not militarily conquer and occupy. Even in Iraq we are trying out best to form a democracy. How much easier would it be if we just went there, and Saudi Arabia and the other places floating on oil and said - "It's Ours!"? Then the world would have a reason to hate us. Maybe that's ultimately why they are resentful, because if it were them, there history shows that's exactly what they would do.

Can't wait to discuss this in person at your next munch - Hope we are still welcome?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 11/3/2004 12:57:26 PM >

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 28

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/3/2004 11:10:27 AM

Thanatosian

Posts: 765
Joined: 5/10/2004
From: New Castle, PA
Status: offline

quote:

But I was referring to out and out name calling.

as was I - oh and I forgot gun toting and right wing whacko

_____________________________

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An expert is somone who has made all the mistakes there are to be made

(in reply to sweetpleaser)

Post #: 29

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/3/2004 11:11:41 AM

Guest

This is a warning. Flaming is not allowed regardless of who is the topic. If people cannot speak of their dislikes of the President without resorting flaming him, this thread (and the other if it gets out of hand) will be pulled. Let's remember to all be adults please.

Mod4

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 30

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/3/2004 12:49:32 PM

srahfox

Posts: 261
Joined: 10/17/2004
Status: offline

The bottom line is that they both suck. period. Sure they both have pluses and minuses, but saying one is better than the other is blind. I think America is hiding behind the curtain of freedom. How many of you feel the freedom of walking around in collar and cuffs? How many pagans here feel comfortable wearing their religious jewelry out? How many of you know someone who had a under the counter abortion because they couldn'rt get one otherwise? America has freedom for most. Because the majority out there doesn't have to worry about thier jewelry, their sex life, abortions. They will vote in a way that makes them most comfortable.
One thing I know, is that in the last four years I have felt myself more and more threatened. Even though I was born here and love my country.
One other thing I know is that our schools suck. Don't believe me? Have you noticed my spelling? I went to 13 schools, not the goverments fault, but there were huge gaps from one school to anouther. I was in those everyday 'normal' classes. Those kids simple didn't know anything. I dropped out and 4 years later got a GEDwithout taking to refresser courses. I dare you to take any of those kids in your everyday classes who get shuffled along threw school to do that. They can't. I know what I know because I wanted to learn. There are still gaps, but I'm slowly filling them.

(in reply to Sundew02)

Post #: 31

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/3/2004 1:15:11 PM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

I felt the need to clairfy what I meant by "good president" This is not an idea in my mind. I look at the people of the US. Look back everyone, when was the last "good president"
in office? The last one who really made an impact on our lives?
Was it Bush? Clinton? Bush Sr? Reagan? Carter?? Ford? Nixon? Kennedy? The list could go on and on as you all know.
I think in most minds it was Kennedy, correct? Of course speaking here to the diverse amount of people on collarme I may be wrong. I know in passing, most people claim it was Kennedy. Why was Kennedy so great? Because he was killed? Or was it because he cheated on his wife with numerous women? They thought he had a part in the suicide of Marilyn Monroe? Was it his mob ties? What did he do so great for the country?

I think the reason why he was regarded so highy is because nobody really knew what he did. Fast forward him to 2004 is he still a good president?
I believe Clinton did a lot for this country in his time. Yet, what is he remembered for? Monicagate. Why? The deficit was down the economy was coming up. As I've previously stated I am not a Democrat. However, I feel he really did some good for this country. I doubt I will find others to agree with me on this. Why? Because of a conversation I had with my employees yesterday. I was told all clinton had on his mind was monica. It made me think of Paula Jones and the fact once a cheat usually always a cheat. We only know about 2 where I'm quite sure there were many more.
What I consider a decent president and what you consider a decent president will always differ. The bottom line is, are we both a bit better off than we were before they took office?
Merc, you are very much still welcome at my munch. Anytime you wish to come. Hopefully you remember I told you I love a bit of "attitude" with people. You get to see what they are made of that way.

Also, regarding your comment about 8 cylinder suvs on the freeway. What is a 6'6 Dom to do? He could'nt fit into your tiny car. Sometimes things in life are of necessity. Not necessarily out of pleasure.

(in reply to srahfox)

Post #: 32

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/3/2004 1:24:31 PM

srahfox

Posts: 261
Joined: 10/17/2004
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If everyone who had an suv needed one that would be great. But the truth is, they are the 'thing' now. There is an old couple that lives down the street from me. Just the two of them. But they have two SUVs. I seriously doubt they need both. I'm sure they think they are safer. But really they aren't. I knew a girl who had a SUV (I think a yukon, but I'm not sure) a geo hit her and she flipped and her arms was ripped off. That doesn't seem much safer to me. If you have need for an SUV great, have fun. But if you don't why the hell buy one? Specially now with gas the price it is.

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 33

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/3/2004 1:39:50 PM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
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I totally agree with you. I'm 5'8 and finding a compact car that he could fit into was a chore in itself. I like them small. He needs them big. Even full size cars now are small inside.
I'm not looking for a car. Otherwise I'd be well versed on the safety factors. Although, when mercedes comes out with an suv what would prompt me to be interested in it? Knowing full well they have no clue as to what they are doing?

I think one reason why some purchase them is because station wagons are gone. How do you manage to get your children around town with you in a car nowadays?
I own a mustang. One child really cannot fit in my back seat let alone two to three.

The auto manufacturers should start thinking about the public a bit more. Design people friendly vehicles again.

(in reply to srahfox)

Post #: 34

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/3/2004 1:49:51 PM

dixiedumpling

Posts: 456
Joined: 5/10/2004
From: southeast Mississippi
Status: offline

I know a young man who is about 6' 8" and he drives a VW Bug. He shopped for a car and said it had the most room of any he tried. You'd certainly think that paying 2 bucks for a gallon of gas would inspire some people to get a more gas efficient vehicle. The Junior Aux. has an office on the 3rd floor of my church. They have a monthly meeting. The parking lot looks like a SUV convention is in town on that day. What does the average housewife need with that much vehicle? A true waste.

_____________________________

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dixiedumpling

My mind is no place to play alone. Anna Pigeon as written by Nevada Barr

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 35

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/3/2004 2:21:00 PM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
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Consider yourself lucky if you're only paying 2 bucks a gallon. Right now the gas station by my house is 2.38 a gallon.

(in reply to dixiedumpling)

Post #: 36

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/3/2004 3:34:56 PM

newflowers

Posts: 292
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Governmental educational programs. Here's another one that i don't have great faith in. Growing up in a family employed by a school corporation i've had a lot of opportunity to see a great number of fallacies in these. One of which is the before mentioned 'No Child Left Behind Act'. The purpose of this is to force teacher accountability but the result is basically pushing kids along through the school system despite a fundemental lack of learning that is oftentimes present. Should teachers be held accountable for the standard of learning present in their classrooms? Yes. Can children decide not to learn and thereby prey upon the system that is trying to work to their advantage so that they receive the easiest ride possible even though in later years it will only work to the detriment of their own future. Umm - yep! The biggest shock to my system and understanding of this things occured when i transferred out of a accelerated honors english program to a mainstream (aka normal) english program in HS in order to graduate early. Try going from having in-depth discussions upon the theories of various classical authors to sitting in a classroom and listening to 17-18 year olds struggle to bungle their way through a novel that you read as a 13 year old. The children in question clearly should not have been allowed to progress through the HS level as they did not possess an even muddied grasp of vocabulary and literary understanding. But then again - this fits in quite nicely with the impending socialist reform argument as mentioned by Merc.

A good point, however, teacher accoutablity does not change social promotion. No Child Left Behind is an unfunded bandaid that blames teachers for the ills of public education. Yet the problem you indicate here is not changed by NCLB.

How about a bill that requires parents to be responsible and active in their child';s educationsal career and a law that requires students to exhibit responsibility for their learning?

newflowers (on a mini-rant about a sore subject)

(in reply to Destinysskeins)

Post #: 37

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/3/2004 4:47:01 PM

NoCalOwner

Posts: 241
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Communist Rules for Revolution, circa 1919(partial list):
1. Corrupt the young; get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial; destroy their ruggedness...

Dang, I hate these things. Hate them, hate them, hate them. Sorry, but...

http://www.snopes.com/language/document/commrule.htm

From The Encyclopedia of Urban Legends by Jan Harold Brunvand (Norton, 2001), pp. 83-84:

"The Communist Rules for Revolution

This refers to a numbered list of rules, usually ten of them, distributed in printed or written form and claimed to be copies of a master plan for a communist takeover of the West that was 'captured in Dusseldorf, Germany, in 1919 by the Allied Forces.' Sometimes titled 'Rules for Bringing About a Revolution,' the items refer to decline of religion, increased interst in sex, holding of strikes by labor unions, registration of firearms, government extravagance, and other subjects dear to the hearts of ultra-right-wing zealots. A typical rule reads, 'Destroy the people's faith in their natural leaders by holding the latter up to contempt. ridicule, and obloquy.'

Far from being a document from 1919, the 'Communist Rules' originated from a British publication of 1946. They have been repeatedly debunked by leading conservative spokespersons and in many publications... sources are listed below. At least three times members of Congress have been quoted denying the authenticity of the 'Communist Rules' on the pages of the Congressional Record.

Still, even in the 1990s, and despite the breakdown of communism worldwide, radical right publications continue to reprint the 'Communist Rules' and warning about them sometimes appear in letters to daily newspapers. A letter writer from Provo, Utah, for example, in 1990 quoted five of the rules, adding such comments as 'Innocent people who are fighting for gun control, unknowingly are helping the communist goal.'

Sources: Bolloer PF and George J, They Never Said It, New York, Oxford University Press, 1989, 114-116; George J and Wilcox L, Nazis, Communists, Klansmen, and Others on the Fringe, Buffalo NY, Prometheus, 1992, 445-447; Kominsky, M, The Hoaxers, Boston: Braden Press, 600-611."

< Message edited by NoCalOwner -- 11/3/2004 4:58:48 PM >

_____________________________

"Find more pleasure in intelligent dissent rather than passive agreement; for if you value intelligence as you should, the former implies a deeper agreement than the latter."
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(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 38

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/3/2004 5:02:17 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

NoCal

Thank you for that source reference. I'll definitely check out those sources. I often visit the Urban Legends sites but never came across this one.
beth referenced those "Rules for Revolution" from a book she purchased from an antique shop she visited in Arkansas. There are some very, very different and somewhat paranoid perspectives in there. I can't wait to show her your post.
If you're interested all send you the publisher and copy right infomation.

(in reply to NoCalOwner)

Post #: 39

RE: Damn Liberals! - 11/4/2004 6:40:57 AM

srahfox

Posts: 261
Joined: 10/17/2004
Status: offline

Snopes is awsome, if someone sends me something and I want to check it, to snopes I go. I drive a Bettle. Not a new one a 73. Brind new motor. I can drive for week on a single tank. It's great.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 40

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