RE: Lacking a Self

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RemoteUser -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 7:46:56 AM)
Men have similar but different programming. If we hit a woman we're evil. A new Dom might have trouble reconciling his nature with expectations from the masses. The best solution for this is self-actualization. Accept the pieces of what you are. True for women too, at the heart of it, we just get pushed there different ways. Don't get me started on bad feminism!

DesFIP -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 9:19:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Duskypearls What are your feelings about yourself, and might there be a correlation between them and having no energy or motivation to pursue your own happiness? No interests, i.e., nothing pleases, excites or resonates with you? Nothing in which to pour yourself from which you are able to receive sustenance internally? Have you difficulty making/keeping friends? The above are pretty much diagnosis criteria for depression.

Exidor -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 10:17:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus I've been depressed my whole life, but that really wasn't a thing recognized in kids back in the day, especially when they're the smartest one in the class. I wanted so badly to be someone else...so, I became someone else. I read a lot, and when I found a character in a book I admired, I worked on attaining whatever quality I admired in that person. Pretty much the same here, except I wound up with a chip on my shoulder and a general bad attitude. Hating the world will keep you going, but the path is pretty narrow. In my mid 20s I was seriously injured and spent most of a year in recovery and rehab. I spent a lot of long nights thinking about life in general and my place in it. And in all that, I decided I didn't much like who I was, and made myself into someone different. When I went lurching and limping back out into the world I had a framework to live by instead of doing whatever random thing seemed most useful at the time.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 11:05:17 AM)
I decided to just go back to the beginning, since last night's ramblings don't seem to address the question... quote: I had been pondering asking the following questions for several days, but have been very hesitant. Is there anyone who feels single or multiple parts of themselves (mentally, emotionally and/or socially) did not develop as they should have? Does anyone feel as though nearly their entire SELF is absent, and they only have a life in response to other people. How do we define "normal" here? I had a peculiar upbringing, and heaven knows I don't play well with others, but I can't say that is anything unusual. I do feel that parts of me are missing, there are a lot of things I just don't "get", in spite of years of studying those aliens. I have very advanced social skills, which I worked to acquire from a young age. I am MYSELF, though. I might derive my reason for living from other people, but I don't turn into different people depending who I am with. My BEHAVIOR might change or adapt to fit the situation, but I am still me, for good or ill. quote: I have only acquired the courage to ask this after seeing two of LadyHibiscus' posts on the ECT thread, lines from which follow: I create my reason for living based entirely on other people. I wish I could focus on doing things for myself, but it's really not there, and might never be. Being other-centered means that I lived a lot of my life to make other people happy, and while that was not a bad thing, it's my turn now. Of any who feel this may be the case for them, do you find there may be a correlation between it and depression? For those feeling/believing they are in this way, to whatever degree, have you any clue why it is you are so? Have you managed to change or improve upon this? If so, how? I have given up a great deal for the sake of pleasing my family. Choosing to do the responsible thing, the "right thing" has taken its toll. Even now, I adjust my plans, and play the game. I had two therapists tell me "you need to get away from those people". Sorry, running away from responsibility is NOT a solution in my world. The price was increased depression, definitely. Working on boundaries HELPED. There are aspects of my life that are just things that have to be dealt with, there are no solutions. That's true of everyone, I'm sure. I wish I had something more useful to add. From reading what other people have posted, it looks like our symptoms are similar, but our approaches are different. Maybe because I am an aggressive personality, raised by an aggressive personality? I have no idea where I would be if I hadn't had the example of stoicism in front of me every day, and was never ALLOWED to just make a fort under the dining room table and stay there. I hear about people who never leave their rooms, and I marvel that their behavior is tolerated. I assure you that did NOT fly in my mother's house. Fight until you can't fight, then fight some more. I was (am) one of those that thought she could overcome by force of will. I still do, though my will is enhanced by pharmaceuticals. It's been a really bad couple of months for me, and it's been hard to care about that. I am going to use my holiday to regroup and get my act together. For myself. edited for quote wackadoo

LaTigresse -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 11:32:10 AM)
Lovesya Hibby! I am brutally honest when I say that one of MY greatest failings is my lack of ability to empathise with any sort of mental illness. Much to my daughter's agony. I might be fucked up 50 ways from Sunday, I haven't a clue. Then again, I might be disgustingly sane. I never had the opportunity to find out. From such a young age I simply had to deal with whatever was thrown at me. Falling apart was just not an option. Instead, I think I developed ways to distance myself from the emotions and whatever fresh hell I should be feeling. It was as though I went on auto pilot. It's actually a response that I work to avoid now.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 11:56:28 AM)
I think that autopilot is a natural "leader" thing. How many crises have you been through and not even realized? My mom? Was in the hospital with septicemia from a gangrenous bowel for a month. Day to day, live or die, we didn't know. I wrangled every fucking thing, RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF A BREAKDOWN. No clue how. Well, I KNOW how, but I did it, because it had to be done. Sat in my car and screamed a lot. Went to BOTH JOBS, then to the hospital every night. There's a lot to be said for mental training, and a really solid checklist. eta: about the empathy thing... I admit that I am both envious and contemptuous of those who have the luxury of kicking back and falling apart. My bestie is the same. I know, and I understand, but I do indulge in a bit of mental sneering.

gungadin09 -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 12:51:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Duskypearls Is there anyone who feels single or multiple parts of themselves (mentally, emotionally and/or socially) did not develop as they should have? YES. Does anyone feel as though nearly their entire SELF is absent, and they only have a life in response to other people. YES. I feel as colorless as water. And, like water, I mold to whatever is around me. I worry that I have no will of my own. Of any who feel this may be the case for them, do you find there may be a correlation between it and depression? The link between depression and having a weak reality or self is due to the underlying cause of that feeling; namely, my belief that my own self is inferior, and the need to compensate by copying or pleasing others. Nobody REALLY has no self. However, having convinced myself that she's unimportant and untrustworthy, I've simply stopped listening to her, and consequently her voice has gotten weaker and weaker. For those feeling/believing they are in this way, to whatever degree, have you any clue why it is you are so? Probably some combination of nature and nurture. I also think it's the consequence of having once started along that path-- you lose more and more of yourself. The more you sell yourself out to buy approval, the less "self" there is left behind , until you forget who you are. Have you managed to change or improve upon this? If so, how? Partly, by being wary of doing or saying things solely to please others, and by deliberately counteracting this tendency when I begin to feel it pulling at me. Pam

LaTigresse -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 1:00:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus I think that autopilot is a natural "leader" thing. How many crises have you been through and not even realized? My mom? Was in the hospital with septicemia from a gangrenous bowel for a month. Day to day, live or die, we didn't know. I wrangled every fucking thing, RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF A BREAKDOWN. No clue how. Well, I KNOW how, but I did it, because it had to be done. Sat in my car and screamed a lot. Went to BOTH JOBS, then to the hospital every night. There's a lot to be said for mental training, and a really solid checklist. eta: about the empathy thing... I admit that I am both envious and contemptuous of those who have the luxury of kicking back and falling apart. My bestie is the same. I know, and I understand, but I do indulge in a bit of mental sneering. I would like to believe you are correct. On occasion, when I take the time to contemplate it though........I have to wonder "Maybe I am just really REALLY fucked up!" As for the second part, me too. I am not always proud of my contempt.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 1:06:01 PM)
Well, honestly, LaT, who ISN'T fucked up in some fashion? That we even ask the question shows we have more introspection than much of the population. I am really interested in how this discussion is divided along dom/sub lines...

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 1:12:35 PM)
Seriously kick ass question, Dusky. I have to admit I did not experience the world's best childhood or adolescence. My parents were quite frankly ignorant hillbillies from WV who did their best raising five daughters with a limited income. Unfortunately their best was not all that great, they were both physically emotionally abusive. VERY abusive. My parents were so busy working that I literally raised myself. Yes, I did experience some time being "selfless" but that was on account of all the drugs I was doing. By the time I was 18-19 I decided I was not going to allow my parents to decide who I was. And I have improved from there, sometimes with the help of a good therapist, sometimes not. At this point, I could give a flying fuck if I make other people happy, unless I know them, like them, and want to make them happy. Ego I gots.

needlesandpins -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 1:43:42 PM)
uuummmmmm. i've read the other responces, and thought about this some. i'm not sure i can put into words that make sence how i feel about my self. i feel like i've struggled my whole life to have a sence of self that is worth anything. as a child i was very much the loner. i have spent the vast majority of my home life in my own room feeling like an unwanted add on to the family i was living with. my mum controled most of my life with fear of getting it wrong. so i tended to try and not rock the boat by being the model daughter. however, i still managed to always be wrong without doing anything. alot of that made me feel as though i was a ghost, seen, tollerated, but not wanted. nothing i did was good enough, so even my achievements felt worthless due to the 'you could have done better' attitude. i have never fitted in with the crowd, and have very few actual friends due to feeling as though i don't fit. people just don't get me. i generally feel as though i exist to never be enough for people. the self that i am is not what other people want. i am a depressive, and alot of my life i have thought that i wouldn't be much missed if i were to die. in fact when i had a series of operations 6 years ago that i knew had a high chance of killing me i actually wished that i wouldn't come round from them. alot of the way my life is now has made me internally scream at the fact that i'm still here never being enough for the people around me. so, my sence of self.......it isn't much. i'm still here because of my son. i was told i couldn't have children, that he should never have been born, and i couldn't have anymore even if i had wanted them. so i have always thought he was sent to me for a reason, and these days i think it's been to keep me here. also the fact that my mum thought so little of me anyway, and always said that suicide is a cowards way out. i'm not giving her that satisfaction too. but if it just happens anytime i'm cool with that. i made my peace with death along time ago, and often are the times i'd welcome it. needles

LadyConstanze -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 2:17:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Duskypearls I had been pondering asking the following questions for several days, but have been very hesitant. Is there anyone who feels single or multiple parts of themselves (mentally, emotionally and/or socially) did not develop as they should have? Does anyone feel as though nearly their entire SELF is absent, and they only have a life in response to other people. I have only acquired the courage to ask this after seeing two of LadyHibiscus' posts on the ECT thread, lines from which follow: I create my reason for living based entirely on other people. I wish I could focus on doing things for myself, but it's really not there, and might never be. Being other-centered means that I lived a lot of my life to make other people happy, and while that was not a bad thing, it's my turn now. Of any who feel this may be the case for them, do you find there may be a correlation between it and depression? For those feeling/believing they are in this way, to whatever degree, have you any clue why it is you are so? Have you managed to change or improve upon this? If so, how? Hmm, my sense for doing household tasks in a timely fashion is seriously underdeveloped, not being snarky but while I can't stand dirt, I tend to create chaos in my living quarters and seem to have a creative knack for putting things in the most obscure places. I like making people happy and I prefer to have happy people around me, but I also realise that I can only take it so far and I am not responsible for their feelings, if it reaches the point where I am seriously unhappy, I do have to take a step back before I become a mess, because then I am no good to myself and to them. I know I am prone to depression, I need to keep busy, it tends to sneak up on me when I have too much time to over think and over analyse things and I fall into the trap of "what if", so I trained myself to deal with situations without envisioning all possible disasters and handling them to the best of my knowledge, avoiding procastinating. There are times where I won't even touch a single drop of wine, not due to drinking too much but simply because I know even the tiniest amount of alcohol would act as a depressant, I usually up my exercise regime and ride out the situations by getting high on my own endorphins and falling to bed dead tired. A regular routine also helps and cold showers in the morning, as absurd as it sounds.

doctorgrey -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 2:28:27 PM)
There's plenty of 'self' here. You just wouldn't like it much, nor would I expect you to. I certainly don't DrG

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 2:30:01 PM)
I think this is a fascinating question (and observation) on your part. I have always had a very strong sense of self. And I know that strong sense of self has often protected me from bad situations by allowing me to make a decision sooner than someone who lacked a strong sense of self might have been able to do. I cannot answer from the perspective of low or no sense of self, but intellectually it seems to me that some people who are depressed could have low/no sense of self. But I'm curious if you are suggesting that most people with depression are this way? Or if most people who have low/no sense of self are prone to depression? Or women, in particular, who have low/no sense of self are prone to depression? I'm just wondering as I have too many examples of people who I know who don't fit any of these molds (for example, men and women with strong sense of selves who are also suffering from clinical depression). So I am just wondering how strong the correlation could actually be (or maybe I just know an unusual/unrepresentative group of people?).

Duskypearls -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 2:57:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess I think this is a fascinating question (and observation) on your part. I have always had a very strong sense of self. And I know that strong sense of self has often protected me from bad situations by allowing me to make a decision sooner than someone who lacked a strong sense of self might have been able to do. I cannot answer from the perspective of low or no sense of self, but intellectually it seems to me that some people who are depressed could have low/no sense of self. But I'm curious if you are suggesting that most people with depression are this way? Or if most people who have low/no sense of self are prone to depression? Or women, in particular, who have low/no sense of self are prone to depression? I'm just wondering as I have too many examples of people who I know who don't fit any of these molds (for example, men and women with strong sense of selves who are also suffering from clinical depression). So I am just wondering how strong the correlation could actually be (or maybe I just know an unusual/unrepresentative group of people?). I was not suggesting, but asking, if any thought there was a correlation between lack of self and depression. Do you define your strong sense of self as that of being positive or negative nature? In other words, have you a positive or negative sense of self? Do you like yourself, think yourself valuable and worthy, etc.?

Aswad -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 3:46:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Duskypearls Is there anyone who feels single or multiple parts of themselves (mentally, emotionally and/or socially) did not develop as they should have? Does anyone feel as though nearly their entire SELF is absent, and they only have a life in response to other people. What you're describing sounds like a form of depersonalization that is not uncommon in clinical depression. I never experienced depersonalization until the longest bout of depression, but after I did, I'm not sure I have fully recovered from it yet. It's like it has eroded most of me, leaving just the skin and bone, figuratively speaking. Much like atrophied muscles, it will take a lot of time to restore it, with some active effort probably required if it has lasted a while. A purpose can, of course, fill the void as well, which is probably why being a slave ameliorates it, while others seek out movements like the skinheads and the equivalent left wing organizations. None of those options work for me, because of who I am. Which is worth keeping in mind: who you are is still there, the aforementioned skin and bone, which is the core of your being. This is you, naked. The rest was window dressing. Such austerity just doesn't agree with most of us, that's all. In a slave, it can be a beneficial trait, assuming the compatibility with the master/mistress is such that this person can adequately fill the void. In a monk or nun, it is presumably also beneficial. Militaries often attempt to induce an element of it in reconstructing the personality to work as an integral part of a team. But for most of us, it is an unpleasant state of affairs, and not one that is easy to fix. There are therapeutic approaches, and from my own experience, there are also meds that help somewhat with it. Hugs, — Aswad.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 4:03:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Duskypearls I was not suggesting, but asking, if any thought there was a correlation between lack of self and depression. Do you define your strong sense of self as that of being positive or negative nature? In other words, have you a positive or negative sense of self? Do you like yourself, think yourself valuable and worthy, etc.? Yes, my sense of myself is very strong, and I'm inclined to think it's good. I haven't been living up to my own standards lately, and I cannot even generate a sense of shame about it. THAT tells me that I am not in such good shape. But overall, yes, I am a valuable and worthy person. Extra shiny, even. Most folks are, really. How much of that is based on lifelong coping strategies? I don't know. I built my self image as a strong and self reliant person that could stand against anything. And so I am. I am unbreakable. There is nothing that I cannot endure. Even when I don't want to... I attract the best people, too, which is good. I need a pretty big support structure, and I try to make sure it expands whenever possible. Can you have a strong sense of yourself as worthless? Is that the same as the feeling of worthlessness that can come with a depressive attack?

Aswad -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 4:16:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 When you are depressed, you are not really lacking a self, you have just turned anger inside towards yourself. Well, that's one theory... I mostly see it in pop psych self-help texts, though, and it's never made any sense to me. Care to see if you can explain it more convincingly than said texts? quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse [...]I simply had to deal with whatever was thrown at me. Falling apart was just not an option. Instead, I think I developed ways to distance myself from the emotions and whatever fresh hell I should be feeling. It was as though I went on auto pilot. It's actually a response that I work to avoid now. This sounds familiar. Thanks for putting words to it. I think it's more of a protection against shutting down than against breaking down, though. A similar trait has been found that is an adaptation that requires a genetic component. Depending on circumstances, it is also associated with capacity for violence, which seems to occur when operating beyond the breaking point, because one doesn't shut down the way most humans will beyond that point. I have some anecdotal evidence that it's correlated with sadism, but not enough that I would posit that it is. Would be quite interesting to know how many of the people here with the trait also have sadistic inclinations, even if we're a somewhat skewed sample. quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt Ego I gots. And style. [:D] IWY'allW, — Aswad.

gungadin09 -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 4:30:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Duskypearls I was not suggesting, but asking, if any thought there was a correlation between lack of self and depression. Maybe it's more that having a healthy sense of self wards off depression. Pam

Duskypearls -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 4:47:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad A similar trait has been found that is an adaptation that requires a genetic component. Would you care to flesh this out a bit for me?

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