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RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/14/2012 11:52:30 AM   
MrBukani


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Hows the HooverDamn workin out for you?

The annual generation of Hoover Dam varies. The maximum net generation was 10.348 TWh in 1984, and the minimum since 1940 was 2.648 TWh in 1956.[2] The average has been about 4.2 TWh/year.[2]

That's TeraWattHours

1 TeraWatt is 1 Billion Kilowatts so it's been cranking out a shitload of juice over the past 70 Odd years.

And hows the Colorade river, still good spawning season?

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/14/2012 11:56:41 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		lol. Mr. perfectionist....The Netherlands gets its power from Nuclear power 4.0 billion kWh in 2010, Natural gas provided 71 billion kWh (TWh), coal 25 TWh, biofuels & waste 8.6 TWh, and wind 4.0 TWh. 2.8 TWh net of electricity imported, mostly from Germany.

Get back to us when you're a paragon of clean energy.


The green image of the Dutch is at odds with the reality, in what some greens have dubbed “Europe's drainage hole”

The country's poor environmental record is revealed in a report by Natuur & Milieu, an advocacy group. Rather than conduct its own measurements the group collected data from various official agencies. Its report shows the Dutch lagging behind their European peers for quality of air, soil and surface water, stuck in fossil-fuel dependency, and with exceptionally high carbon emissions.

On Yale University's Environmental Performance Index, the Netherlands comes 20th out of the 27 EU countries.* It scores particularly badly on the quality of its soil, where those phosphates and nitrates linger in large quantities. They seep into surface water, the quality of which is also below EU guidelines. Emissions of nitrogen monoxide and dioxide are triple the EU average. Carbon-dioxide emissions rose by 15% between 1990 and 2010. Only vast purchases of emission rights keep the Netherlands below its Kyoto targets.

There is broad agreement on the causes. The Netherlands has the highest numbers of livestock per head in Europe; these beasts produce unrecyclable amounts of manure that pollute soil and water. The country is a transport hub. Lorries and river barges use diesel, a source of particulates. The Dutch have many energy-hungry industries, such as refineries, steelworks and chemical plants. With not much land and lots of people, pollution looks inevitable.

The government does not dispute the report. Even the queen is concerned, referring in her Christmas speech to the limits of the earth's ability to sustain “human greed”. Yet although it supports small environmental projects, the government does not seem worried about the big picture. In hard times it is not about to make life harder for industries that boost state coffers and supply jobs.

http://www.economist.com/node/21546053




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/14/2012 12:01:13 PM >

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/14/2012 11:59:45 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		K I'm a bastard in a shell. but it rocks good cash. We dont even allow personal biofuel.

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/14/2012 12:16:24 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Hows the HooverDamn workin out for you?

The annual generation of Hoover Dam varies. The maximum net generation was 10.348 TWh in 1984, and the minimum since 1940 was 2.648 TWh in 1956.[2] The average has been about 4.2 TWh/year.[2]

That's TeraWattHours

1 TeraWatt is 1 Billion Kilowatts so it's been cranking out a shitload of juice over the past 70 Odd years.

And hows the Colorade river, still good spawning season?


The hydroelectric generation doesnt affect it so much. Lately, they have been performing releases to mimic spring runoff to cleanse the river of silt. the problem is that California is literally sucking the Colorado river dry for irrigation and municipal water. Neither of these has anything to do with the subject of this thread which is power generation.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/14/2012 12:39:36 PM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Here's an idea, though----what about bringing large scale permaculture projects to California? They could green even the dessert, and this would aid in water retention (not directly helping supply, I understand).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sohI6vnWZmk

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RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/14/2012 12:41:15 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Here's an idea, though----what about bringing large scale permaculture projects to California? They could green even the dessert, and this would aid in water retention (not directly helping supply, I understand).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sohI6vnWZmk

Im not certain if that would work or not MM. You need the precipitation or you will be depleting the aquifer. I really do like solar panel that covered viaduct though.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/14/2012 1:05:43 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

You need the precipitation or you will be depleting the aquifer.


I'm no expert here but I don't think so; the water is stored, and evaporation reduced.


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RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/15/2012 7:02:20 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

This solar panel laid on the vast stretches of agricultural channels in Gujarat, India generates 1 MW of electricity per kilometer & prevents evaporation of 1 crore liters of water every year, a very great help to local (and not so local) agriculture.

California could use this idea as well.



Californians? What do you think?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/15/2012 8:30:11 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		This solar wind tower in the deserts of Australia, braving the skies at a mind boggling 1 kilometer in height could soon be the tallest structure on the planet, dwarfing the Burj Kalifa! Based on technology currently in use on the Spanish plains, this structure is designed to heat the air beneath its ultra thin(less than 1mm thick) skirt just above the ground which then forces the expanding air to push its way out and up through the chimney containing 32 wind turbines and producing an impressive 200 megawatts of energy. As a bonus over other types of solar power, thanks to the lingering heat being radiated off the 3,500 hectares of heated ground even after the sun has gone down it provides a much more steady stream of electricity throughout the night. Hyperion Solar hopes to get approval for this $1.7 billion dollar solar updraft tower soon and have it up and running by 2014.

via Community Green Energy

See video: http://vimeo.com/32956600#at=0


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/15/2012 6:13:04 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Californians? What do you think?


Interesting idea, though I can't see the point, except in areas with little or no available land.  I'm trying to imagine what the OSHA mandated rules would be on such a construction job in the US.  India approaches worker safety a little differently, I think.  Those rules would apply to maintenance as well, driving up operations costs.

I had to Google for what exactly a "crore," is.  The evaporation savings is going to convert out to less than an acre foot, or in terms anybody can grasp without research, less water than is typically used by one single family home, in the suburban US, in one year.

A couple other concerns come to mind.  

With such a high moisture environment, you're going to get a lot of condensation onto those panels, as the temperature rises and falls from day into night.  That moisture will collect dust etc., and create a crusty buildup on the panels, reducing the efficiency, and adding even further maintenance costs, to keep them clean.

Then there is safety.  One thing that happens fairly often with irrigation channels, and even in the mighty California Aqueduct itself, is that people drive cars and pick-up trucks into them.  How many more of those people will die, as a result of the structure they have crashed through?  How much greater will the hazards be to the rescue crews who get those people out?

But it certainly does make a nifty picture, at first glance.  No wonder liberals are enthralled.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/15/2012 7:51:26 PM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Plus, it would be harder for Lassie to pull kids out of the water before they drown.


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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/15/2012 7:52:21 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Now for those who look at these sources of electrical power more from the, "when I build my kinky cabin in the woods," off-grid sort of applications, one really intriguing development is in nanophotovoltaics, which can convert infrared light to electricity.  This raises the possibility of being able to convert waste heat, say from the chimney of a wood stove, into power that can be used in the rest of the house. 

There are still some technical hurdles of the sort 4 electricians could argue about for a week, but somebody might come up with something out in the shop, that would fix that.

As for that Australian super wind tower, thingie, they seem to be looking to create, and then contain, a tornado. 

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/15/2012 7:55:03 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		You've a few things to learn about tornadoes too, I see.

Plus, what if it sucks up all the sun and wind, and the planet goes dark and still ? ? ?


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/15/2012 8:06:07 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You've a few things to learn about tornadoes too, I see.

Plus, what if it sucks up all the sun and wind, and the planet goes dark and still ? ? ?





Science still has a lot to learn about tornados, Muse...  And no.  The effect they are working with is exactly the same as what creates dust devils, here in my part of the world.  A tornado is a rotating column of air.  Now the biggest, nastiest, naturally generated dust devil is still going to pack less whallop than a rotating column of air spawned in a thunderstorm, but artificially heat 3500 hectares (8600 acres), and yeah, you could easily get speeds high enough on the F scale to call what is going on in there a tornado.

It's sad, Muse.  Elsewhere, I see you telling people that you'll elevate your tone when they do, but here we are, trying to have a civil discussion that isn't a partisan mess, and you totally punk yourself out with that, "suck up the sun," bullshit.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 8/15/2012 8:09:30 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/15/2012 8:09:24 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Yup. Did you read the bullshit issues you manufactured? Of course I'm not taking it seriously.

Bingo. Tornadoes rotate. At very high wind speeds.

It's a straight line wind, Sparky, turning turbines--multiple turbines.

What is it you hate about efficiency so much?

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/15/2012 8:21:14 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yup. Did you read the bullshit issues you manufactured? Of course I'm not taking it seriously.

Bingo. Tornadoes rotate. At very high wind speeds.

It's a straight line wind, Sparky, turning turbines--multiple turbines.

What is it you hate about efficiency so much?



I really think you need to get laid, Muse.  Chill the fuck out.  Are you arguing from the sales literature, like that CNN anchor getting her stats from the Talking Point Memo?

No.  It wouldn't be a straight line wind.  The air under that giant canopy is going to rotate, exactly the way the heated disc of air does above a patch of bare ground when a dust devil is born.  That rotation is going to be strengthened and amplified when it is pressurized into the containment tower.  It's a coriolis thing.  Go watch your toilet flush, and report back.

What I said had nothing to do with efficiency, much less a hatred of efficiency.  I invite you to retract your fallacy.

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RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/15/2012 8:23:39 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Chill out? I'm here laughing, Tornado Boy.

OH NO!!!!! IT's Gonna Blow!!!!! And what if somebody drives into it?????


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/15/2012 8:28:53 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Chill out? I'm here laughing, Tornado Boy.

OH NO!!!!! IT's Gonna Blow!!!!! And what if somebody drives into it?????





You started the thread, Muse.  If you want to make it about how proud you are of ignorance, I'll leave it to it you then. 

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 8/15/2012 8:29:24 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/15/2012 8:32:16 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		If only you could be there to save those sorry Aussies before that thing blows...


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: 100% wind, water, solar power possible - 8/15/2012 8:34:35 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Californians? What do you think?


Interesting idea, though I can't see the point, except in areas with little or no available land.  I'm trying to imagine what the OSHA mandated rules would be on such a construction job in the US.  India approaches worker safety a little differently, I think.  Those rules would apply to maintenance as well, driving up operations costs.

I had to Google for what exactly a "crore," is.  The evaporation savings is going to convert out to less than an acre foot, or in terms anybody can grasp without research, less water than is typically used by one single family home, in the suburban US, in one year.

A couple other concerns come to mind.  

With such a high moisture environment, you're going to get a lot of condensation onto those panels, as the temperature rises and falls from day into night.  That moisture will collect dust etc., and create a crusty buildup on the panels, reducing the efficiency, and adding even further maintenance costs, to keep them clean.

Then there is safety.  One thing that happens fairly often with irrigation channels, and even in the mighty California Aqueduct itself, is that people drive cars and pick-up trucks into them.  How many more of those people will die, as a result of the structure they have crashed through?  How much greater will the hazards be to the rescue crews who get those people out?

But it certainly does make a nifty picture, at first glance.  No wonder liberals are enthralled.

Construction job like that in the US, no problem It's no worse than building a bridge or dam. I've worked on worse. (500 KV powerlines 120' over a swamp)
Condensation? The humidity of the outside environment is so low that there will be no condensation on the light gathering (top) surface.
Most irrigation channels don't have public roads beside them so your last argument is null.

You're welcome.

ETA. It's pure capitalist MONEY. more irrigation water delivered and electricity to sell. win win

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 8/15/2012 8:35:46 PM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 100
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