RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (Full Version)

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BambiBoi -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/13/2012 12:10:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: BambiBoi
I wanted to clarify that I put a lot of the responsibility on the bottom in the front half

This sounds like the way a politician uses the word "responsibility". Out of curiosity, is there any net effect of this burden of responsibility that the sub has up front or is it just... you know.. a nice word to use?



Of course. When anyone fails to meet their responsibility, they must accept the consequences of what happens. If a bottom fails to point out they have a hard limit against anal, its not the top's fault when a proper toy safely goes up the butt. I really dislike "blame the victim" mentality, and am careful to avoid it whenever I can, but setting the limits of play falls on the submissive first. The top sets their own limits by their actions. If a bottom is fine with cutting, but a top has it as a limit, it just won't happen in play.

Before I said that the top should have an opportunity to shift the blame to an alternate source. When the following statements are made honesty, the blame should go back to the bottom (who I am making a man for brevity).

He didn't tell me he didn't want electrical play.
He didn't tell me he was prone to seizures.
He didn't tell me anal was off the table.
He didn't tell me not to take pictures.
This one is a little more touchy and gets into the "well you should have known anyway because that was some intense stuff".... but "he didn't use his safeword."




LadyPact -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/13/2012 12:56:56 PM)

I'm glad something that I put up there led to thoughts for another thread.

As a top, I do tend to take the lion's share of the responsibility as long as certain factors are not a part of the equation........

If you don't know how to properly negotiate a scene, that is not My fault.

If you lied to Me during negotiations, that is not My fault.

If you withheld information that I should have been aware of before play began, that is not My fault.

If you should have used your safeword, but CHOSE not to, that is not My fault.


Just about anything else, I'm willing to be the one holding the bag. That goes for skill, equipment, any Oooppps moments that happen, and being competent enough to control the scene to the best of My ability. I'm not a half bad player, but I'm not going to sit here and say that every strike I've ever thrown has landed perfectly, or nobody has ever gotten a small blister from fire play, or a toy has never broken in My hand. These things aren't always due to incompetence.

One quick word on the doctor/licensing analogy. A good number of incidents that are related to things going wrong are from casual play and quite often, that's in some kind of public play space. That means that there may be information available by asking staff or people that top has played with in the past if the person is relatively safe, what kind of experience they have, or whether or not there have been problems with an individual. Had the bottom from the other thread checked references, she probably would have found out that top had brain damage and would have known that person probably wasn't safe to play with. Asking for references is not a bad thing.




LadyConstanze -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/13/2012 1:18:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I'm glad something that I put up there led to thoughts for another thread.

As a top, I do tend to take the lion's share of the responsibility as long as certain factors are not a part of the equation........

If you don't know how to properly negotiate a scene, that is not My fault.

If you lied to Me during negotiations, that is not My fault.

If you withheld information that I should have been aware of before play began, that is not My fault.

If you should have used your safeword, but CHOSE not to, that is not My fault.


Just about anything else, I'm willing to be the one holding the bag. That goes for skill, equipment, any Oooppps moments that happen, and being competent enough to



I'd absolutely agree with that but again, that is the ideal situation, the sad truth is that while nothing was your fault, something can go wrong and if the sub then points a finger at you, you're the one that gets charged. One of the reasons that if I do play casually, I tend to play quite mild, for edge play I need to feel comfortable with somebody and know him or her well enough to be able to trust. That trust thing goes both ways...




JeffBC -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/13/2012 2:03:23 PM)

quote:

Original: BambiBoi said:
If a bottom fails to point out they have a hard limit against anal, its not the top's fault when a proper toy safely goes up the butt.

Agreed.

Now... if the bottom fails to research her top carefully? How about that? Are there any consequences for that -- other than, of course, the physical and emotional ones?

You know what? I'm just going to embrace it. Yup. I AM blaming the freakin victim. I'm cool with that. I'm also blaming the idiot top. I'm cool with that too. I'd rather do that than enable them to be victimized more. It may sound harsh to you. To me it is the only real path of goodness.

quote:

Original: LadyPact said:
I'm glad something that I put up there led to thoughts for another thread.

More than that actually. I'm currently tracking 6 or 7 threads ongoing that are all related. More... you've really opened my eyes (and not in a good way) to "the lifestyle". I guess I knew all this already. It's not like the horror stories weren't presented to me right from day 0. I just hadn't really put it all together into a single cohesive picture before. I may reconsider... but at least right now "the scene" is looking like a machine designed and built to train victims and I think it does a pretty good job at it. I'm actually pondering sitting down and coming up with "Jeff's theoretical system to train victims" then seeing how closely it compares to "the scene".




littlewonder -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/13/2012 3:44:35 PM)

quote:

oh well, she knew something could go wrong so too bad.


That's pretty much exactly what i think. Yup, the bottom knew something could go wrong so if you just met that top and you knew nothing...not one iota except for a few chat sessions online or reading their profile, it's on you dude.


quote:

ResidentSadist: When you pick a doctor that inspires trust? Do you shop for one that is competent, has references and credentials? The same should be true with a partner.

When your doctor prescribes something, do you have to know everything, all the medical information to follow his edict . . . or do you follow his lead unless it offends your sensibilities? The same should be true with a partner.

If a doctor says you have an infection and prescribes antibiotics, you don’t need to go get a second opinion or study medicine. However, if he gives you some bizarre remedy that just doesn’t make sense, your self preservation should take control and seek more information. The same is true when a relationship or play partner wants to do something that offends your sensibility. Herein lay the lines of self responsibility as I see them.



If I go to a doctor and he seems sketchy to me but yet I still allow him to operate on me and something goes wrong, yeah, I'm gonna fault myself for not having a doctor I felt I could trust. Doctors are not miracle workers or Saints. They're human.

If a doctor gives me a medication, I take it without knowing anything about it or its side effects and something happens to me, it was my responsibility to read up and do my homework so I could make sure it didn't interact with other meds or items in my life that maybe I could have forgotten to tell the doc or he didn't know enough about the med either that he prescribed to me. It's again on me do to do the research. I'm not going to hold that doctor to more than human standards. At the end of the day doctors aka Doms are just as human and make mistakes or don't do their homework just like anyone else.




NuevaVida -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/13/2012 6:47:08 PM)

~ Fast Reply ~

All these threads about blame and victimhood and who's at fault, etc., has inspired me to tell a little story (turns out it's kind of a long little story). Read if interested, move along, if not.

Once upon a time there was a young woman whose life circumstances didn't allow her to know and understand who she was and why, or even how to figure that out. She was in a long term marriage that was unhealthy, and she felt she was the blame for all that was wrong in it. This was particularly pressed upon her by the husband. It took a very long time for her to gather the courage to leave this marriage, and subsequently a crazy-long time to figure herself out when the marriage and abuses within it were behind her.

Along that path, her vision was still too clouded to see clearly. She did, however, discover this world of BDSM, M/s, etc., and was drawn to the first man who scooped her up. She wasn't "out" in the lifestyle; didn't know anyone in it, in person, even. But this man was older, had an impressive career, had a powerful energy that sucked her in, and made her feel like she belonged somewhere.

He taught her to communicate better, and even insisted on pushing her hard to become strong - stronger than she knew she was capable of. Through the course of their years together, she was drawn so closely to him, she found herself what many here call internally enslaved to him. To the degree where she no longer questioned him or his choices or what he chose to do with her.

And what he chose to do with her became more and more intense over time, but she knew not to question it - and all the threads she read (by relative strangers on the internet) which celebrated internal enslavement seemed to encourage her (in her own mind, anyway) and left her feeling that she was doing the right thing.

So, when his growing intensity with her began actually causing her physical harm (she's actually quite lucky and sees this, in retrospect), such that she did need doctors, medication, and at times, neglected to go to the doctors when she should have, things began resonating within her that this can't be right, but she was too far enslaved to him to act on it. She was of the mindset that she was truly his property, and that all he did should be abided by. If he says it's fine, then it's fine. He became her entire purpose, and she honestly felt if he damaged her, then he'd have to deal with damaged property - she certainly wasn't going to stop him from doing what he was doing, because in her mind and heart, that would have been worse than any of the physical damage he did to her.

It wasn't until he had damaged her to the degree she was no longer enjoyable to him, that he let her go - poof, bye bye. She was devastated, to put it mildly, but decided to look at her life differently, and worked very hard to figure out who she was, what she wanted, and how to make better choices for herself going forward.

She changed her online name to NuevaVida, since she had chosen to create a new life for herself.

This process, from leaving to marriage until NuevaVida learned to love herself, forgive herself, and become accountable for herself (because she *does* hold herself accountable for past choices which resulted in physical and emotional damage), took many years. It was a long and very hard process, which has left her understanding that those "helpless waif" slaves, those "victims" in life, those girls that annoy the hell out of so many people, could very well be in the place she once was. They can't hold themselves accountable because they don't see it. There is no sense in becoming angry at them for where they are in their path, because she believes for whatever reason, they're exactly where they need to be, and that when they reach their own rock bottoms, as she had, they'll be in a position to make positive changes, like she did.

So my little epilogue here is that rather than write a bunch of posts about how stupid those people are, and how they deserve the bad things that happen to them, and how annoying they are, I hope for the best for them, and move my energy and focus onto people who look at the positive things in life, who put goodness out in the world, and who I can learn from.

Everyone fucks up. Everyone has had bad patterns in their lives. Nobody has reached the point of perfection. I happen to think that compassionately showing people healthier directions has a lot more benefit than kicking them while they are already down, or complaining to each other about them.

Yes, everyone has some level of responsibility for the positions they find themselves in. Not everyone sees it. Call me a dreamer (I don't mind) but I happen to think everyone is capable of seeing their own light and learning from it. My own experience has me believing that leading someone to discover their light is a much more effective way of changing things.

This post might feel relevant to some people, and stupid to others. I'm not even sure why I wrote it, other than it came out of me. For those who read it, thanks for taking the time.

My quick answer to the OP, after all that, is that all parties have a responsibility to themselves and each other, to act with good intent, to learn as much as they can about what they're doing, and to have their own and each other's well being in mind when playing.

Not sure I should post this, but what the heck. I'll stop typing now, and hit the "OK" button. [;)]




JeffBC -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/13/2012 6:54:35 PM)

Just to clarify... my interest on this and other threads is not to point fingers at anyone. What I AM trying to understand is the system as a whole and what structures within it enable and promote what happened to you and candle-bottom. You mentioned one of them in your post... the glorification of IE. It's why I dislike talking too much about IE here. In fact, the glorification of extreme-ness is the bigger picture and that came up twice in your post.

What I'd like to do is answer LadyPact's question in a serious fashion... "Why does this happen?" But to do that is going to take more than simply saying, "Idiot top. Idiot bottom." Sure, that's a given. But that doesn't answer anything.




NuevaVida -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/13/2012 6:59:49 PM)

And yet, Jeff, I do see many of your posts express some very negative feelings toward much of who I wrote about up there (rather, who that symbolizes, not me personally). Totally your prerogative, and doesn't affect me personally, but I'm seeing more disheartened opinions expressed (not just by you) than questions about how or why this happens, or to gain understanding.

It's the overall impression I'm getting. Could be wrong, but I don't currently have the time to go back and reread everything, as I have to go pick my mother up.

Honestly? I'm not convinced people really want to know the truth of "Why." I see LP's question as a sincere one. But I don't think people like the answers.




JeffBC -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/13/2012 7:13:36 PM)

You might be misinterpreting. Yes, I am tracing down paths of fault. Inevitably, I'm looking at who made what mistakes. Some of the stuff in the candle thread is just so flummoxing that yes, it gets me rattled.

But in the bigger picture I don't care about you or the candle-bottom. Where my head is at is on topics like "protection" and "marketing honor" and other things. I'm trying to understand "the system" as a system from the entry point forward not the individuals within the system. The question is simple, "Why did that happen?" The answer, however, is not so simple. Where my ire is focused is not you or candle-bottom. I'm looking at "the lifestyle". You and candle-bottom just happen to be obvious flashpoints and examples as I try to work it out. If it helps you any, it's quite possible that I'm going to end up being way more disappointed in LadyPact and those like her than in you when I'm done with this. She is a part of "the system" I'm looking at whereas you are not. That's where my head is at. The whole "embracing of blaming the victim" is just another part of "the system". I don't care about the blame on the victim or lack thereof. I do care about how various decisions shape future outcomes though.

Your story though is a bit different than the one I'm looking at because, as I understand it, the master in question started out rational and jumped the shark at some point. As I understand it, you had more than 1 hour of meeting before you came to the IE place -- "years" is what you said. Look... that's Carol's position and I'm the first to say that she's totally fucked if I lose my mind. I'm still not big on wounded people and no, I would not have wanted to play with you or, frankly, even associate with you back then from your descriptions. Insofar as "blame"... I'll leave that for other people who are into it.

Also, do try to remember that my side of this is somewhat different than yours. I'm male. You're female. That makes a vastly different legal and social landscape. We have very different risks in play.




BambiBoi -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/13/2012 7:19:33 PM)

Thank you for sharing that, Nueva. I think your story makes it crystal clear why a submissive or slave should still have the presence of self to ensure their own safety as best they can. If I may be so bold, I don't think Jeff's responses are in conflict with what you seem to believe.

Correct me if I'm wrong: You, Nueva, believe that the bottom must be strong. Strong enough to know what she wants, strong enough to know what she doesn't want, and strong enough to leave if necessary. I think Jeff would agree. That is why he, in his words, blame the frickin victim. He does this because the now-victimized bottom was supposed to be strong, and supposed to avoid these silly risks.

We are now talking about a lot of different kinds of harm, and the way to assess them all may not be equal. I was talking about faulty machinery while Jeff was talking about very isolated moments of incompetence while you gave a touching story of self discovery and the perils of not having it.





JeffBC -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/13/2012 7:31:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BambiBoi
I think Jeff would agree. That is why he, in his words, blame the frickin victim. He does this because the now-victimized bottom was supposed to be strong, and supposed to avoid these silly risks.

*nods* And in this case, my "blame" is a gift of love. At this juncture anyway, it's the only way I can think of to help. It isn't "blame" as in "you're a bad girl". Even my statement, "I wouldn't have wanted to be around the earlier Nueva" was not a statement about what an awful woman she was. That was designed to protect ME from her. I see such women as a ticking legal time bomb and I try hard not to be too nearby in case the timer runs out.

I gotta admit though I'm pretty sure that even if I magically DID come up with an analysis and an answer for LadyPact it is useless. NOBODY would want to implement it. It'd really interfere with the thrill seeking. And from the D-side, if you actually train better prey then you need to be a better hunter to go get it. Yeah... like anyone wants to do that.




NuevaVida -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/13/2012 11:07:57 PM)

A few thoughts based on the replies:

Jeff: The short and obvious of it, as for the "Why" is that people misjudge, err, don't think, get distracted or just otherwise fuck up. Or maybe they're just fucked up to begin with, for whatever reason. You've got millions of people on this earth, who do risky things every day. Sooner or later someone's going to fuck up - that's the nature of the beast. Accidents are going to happen. Negligence is going to happen. People will get hurt. People will die. Shit happens. That's the "Why" - because shit happens. And sure, we can ask why one particular shit happened, so we can perhaps learn how to prevent it in the future, but that's on an incidental basis. As for why people are fucked up? Well by discounting anyone's story (not just mine) by saying "Yeah but I'm talking about something different" (paraphrased) you risk missing out on understanding human nature, because all stories string together the answers, in the long run.

Of course you wouldn't want to hang out with me back then. The me today wouldn't hang out with the me of yesterday. The me today focuses my time and energy on healthy, happy, positive people. Funny though, that you'd think I was a ticking legal time bomb - you do have that part wrong. I'd have much sooner withered away with my tail between my legs and stay silent. In fact, I did just that when the VP of a company I was working for raped me. I didn't say a word - at work, to my (then) husband, to anyone but my best friend.

As for the relationship I spoke of...I'll disagree with you on that mark. He wasn't a rational person to start with, who changed. In fact, that's rarely the case. Irrational and dysfunctional people tend to not choose rational people to hang with, because they can't relate. People don't change on a dime like that. It's more likely than not "He changed" is actually, "I turned a blind eye to all the signs that he was a crazy-ass, until I couldn't take it anymore and allowed myself to see the truth." Truth is, Jeff, I was fucked up, and made a point blank decision that I no longer gave a shit about myself or what happened to me, so it was really easy for him to do what he wanted.

But I don't regret any of it, nor do I have any hard feelings about it. I've gained a lot of insight because of all that, and I use that insight to move forward. A few years ago I couldn't have said that. I was still in victim mentality. You see, when someone's been violated, they are a victim. And until they can grieve and heal, they will continue to feel like a victim. And that's OK. We're all on different timelines. Eventually we (hopefully) figure it out and can move forward. Everyone recovers in their own unique way.

BambiBoi: I think a bottom needs to be whomever he or she is at whatever given time - strong, weak, or anywhere in between. Strong and aware can prevent a lot of pain, yes, but sometimes it's those most awful pains that catapult us into the most amazing places. I neither blame the victim nor do I feel sorry for the victim. It simply is. The question is, what are you going to do about it (generic you)?

You nailed it though - so many different kinds of harm, and different ways of getting there. This is why a person could go crazy asking why, or could waste precious time being angry about weak or fucked up people. You want change? Set the example. Take the positive approach of showing people how to do it "right". Celebrate the cool stuff, so people will want to emulate that. The more you focus on being healthy, safe, and positive, the more healthy, safe and positive people you'll attract into your life, and you won't have to worry so much about the fuck ups, because they won't be part of your circles.




JeffBC -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/13/2012 11:18:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
Jeff: The short and obvious of it, as for the "Why" is that people misjudge, err, don't think, get distracted or just otherwise fuck up. Or maybe they're just fucked up to begin with, for whatever reason. You've got millions of people on this earth, who do risky things every day. Sooner or later someone's going to fuck up - that's the nature of the beast. Accidents are going to happen. Negligence is going to happen. People will get hurt. People will die. Shit happens. That's the "Why" - because shit happens. And sure, we can ask why one particular shit happened, so we can perhaps learn how to prevent it in the future, but that's on an incidental basis. As for why people are fucked up? Well by discounting anyone's story (not just mine) by saying "Yeah but I'm talking about something different" (paraphrased) you risk missing out on understanding human nature, because all stories string together the answers, in the long run.

That's not what I'm looking at Nueva. I'm looking at institutionalized systems that actively create the problem. I get it that shit happens and if you roll the dice enough times it'll happen to you. I'm more interested in the non-accidental stuff like protectors and trainers and the verbiage of BDSM. I'm not entirely convinced yet... I'm still just working it all through and who knows how I'll end up seeing it. But at least right now it's looking to me like an institutional sickness rather than an individual one... a sickness which is probably desired by it's participants.

quote:

As for the relationship I spoke of...I'll disagree with you on that mark. He wasn't a rational person to start with, who changed. In fact, that's rarely the case. Irrational and dysfunctional people tend to not choose rational people to hang with, because they can't relate. People don't change on a dime like that. It's more likely than not "He changed" is actually, "I turned a blind eye to all the signs that he was a crazy-ass, until I couldn't take it anymore and allowed myself to see the truth." Truth is, Jeff, I was fucked up, and made a point blank decision that I no longer gave a shit about myself or what happened to me, so it was really easy for him to do what he wanted.

Heh... you're not disagreeing with me. I wasn't there. You're "setting me straight" *laughs* I had misread your earlier post. I have to admit i was thinking "Man, that's a really rough deal to enter into an IE relationship wisely THEN have the crazies set in."





NuevaVida -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/13/2012 11:35:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

That's not what I'm looking at Nueva. I'm looking at institutionalized systems that actively create the problem. I get it that shit happens and if you roll the dice enough times it'll happen to you. I'm more interested in the non-accidental stuff like protectors and trainers and the verbiage of BDSM. I'm not entirely convinced yet... I'm still just working it all through and who knows how I'll end up seeing it. But at least right now it's looking to me like an institutional sickness rather than an individual one... a sickness which is probably desired by it's participants.


Oh ok, then I misunderstood. Yeah institutional sickness. Pick an institution and there will be sickness in it. [8D]

I just couldn't help, with all the posts recently - of "Blame the victim!" "Blame the top!" "Blame both!" and "So who's responsible?" - thinking there were a lot of pissed off people looking for something to blame. It was just the overall meme I was feeling here lately.

quote:


Heh... you're not disagreeing with me. I wasn't there. You're "setting me straight" *laughs* I had misread your earlier post. I have to admit i was thinking "Man, that's a really rough deal to enter into an IE relationship wisely THEN have the crazies set in."



LOL right. I didn't do anything wisely then lol. But, from my own experience, the crazies start out kinda mild, and gradually/slowly evolve into "Holy shit this is fucking insane" over time, such that you don't really see it happening until you look at where you are versus where you started out. Both crazy-person and person-with-crazy-person start feeling a comfort level, so it doesn't feel quite so crazy anymore and starts branching out into crazier.

I'm thinking we're totally derailing the OP's point, though...hmm...




crazyml -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/14/2012 12:11:28 AM)

FR...

I'm completely at a loss with these threads... All of the fuckers.

Some people have common sense, some people don't.

If you have it, then you're likely to be safer (note I didn't say safe). If you don't then you're likely to have a bad experience.

Sometimes you'll find yourself in a situation with someone who lacks common sense, or perhaps someone who is a little fucked up.

It's absurd to attempt to make general presumptions of blame/responsibility.

It has to depend on the circumstances.




LadyPact -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/14/2012 12:29:16 AM)

Going to try to collect all of these thoughts and get them to translate into the written word.

Let's talk about candle bottom here for a second. No, that wasn't My story to share, but I did it as something of an information gig. Sorry, but every once in a while, it's a good thing to remind people of what can happen. If it makes them think twice before not knowing who they are playing with or just how bad it can be when there is negligence involved. Had that story been an accident, I'd have had a whole different reaction to it.

Instead of the title to that thread being "why does this happen," it really should have been "why does this happen in this day and age?" I can't pin the reason on stupidity. I attribute at least some of it to ignorance and frankly, there's no flipping excuse for that. Add some incompetence to the mix, which absolutely drives Me nuts as a top. There's absolutely no reason for this. I don't even think people know just how easy it is to learn a topping skill. Today, there is more education available about BDSM than ever before. With as many kink groups, clubs, and multiple day events as there are in Florida?

Part of the problem is the internet. Yes, it's the same internet that, if you use it as a tool to find ways to become educated, is a fantastic thing. The problem is the internet mentality. "Oh, I read about BDSM, joined a message board, so now I'm insta-Dom, top, leather" is still prevalent out there. God forbid somebody take the time to read a book, attend demos, get instruction from someone more skilled than they are. Nope. People want it all and they want it right now. This also creates the culture of where people lie about how much experience they have or what they actually KNOW what to do in play.

I'm a firm believer in RACK. That goes for both tops and bottoms. That didn't happen in the given example. I could find My own posts here on CM that talk about wax and what shouldn't be used. LACK OF RESEARCH BECAUSE IT SOUNDED LIKE FUN IN THE MOMENT.

I will have a word here though, Jeff, because it's not people like Me who are a part of this institution. See, I'm the old fashioned chick who believes in and promotes education constantly. It's not that nobody wants to implement it. Instead, it's more that people don't feel they need to invest in it. After all, they can just sign onto the net and find a blog somewhere and emulate that. Go to a demo? Oh goodness, no. It's too far away.

Those of us who didn't come up through the net have an entirely different perspective. We had to learn from others who were more skilled than us. We had to ask. We went the extra mile, worked on our education, and admit it when we had ignorance on a subject. People don't do that anymore because it's entirely too easy to rely on the computer.

In ways, being a computer twit was the best thing that ever happened to Me. Doing things the old fashioned way gives Me a serious advantage. It allowed Me to acquire a heck of a lot of knowledge. I've got not shame in saying that I've learned from some of the best. A few of them even used to have profiles here. People that I owe more than I can say.

Don't blame those of us who appreciate the way things used to be. Blame the instant gratification, fast food society that has infested BDSM just like it has everything else. Maybe, just maybe, those old ways weren't quite so bad.




JeffBC -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/14/2012 12:35:07 AM)

How about if I "blame" whoever I find to be at fault? I'm not currently buying the whole, "it's all the fault of the kids" line of thinking. Or, at least, I'm not buying that as a primary contributor. You tell me at what point did this "protector" stuff show up? I'm going to guess somewhere about day 1 of BDSM.




Whenready -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/14/2012 12:45:03 AM)

Not pointing any fingers here, but disagreeing with LadyPact on one point.

While the internet helps foster "instaDoms", I'm sure they were out there before the net too. Not so many of them, and we didn't hear about them, but the idiots wee still out there, doing te same things, just not so visibly, and, quite likely, hushed up locally.

Adds: I absolutely agree with her about education, education, education....




onceshattered -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/14/2012 3:14:41 AM)

fr

I'm coming at this from a very inexperienced standpoint so please bear with me.

To start off, let me say that I'm one of those people that, so far, has used the internet for 99% of my information. This includes, but is not limited to: personal experiences and/or opinions on message boards, wiki articles, essays, e-books that I'm in the process of reading. I do this research because I want to be informed - I want to have basic "theory" in my head before I engage so that I know in a round about way What is expected of me, what is expected of the Top, What the possible consequences of said activity could be. In addition to the theory, I can agree that the bottom would have to "research" the Top, (as was mentioned several times in the EM thread) and vise versa.

In terms of Fault - (for lack of a better word)
I do -not- want to be a victim so I try to learn from sources I have access to. But there will be a point where I -do- start to try things in real life and I might make mistakes... something unexpected might happen. So... my fault for not knowing that what I did or didn't do was a mistake? Yes and No... theory can only get me so far.


quote:

I still can't help but feel that the Dominant/Top has an especial responsibility in ensuring that the scene does not turn disastrous.

Top's fault for not preventing something from happening? - Yes and No... they may have experience but they can't possibly be perfect and prepare for every single unexpected thing that might happen.

In terms of Responsibility-
It seems to me like it would have to be taken in context of any particular situation. I work in a very busy, very stressful pizza shop and when something goes wrong everyone's finger points to the guy to the left, no one wants to be held accountable because it makes them feel stupid/silly/inexperienced. Seems to be I would need to be responsible enough afterward to say..."this part felt really freakin amazing but I think my rib is broken" and it would be the Top's responsibility to be like "alright.. let's get that checked out" It sounds very nice in theory.

My two cents. And so even if no real consensus can be derived from these discussions, I really feel like these related threads are helping me to recognize what to look for, what to avoid, what to strive for. So thank you.





LaTigresse -> RE: Responsibility of a Dominant/Top - some thoughts (8/14/2012 7:54:15 AM)

NV....you ROCK!




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