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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 9:03:42 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
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Status: offline 		Thank you, LW!

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 9:05:30 PM   
littlewonder


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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 9:11:26 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

I was actually thinking of asking you to come play "god's advocate" since you do  such a good job as devil's advocate over in  the gorean forum. How bout it?


Are you asking me to defend the hypothesis of Earth being a mere 6000 years old and account for the fossil record?

Cause I think I hear some neurons yelling "no, not the foot!" at the idea of how far I'm going to have to dilate them to go there.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 9:26:43 PM   
FrostedFlake


Posts: 3084
Joined: 3/4/2009
From: Centralia, Washington
Status: offline 		All right then, Aswad. You have done so well so far, how bout you poke a hole in my theory that the universe is actually a black hole, viewed from inside.

It ain't turtles all the way down, it's black holes all the way up.

To what, I have no idea. But I can always add another turtle.

(That should keep you busy.)

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 9:31:01 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

All right then, Aswad. You have done so well so far, how bout you poke a hole in my theory that the universe is actually a black hole, viewed from inside.

It ain't turtles all the way down, it's black holes all the way up.

To what, I have no idea. But I can always add another turtle.

(That should keep you busy.)

That is entirely possible. One way of viewing a black hole is that the material 'beyond' the event horizon is effectively in a universe seperate and distinct from this one.

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 9:42:18 PM   
igor2003


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

For me science and my belief in God match up perfectly well. We have to keep in mind that Genesis is the first book of the Old Testament which is the Jewish Torah. When it was written, numbers were symbolic and therefore the 7 days held a special meaning. 7 is a divine number in Kabbalah. If you look throughout the bible you will see many patterns of 7 and of other numbers such as 40. Now, each day was not a literal 24 hour day but was meant to symbolize thousands of years of creation and evolution. So you see, there is no contradiction. There have been many evolutionary stages designed by God that complement science and since God created everything there would be no reason science would not match.


So are you saying that when God first created the earth it didn't rotate in a 24 hour cycle, and instead it took thousands of years to turn once on it's axis?  Or, if you think it did rotate in a 24 hour cycle (or very close to it) then why is the "and the evening and the morning were the first (second, third, etc.) day" even mentioned if it is instead talking about periods of thousands of years?  It seems like it is mentioned to define an actual 24 hour period instead of eons.  Just wondering how those particular phrases (evening and morning etc.) works with your interpretation of the creation taking thousands of years.

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 9:45:34 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Status: offline 		I like turtles. And tortoises. I call them all turtles, just to mess with folks.

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 10:03:39 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		again...it was not meant to be a literal interpretation.

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 10:13:41 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

You have done so well so far, how bout you poke a hole in my theory that the universe is actually a black hole, viewed from inside.


Current findings seem to suggest that the universe changed its macroscopic dimensionality at some point in the past. Something about the polarization of the cosmic microwave background, if memory serves. This also makes intuitive sense: more dimensions for the same energy content gives you less tension, and I'm fairly certain it results in less entropy. Imagine an explosion between a pair of plates. At first, the pressure moves rapidly outwards in a plane, then the plates buckle and the pressure gets to expand in three dimensions instead of two.

I'm not aware of work done in regard to it, but if the timing coincides, such a change could perhaps account for the transition from the inflationary epoch to the calmer universe we see today. This because the reduced tension would show up as a change in the cosmological constant at the point in time when the dimensionality changes. If remaining tension is in the right range, this might also lead to a future change in dimensionality. Of course, this is just idle speculation, and I don't have a particular grasp of mathematics, physics or cosmology, so take it for what it is.

Anyway, if the dimensionality has changed, that does not seem to be in accordance with your black hole hypothesis. A black hole is for causal purposes a two dimensional surface in our universe. In a higher dimensionality universe, one might of course envision a black hole forming with a three dimensional causal surface. However, the internal dimensionality has no reason to change, to the best of my knowledge. The tension is fixed by the gravitational mass of the black hole, and the shape is set by the initial conditions during its collapse. As such, I would not expect to see any indication of such a change.

Seeing as there are indications of such a change, I would say I've poked a hole in your hypothesis. Not necessarily a goatse class hole, but certainly there are testable predictions that follow from the hypothesis, and there appears to be more in favor of it being false than it being validated. Again, I'm not qualified to address it, but to the extent that I'm able, I would tend to reject it as being "probably false" as a hypothesis on which to base a model of our universe- physically or metaphysically.

Entertaining idea, but it didn't keep me busy very long.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 10:32:19 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

So are you saying that when God first created the earth it didn't rotate in a 24 hour cycle, and instead it took thousands of years to turn once on it's axis?


Think of it as seven movements, like in a musical piece.

The word does not necessarily mean day.

quote:

Or, if you think it did rotate in a 24 hour cycle (or very close to it) then why is the "and the evening and the morning were the first (second, third, etc.) day" even mentioned if it is instead talking about periods of thousands of years?


I think you put your foot in your mouth.

That, of course, is not something you can literally do. Well, most of us can't, anyhow. It's a figure of speech. This is one of those wonderfully human things we do. There is no word on the tip of my tongue, yet the phrase elegantly conveys an idea that we- at the time it was coined- lacked a better way to describe. Thus, your argument doesn't fly. And not just because it isn't a bird. Some arguments do magically (actually, metaphorically) flap their wings and fly, though, sometimes quite well. But we also know arguments neither possess wings nor fly.

The dawn of an era. The long night. The twilight of the soul.

It isn't without precedent to speak of morning and evening in reference to the beginnings and endings of things, the demarcation of this from that in time, just as the light and darkness divide our lives into days and nights. In fact, it is probably one of the most used poetic expressions out there. And it was no doubt used more frequently in the vocabulary of shepherds in the ancient middle east than were words like "eon", to say nothing of "four rank tensor", which I myself use quite sparingly.

quote:

Just wondering how those particular phrases (evening and morning etc.) works with your interpretation of the creation taking thousands of years.


Fade in. CGI planet. Fade out. The Cylons were created by man.
Fade in. Robots move about. Fade out. They rebelled.
Fade in. Robots shoot people. Fade out. They evolved.
Fade in. Human robots look sexy. Fade out. There are many copies.
Fade in. Human robots dramatis personae. Fade out. And they have a plan.

Over 40 years of Battlestar Galactica pseudohistory summarized in five "days".

Any other questions?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

P.S.: Hope you don't mind, littlewonder.

EDIT: Fixed some shoddy wording.



< Message edited by Aswad -- 8/13/2012 10:34:14 PM >

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 10:53:41 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		Don't mind at all. Loved it, especially the Battlestar Galactica summary.

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 11:08:42 PM   
Karmastic


Posts: 1650
Joined: 4/5/2012
From: Los Angeles
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss



From the Bang My Head / Dinosaur thread:

How do you reconcile scientific conclusions which
you seem to believe with the story of creation?

I want to answer this in a NON-Pols/Rel thread.... but I didn't want to derail the thread it was on either.

The Christians who don't believe in evolution have their reasons... I believe rooted in "G*d created the heavens and the earth" Thus the wave the magic wand and poof there it is.

Why would one limit G*d by deciding HOW that creation took place?

To my mind it's not an issue ... By limiting the way G*d did / does something, we are limiting G*d. Personally, I choose not to do that.

Best wishes.
sunshine

first, i like your respect for g*d even though i don't believe there's a sentient or self aware g*d.

i like your reasoning, which is that if one believes in a sentient g*d, then one has to believe that g*d can do anything, so it's silly to try and reconcile the concepts.

no offense, but i believe humans tend to attribute things they don't understand to g*d, and that our race is still in its infantile stages.

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 11:19:06 PM   
ARIES83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

I was actually thinking of asking you to come play "god's advocate" since you do  such a good job as devil's advocate over in  the gorean forum. How bout it?


Are you asking me to defend the hypothesis of Earth being a mere 6000 years old and account for the fossil record?

Cause I think I hear some neurons yelling "no, not the foot!" at the idea of how far I'm going to have to dilate them to go there.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




Maybe...
The bible is the basis of biblical religion,
with the modern day science and understanding
available, biblical religion is having to interpret
more and more of the bible as metaphor or
abstract moralisation in order to keep it truth,

Continuing down this path... will lead to a basic
statement which can only be argued as a literal
fact ,because if the entire account in every part
is not literal truth then it is entirely fiction and
that is a very precarious point to be at.
Atleast the smallest part must be truth or it is
entirely, not truth.

So assuming as there is a basic foundational
literal statement which would have to be true,
what would it be?
If you choose to take up the gauntlet, you can
draw from the first torah to the NIV and pick the
statement you can best lend credence to.

That's if you want to take up the task because...
......Fuck.
If it sounds to much like hard work believe me I
wouldn't think any less of you, I actually think
highly of your posts even if they are a bit
speculative.

-ARIES

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 11:24:30 PM   
SubTrucker85


Posts: 24
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From: Defiance, OH
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Belief is not logic. Faith is not logic. Religion is not science.

I don't even see why anyone would bother to refute the claims. Look, religious people make all sorts of claims I don't agree with. I certainly don't spend my time trying to refute the bible. The fact that such thinking is taking over the American culture is, however, a serious problem for our country. If we go back to worshipping the spirits it's gonna be really hard to keep making new inventions.


How does believing in a higher power make it harder for new inventions to come along?

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 11:33:36 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		I remember getting into a lot of trouble with Sister Theresa in 3rd grade for suggesting that dinosaurs absolutely existed; that to deny the existence of bones, moreso than fossilized shapes, was silly. We have bones. These freakin' animals were here. We can't find any, now but that doesn't mean they were never here.

If that logic were true then, where's Jesus?

Oooooops!

I was sent to Fr. Laughlin's office. he was the principal. he asked me what the issue was and I answered.

When I told him that I thought that there was a lot of proof of evolution, he held his breath. When I told him it was how God made things happen so that he didn't have to reveal himself to us (God is not only dominant but he likes his anonymity), he smiled and told me that I understood things, perfectly.

I don't see how evolution negates the idea of an existence of a higher power.

I just don't see how a planet as intricate as this one could happen by "accident".

I've almost always believed in evolution but I've also always believed that it was authored by (and stewarded by) God.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 8/13/2012 11:38:00 PM >

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 11:34:18 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		And if anyone catches me talking like a robot outside of this thread I want you to shoot me...

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 11:46:46 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Current findings seem to suggest that the universe changed its macroscopic dimensionality....

Dude! Not only am I not smart enough to understand you. I don't even think I'm smart enough to read that post *laughs*. I'm assuming you have about 62 degrees and an IQ that can only be expressed in 4 dimensions?


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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 11:54:12 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SubTrucker85
How does believing in a higher power make it harder for new inventions to come along?

It is not the belief in a higher power that I find problematic. But when superstition becomes the norm then science fails. Science is already failing in America. Heck, most people in America do not even know what science IS. I have every respect for religious people. Heck, I might be one myself... certainly spiritual. But there is a difference between...

I believe in a god who created the universe(s)
and
...so rather than go to a doctor I'm gonna pray that he'll heal my cancer.

Literal creationism is not a scientific theory. It is myth & superstition. And for a high tech society to exist, science must win over myth and superstition else we are back to crouching in our caves and making offerings to the gods to bring the rains. Which... now that I think on it.. is exactly what we are doing with global warming.


< Message edited by JeffBC -- 8/14/2012 12:03:51 AM >

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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
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officially a member of the K Crowd

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Dinosaurs - 8/14/2012 12:22:15 AM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Current findings seem to suggest that the universe changed its macroscopic dimensionality....

Dude! Not only am I not smart enough to understand you. I don't even think I'm smart enough to read that post *laughs*. I'm assuming you have about 62 degrees and an IQ that can only be expressed in 4 dimensions?



Read New Scientist.

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/14/2012 5:45:38 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I remember getting into a lot of trouble with Sister Theresa in 3rd grade for suggesting that dinosaurs absolutely existed; that to deny the existence of bones, moreso than fossilized shapes, was silly. We have bones. These freakin' animals were here. We can't find any, now but that doesn't mean they were never here.

If that logic were true then, where's Jesus?

Oooooops!

I was sent to Fr. Laughlin's office. he was the principal. he asked me what the issue was and I answered.

When I told him that I thought that there was a lot of proof of evolution, he held his breath. When I told him it was how God made things happen so that he didn't have to reveal himself to us (God is not only dominant but he likes his anonymity), he smiled and told me that I understood things, perfectly.

I don't see how evolution negates the idea of an existence of a higher power.

I just don't see how a planet as intricate as this one could happen by "accident".

I've almost always believed in evolution but I've also always believed that it was authored by (and stewarded by) God.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

How far they've come. I taught science and coached at a Catholic HS in the mid/late 80's. During the interview, the monk who was interviewing me asked if I had any questions. I kinda smiled as I would be teaching Biology and he said "Let me anticipate and answer your question at the same time. We pride ourselves on preparing these boys for college. In science class, I want you to teach science. In religion class, I'll teach them religion."
In other words, he wanted me to stay the heck off his turf LOL.

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