RE: Touching without permission (Full Version)

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PeonForHer -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 9:08:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop
I'm a hugger.


Well just bugger me sideways with a red hot poker. Who would have thought it? Fancy that. Just when you think you've got to know someone, they say something completely counterintuitive like that. Well, well, well. Blow me down. [;)]



GreedyTop -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 9:17:09 AM)

GLadly, Peon Just get yourself over to this side of the Pond. Hibbie and I (as well as many other ladies) would be happy to oblige ;)



Itsalwaysthere -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 9:29:22 AM)

Wonderful topic.

I'm a hugger, too. There are considerations in both vanilla and BDSM setting that are simple, straightforward, courteous, and respectful that leave both parties feeling safe, worthwhile, and dealt with in kindness and not in flat refusal to accept current or future gestures of affection.

This is the common courtesy of just asking the potential hug-ee if they would like and accept a hug. Personal choice at this moment is something that even and especially subs and slaves deserve and are entitled to expect. Masters/Mistresses equally merit this recognition of the right to decide the level of intimacy that they choose to allow at any given moment. They are not exempt from these rights just because they own another and so might seem to be impregnable.

When in a BDSM situation, there is the issue of ownership that both simplifies and complicates the matter of personal contact. Some Masters/Mistresses can be very touchy on the matter of the touching of slaves by others, to say the least. Masters/Mistresses can be very touchy on the matter of allowing touching by their own slave, as well. It is both a BDSM issue of a slave's conduct, and also daily personal etiquette in the vanilla world.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 9:35:53 AM)

I don't think this is so much an etiquette issue, though I do agree many people are sadly lacking in that area, as a false sense of entitlement issue.

As sunshine pointed out, it was the sub in this instance who cried foul when someone touched her neck in a way she found inappropriate. Why did she do that?

B/c she saw herself as so danged special. Her sense of entitlement was so over-inflated, EVERYONE was supposed to know all about her, all about her limits, and all about her issues.

And it's that way with the men, they see the signs all over saying don't touch w/o permission, but they assume it doesn't apply to THEM. B/c they're too special.

This over-inflated sense of entitlement goes hat in hand with the victim mentality, IMO. The second one of these entitled people gets their nose bent out of joint, they run to the cops or to sue.




LadyPact -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 9:47:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Well just bugger me sideways with a red hot poker.

You know, that could be arranged.


quote:

Blow me down. [;)]
That, too.



GreedyTop -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 10:01:23 AM)

I agree with CP.


LadyP... you do realize it would be more cost efficient if Peon were to arrive on THIS coast. That means you might have to come east, quite a bit.


Darn.

;)



LadyConstanze -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 10:15:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I am Italian. Need I say more?

Luckily I am very very alert to social cues.


Same here, but my family was never very huggy, in fact it was considered quite gauche to have a public display of affection, you could talk gesticulating all you want but it was always important to be mindful of somebody's personal space (just like the "kiss kiss thing was always in the air, never lips on skin")or what the new agers call "aura". Basically most people don't jump at you with hugs if they don't know you, it's usually a hand shake and then touching the shoulder lightly with the other arm, this way the other person can decide if they want to step into the hug or disengage.
It's a bit like knocking on somebody's door, no matter how well I know the person, I knock and wait for "come in" and don't just run in, because it's their space and it's important to respect that.



sunshinemiss -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 4:58:52 PM)

I tried to find the thread but couldn't. Sorry. :(



LadyPact -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 5:06:56 PM)

Thank you for trying, sunny. [:)]

Is anybody able to find the original link?




Greta75 -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 5:16:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Oh come on people. When I'm talking to someone, and we are becoming more familiar, touch is naturally gonna happen. It's expected and normal. THAT is what we are talking about - not some yahoo run-of-the-mill dom who just walks up. We're not talking about groping, we're talking about a simple caress with someone you're talking with / flirting with.


Unacceptable, I don't like a man touching me at all, even any kind of physical contact if he doesn't own me. Unless I permit it, but he should ask permission and not assume.

I think a caress on the neck is kinda too presumptuous. I would have shut him down.









sunshinemiss -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 5:40:03 PM)

stages of courtship (from this website - easier to read rather than an academic article is)

Where the process reaches past the first stage, here broadly is how it is said by body language experts to unfold:

Eye contact (females typically lower or avert their eyes once firm contact is made).
Returned eye contact (by male).
Mutual smiling.
Preening, grooming, posturing (male and female).
Moving together as regards personal space (male typically walks to female).
Talking.
Attentive active listening (or simulation of this, sufficient mutually to retain sense of mutual interest).
Synchronizing/mirroring each other's body language.
Touching (more significantly by the female; subtle touching can happen earlier, and at this stage can become more intimate and daring).

Sorry... you flirt with someone and give them the signals and they up it one notch ONE NOTCH ... to me that is appropriate. You can then - as Constanze says - give the signal that touch is not acceptable. If you are giving all the signals, there is no way they can know that you are in fact lying. If they grope you, that's a different story. But a gentle touch when you are in the midst of a flirty conversation? Sorry, I'm going with the presumption that they are being positive and decent and they like me.

I am well acquainted with this particular topic from a cultural standpoint. I have lived in Latin cultures that are all about the touch - kissing hello and goodbye, dancing at the drop of a hat, holding hands as you walk along, a man's hand on my back to "steer" me. And now I live in Asia where touch has a completely different connotation and is not nearly as acceptable. (It's one of the few things I HATE about living here... somebody, PLEASE, touch me!) It's still done - in the same way listed above, but it is slower and less obvious.

Anyway, people touch. It's normal. It's healthy. It's NECESSARY. Children die without touch. We are social animals.

When someone says, "please don't touch me" or some such, THAT is to be respected. But heck, why would you be negotiating a scene with someone you didn't want to touch you? Mindboggling.








littlewonder -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 5:58:40 PM)

quote:

Eye contact (females typically lower or avert their eyes once firm contact is made).
Returned eye contact (by male).
Mutual smiling.
Preening, grooming, posturing (male and female).
Moving together as regards personal space (male typically walks to female).
Talking.
Attentive active listening (or simulation of this, sufficient mutually to retain sense of mutual interest).
Synchronizing/mirroring each other's body language.
Touching (more significantly by the female; subtle touching can happen earlier, and at this stage can become more intimate and daring).


Yup, this about covers the night Master and I met.
Can't say I really understand how you have a session without either one touching the other. I mean how does that work? They have someone else do the binding? No binding and you just use objects on them but far enough away that there's no skin contact whatsoever? LOL



sheisreeds -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 6:24:30 PM)

LadyPact, all of the original threads are pretty much obliterated, which is good for the girl who learned her lesson, grew up, and moved on.



kalikshama -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 7:40:24 PM)

quote:

(It's one of the few things I HATE about living here... somebody, PLEASE, touch me!)


When I'm not in a relationship I make a point of getting a professional massage from time to time.





sunshinemiss -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 10:11:19 PM)

oooooooo... smart. They do ex-foliating here, and DANG!!! Skin in places I didn't know I had skin...



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 10:15:57 PM)

~would love to be exfoliated~




sunshinemiss -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 10:32:53 PM)

Is it vain if I was hoping for an offer of someone to touch me? *sigh*

Lady Pact - I'm disappointed I couldn't find it.

She is reeds - I'm glad to hear that gal got growed up a bit. I read that she is (or was) somewhere here in Asia. Shame. My place could have been a soft spot to land. Ah well...



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Touching without permission (8/15/2012 10:40:25 PM)

~always willing to cuddle up to her HHH~



sunshinemiss -> RE: Touching without permission (8/16/2012 1:54:05 AM)

*whew* Thanks Hib!



Andalusite -> RE: Touching without permission (8/16/2012 10:19:35 PM)

It sounds like poor negotiations/groundwork on both their part, but it's quite different for someone to inadvertently do something in a scene that is triggering but wasn't announced as a hard limit, vs. just walking up to someone and grabbing their throat or ass.

Someone groped my bottom after a scene with someone else at a playparty once. I had met him once before, when he was at a function with a friend of mine. I was still quite floaty, so earnestly but barely coherently explained, "Is ok look, but no touch! Is bad et-tick-kit!" Someone else in a vanilla situation pinched my bottom once, and I kicked him in the nuts without really intending to. He startled me, and it was as much reflex as swinging your leg if the doctor uses that weird hammer on your knee. I suppose he claimed I "flipped out on him for no good reason," too. [8|] Generally, people aren't likely to get mad or hurt you if you accidentally brush against them in passing, or give them a hug, or some such.



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