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What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/16/2012 8:17:42 PM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline 		Ok, some context first... as most of you know, I have quite a bit of experience with the s-side of things. As most of you probably don't know, I also have quite a bit of experience with the sadist side of things, and though I haven't topped in a while, it's something I enjoy doing very much.
What I don't have experience with is the Domme side of things. I mean, I've been bossy in a scene before, but I don't exactly count that as dominating somebody, so I count my experience in that regard to be pretty much zero. However, it's been something I've been thinking about trying for a while, both offline, as well as online (I've had online relationships from the s-side of thing that I've enjoyed) though I still consider it rather unrealistic that I'll actually be able to find a s-type who is even remotely compatible with me, so I'm hardly looking with any sense of urgency.

Now that all being said...

There is this slave type guy that I've been chatting with of and on for about two years now. We've talked on the phone a couple times and seen each other on cam, but have never met in person.
He's funny, he's cute, he's smart, we like the same things, he can engage me in conversation for hours on end... in short... we're rather compatible and he's just about everything I'd actually look for in a slave boy.

However...

He never stops arguing with me... and it drives me insane.

It's not like I'm even trying to boss him around or anything like that. I mean, I've wanted to do so before, and I know he'd love to have me as his Domme, but every time I do so much as give him a suggestion, or tell him something, he get's in this super combative argument mode that he just doesn't seem to be able to snap out of.
I don't want him to be a mindless idiot, and I don't mind a little questions and stuff... but I don't want everything I say to be this endless debate that just goes off into nothingness until it drives me insane either.

To give an example:
He came to me last night and asked for my advice on some new profile pictures he's got. I told him what I thought (they're cock shots, so I told him I thought they where bad) and instead of accepting what I said and leaving it at that, he just dragged me into this two hour debate on whether or not women do or do not like cock shots, and whether or not his pictures where coming across X or Y to women, and what his intentions where, and....
I tried to put an end to it a couple of times, but he just doesn't let off until I'm so frustrated that I get pissed at him instead, and then he's all "sorry this and sorry that".

Now my questions (if anybody is still with me at this point) are:

- do any of you have any experience with this kind of sub?
- how do you handle it?
- do I even try to handle it, or is it best to just consider him a lost cause?
- has anybody ever had the chance to turn this kind of dynamic around and get to the point where the guy will actually give in and let it go at some point?

Consider how compatible we are in other areas, and how infatuated he is with me, I'd love to take it to a next level with him. But I just don't see how... everything I try seems to fail.
I mean, if I can't get him to a point where he can take my advice without argument after he explicitly asked for it, then how on Earth am I going to get him to follow orders without spending 2 hours debating every little nuance, potential outcome, and contingency?

ETA: I don't know if this is going to make the answers any different... but he's 27... and fresh out of law school.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 8/16/2012 8:37:07 PM >

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/16/2012 8:59:01 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		WHY is he arguing?

It could be that he gets off on provoking you and then getting put in his place.

Next time he tries to argue, cut him off and tell him that the discussion is over. He'll continue to argue - turn off the phone, and tell him that the two of you will have a 24 hour cooling off period. If he settles down, cool. If not, it's over.

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/16/2012 9:18:47 PM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline 		He says he doesn't' realize he's arguing with me until I'm pissed/frustrated/annoyed.
Despite me telling him plenty of warning that he's starting to get on my nerves before I get pissed.

I've told him before that if he was going to keep arguing with me I wasn't willing to talk to him and closed chat, or hung up and not talked to him for the rest of the day/week/month.
But it doesn't seem to work. Once we start talking again, he'll be fine for a while and then increasingly start to become argumentative again, until the whole cycle repeats itself.

I've pointed out to him that I like logical arguments, and debates for debates sake more than any other woman I know... and that if he gets *me* to the point that I'm going insane because he won't let off, he's got like a zero chance of every finding a woman to put up with him. He says he realizes that and has had this problem before in relationships, but doesn't realize when he's arguing and therefore can't manage to control himself.

Every time we talk about this, he seems very sincerely upset and sorry. He promises he'll do better... manages to keep that promise for about half an hour and then goes back to arguing every little irrelevant detail.

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I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/16/2012 9:26:53 PM   
JanahX


Posts: 3443
Joined: 8/21/2010
Status: offline 		Who knows why someone acts the way they do ... Except for the sound reasoning - that's just who they are, and thats how they act. Most likely its a personality trait - and its not going to change.

You need to be asking yourself why you feel the need to be involved with someone who wants to argue all the time. Is it fun for you? I myself can't stand people like that - I usually end up telling them to hit the road.

< Message edited by JanahX -- 8/16/2012 9:37:34 PM >

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/16/2012 9:27:44 PM   
MsLadySue


Posts: 2254
Joined: 12/18/2004
Status: offline 		Not sure if this has any validity but I'm wondering if it's his recent law training. They are taught to look at all sides of a situation and debate/argue the pros and cons/ins and outs/etc. Perhaps it's a learned trait that needs to be untaught. How that is done I have no idea.

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/16/2012 9:29:30 PM   
Wickad


Posts: 428
Joined: 3/12/2005
Status: offline 		(fast reply)

It takes two to argue.

Wickad

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/16/2012 9:31:31 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Sounds to me like he's not ready to accept his submissiveness and he's insecure with himself or he gets off on arguing with you, waiting for you to push him down but you said he seems sincerely upset by it so I'm going with his insecurity.

So I think you two need to have a conversation not about his arguing but about accepting himself as a sub or slave and not a bottom, unless he's simply a bottom and has no desire to really submit to you or anyone else.

If it was me, i would have him write a paper on his reasons for arguing, his submission, his desires.Make him delve into his psyche to see what is really causing him to do this. It may help him to discover more about himself than he realized.

There are times when I start arguing with Master and I don't even realize it. To me I'm just looking at all sides of the situation but he sees it as me trying to get my way or pushing my desires instead of his. At that point he just tells me to just shut up and listen and do. That works for me.

< Message edited by littlewonder -- 8/16/2012 9:33:42 PM >

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/16/2012 9:34:14 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Are you still just online only? If you are, why do you care? He realizes that you'll put up with his shit, therefore, he keeps doing it.

If you are willing to play this game, enjoy your time. If not, find someone who deserves you.




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Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/16/2012 9:35:10 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
He says he realizes that and has had this problem before in relationships, but doesn't realize when he's arguing and therefore can't manage to control himself.

Agree on a nonverbal cue. Something ridiculously over the top super obvious, like you start IMing in pink font. Tell him that once he sees that cue, he has to stop immediately, and say something like, "Thanks for talking with me about this. I see that we're not going to agree, so I'd like to change the subject. Is that ok?"

My two cents. Don't make the cue words. He gets lost in them. Make it a color, a movement, or a noise, and make it utterly impossible to miss.

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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/16/2012 9:35:24 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Why is something he needs to explore with a therapist. He acknowledges that this has been a problem with him in relationships before. Yet he won't go find alternatives to doing this. Obviously whatever he gets from this is greater than what he could get from a relationship. Perhaps what he gets from this is not being in a relationship.

If relationships require vulnerability and he's afraid of being vulnerable, then arguing and preventing relationships is giving him freedom from being vulnerable and hurt, again.

More important question, why do you keep getting into it with him when you know he won't change? Do you have a dream of being the one to save him from himself?

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/16/2012 9:49:41 PM   
MistressDarkArt


Posts: 5178
Status: offline
quote:

- do any of you have any experience with this kind of sub?
yes
- how do you handle it?
dump him
- do I even try to handle it, or is it best to just consider him a lost cause?
see number 2 above
- has anybody ever had the chance to turn this kind of dynamic around and get to the point where the guy will actually give in and let it go at some point?
Not worth the bother. Too many other fishies out there to waste time on a stinker.
quote:

ETA: I don't know if this is going to make the answers any different... but he's 27... and fresh out of law school.

Argue in the courtroom, not the bedroom.

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/16/2012 10:01:22 PM   
Toppingfrmbottom


Posts: 6528
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		Maybe refuse to give him advice or your opinion until he stops arguing when you do.

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/16/2012 10:51:39 PM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline 		Thanks for your responses everybody. You've basically confirmed that the direction I was already leaning is about my only choice with him, unless I decide I just want to put up with it indefinitely.

LP, yes this has been online only so far.

As far as why I've put up with it as long as I have.

I really like him. When he's not annoying me we have a great time together. I can talk to him about a variety of topics that I generally can't find a lot of people to talk to about. We click on a whole series of things that are important to me in friends/potential subs, that has proven to be extremely hard to find over the course of my life time (as in, I have literally less than a handful of people currently in my life with whom I can talk about this broad a range of subjects with ease with.)

It's just that, in the end I'm not quite sure if everything he brings to the table, regardless of how big a stack it is, is really worth me putting up with the perpetual headache he causes.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/17/2012 1:14:45 AM   
Alecta


Posts: 1355
Joined: 1/19/2010
Status: offline 		I feel like the problem is that he is responding to you like a friend and not his Mistress.
They used to say familiarity breeds contempt and cite that as the reason for the upstairs people to keep themselves apart from the downstairs, and that, sadly, is true.

You need to decide if you'd be happy just to have him as a friend or if you NEED him to be your sub, and the meaning of "being your sub" needs to be clearly communicated. There are ways of drawing his focus and correcting bad behaviour such as these though it is a harder thing to do when your only interactions are long distance or online. The real question then becomes if it's worth the effort?

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/17/2012 1:30:52 AM   
lilmissdefiant


Posts: 666
Joined: 4/17/2008
Status: offline 		If he doesn't know he's being argumentative (beyond the point of annoyance) and you've told him that your getting irritated, you need to simply say "Look I've given you my opinion, you don't like it fair enough, until we can agree to disagree I am not going speak/chat with you about the subject"

Every time you continue to argue with him you are encouraging the behavior. You need to stop enabling him. If he wants you to take control of the situation then do that, don't give in to what he wants, do what you feel is right for you (and by extension whats best for the both of you)

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/17/2012 2:05:44 AM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta

I feel like the problem is that he is responding to you like a friend and not his Mistress.


This.

I think you need to clarify with him, and with yourself, what exactly your relationship is.

When I first started chatting with Master, we were online friends. We would chat about anything and everything, and occasionally we would argue about stuff. He would get annoyed, I would get annoyed and one (or both) of us would log off and cool down.

We then met in person, and started dating. For several months we were still totally 'nilla, just dating and getting to know each other. We still had the occasional disagreement and we are both so stubborn that neither one would back down

Then we agreed that we would start a D/s relationship. At that point, we stopped arguing because he has the last word. If he says "that's the end of it", then that's how it works. However annoyed I may be that he hasn't agreed that I was right, the discussion was over.

Maybe a heart to heart needs to take place here. Decide what the dynamic is, and then agree upon the rules. Until he is your sub he's under no obligation to do as you want.

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/17/2012 2:21:23 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
He says he realizes that and has had this problem before in relationships, but doesn't realize when he's arguing and therefore can't manage to control himself.

Agree on a nonverbal cue. Something ridiculously over the top super obvious, like you start IMing in pink font. Tell him that once he sees that cue, he has to stop immediately, and say something like, "Thanks for talking with me about this. I see that we're not going to agree, so I'd like to change the subject. Is that ok?"

My two cents. Don't make the cue words. He gets lost in them. Make it a color, a movement, or a noise, and make it utterly impossible to miss.


Excellent. That would work for me - a bona fide argumentative sod. I instantly had an image of that pink font and thought, 'Ah. Roger that.'

*And hello again, Red. Good to see you, old boy.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 8/17/2012 2:22:28 AM >

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/17/2012 3:34:15 AM   
MsSylverdawn


Posts: 147
Joined: 9/26/2011
Status: offline 		I agree you need to define the relationship your in... as your friend he has the right to argue away.....if you dynamic is a power exchange then not so much... and an non verbal que is a good idea... have a serious chat and then decide... friend or sub...

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/17/2012 5:57:51 AM   
SadisticMs2


Posts: 203
Joined: 8/10/2011
Status: offline 		He's a lawyer. That's what they do.

The plus side is that he's picked a career that he's well suited for.

The minus side is that in general, lawyers make lousy subs.

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RE: What if he won't stop arguing? - 8/17/2012 6:29:36 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		I had a lawyer who was a fantastic sub, though I admit he was rather testy during the trial period, so to speak. (I *do* crack myself up with these puns).

I have to assume a lawyer wanting to sub would be quite a bit like me in terms of being a very dual personality, so either very dom or very sub, not a lot of in between. Not the easiest person to dominant, but a very rewarding one to dominant once you get them into a dynamic you can both agree on. Expect the negotiations to take some time.

This man is testing you to see if you are strong enough to be his dom. Yes, it can be seen as rather childish, but it's been my experience *most* subs test their potential dom in some way.

Although I love a lively debate between mature individuals willing to agree to disagree in the end, this is not what it sounds like is happening. I don't engage in pissing contests, and you shouldn't either.

The next time he begins arguing say: "Oh, you are arguing." Hang up the phone or close the chat window.

Do not engage in any further conversation of any kind for at least 24 hours. When you do engage say "Are you done arguing?" If he says yes, proceed as normal. Do not refer to the argument in any way. If he says no, disengage again. He will get the message or go away.







< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 8/17/2012 6:30:51 AM >

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