quote:

As just posted by Tantriqu on another thread:

"The comic Elayne Boosler said we can only achieve peace and harmony once men realise that it's not kinky underwear that makes women wet, but taking out the garbage without being reminded and replacing the bin liner without being asked."

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

I believe everybody lies. I trust people who claim they never lie even less than I do people who can admit to lying sometimes.

That being said, I don't believe everybody necessarily lies about the big things, but everybody has little omissions, or embellishments, or white lies they tell not meaning harm, or that just come out to cover up their own insecurity. Most everybody also has, at some point in their lives, fucked up and lied about a big thing to a person they cared about and hurt that person badly.

What I care about is not that people lie, but how they lie, and why they lie, and most importantly, how they deal with the lie after the truth has come out. Somebody who stubbornly hold on to a lie after the truth has come to light, instead of dealing with their fuck up, fixing the mistake and moving on earns no respect from me in the process. On the other hand, a person who can honorably deal with the aftermath of a lie, own up to it, and set out to set things right while learning something in the process, can earn a great deal of my respect while doing so.

I personally try not to lie. I consider it an extremely bad habit that gets worse the more you practice it. That being said, who I'm lying to matters a lot to me in deciding how much I care about lying to them. I more rigorously attempt to be honest to people close to me than I am with strangers, to the point of really not having qualms at all about lying to strangers in the right set of circumstances.

In relationships I expect lies to happen sometimes, especially in the initial courtship period when everybody is trying to present themselves just a little better than they are. What I don't tolerate in relationship are malicious lies, that had the intend of causing harm. Lies of insecurity, vanity, impulse, embellishment or defensiveness I can easily get passed, provided the person deals with them in the appropriate manner after being caught.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Carol is much, much more honest and honorable than me (for the record, she quibbles with that statement ... or at least feels it doesn't capture the whole truth). But I have definitely lied to her in non-trivial ways. It's a guaranteed fact that I could not (and would not want to try) to measure up to the standards of honesty normally discussed on these boards. "Doing good" is higher on my priority tree than "telling the truth". And then... of course, there's always the just plain bad decisions.

I don't know what to tell you. I suspect it was the thoroughness of the recovery after the fuck-up that made it seem like not such a big deal to her. I know that most people here have standards of truthfulness that I do not meet. I don't think of myself as particularly honest. I think I'm a real mixed bag truthfully. I'm generally good but I fail sometimes. I'm generally nice but there's an almost sociopathic core underneath that truly does not place much intrinsic value on human life. I make friends readily and resist making enemies but I am ruthless with my enemies seeking maximum aggression as quickly as possible.

If I remember, when Carol gets back from travelling I'll see if I can get her to post and answer why on god's green earth does she trust me?

I can tell you for me personally I don't have all that much interest in people's fuck-ups assuming they are not a commonly recurring event. I'm WAY more interested in how they recover from them. That's where I think I can actually measure someone's strength and honor. That's why I wouldn't divorce Carol even if she cheated on me (doubly damned on both marital and M/s angles). I'd be VERY closely attuned to how she handled herself in the recovery period though.

Hell yes on all of this... since when are you my ghost writer Jeff?

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

While I do not support lies and deceit; I do support forgiveness. Before I walk out the door, I make it a point to find out the REASON behind the lie. That's what is the deciding factor for me.
I have been in situations where the reason was enough for forgiveness and a second chance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
As just posted by Tantriqu on another thread:

"The comic Elayne Boosler said we can only achieve peace and harmony once men realise that it's not kinky underwear that makes women wet, but taking out the garbage without being reminded and replacing the bin liner without being asked."

quote:

who cares about the garbage? if you want it taken out take it out yourself.. then the guy doesnt have to lie about it (bonus!).. another case of sweating the small stuff, imo..

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

As for DaddySatyre's story about taking out the garbage, that's a lie I wouldn't tell. I'd just own up to the truth - "No, I didn't take it out, I forgot. Can I get up a few minutes early to do it in the morning?" And then I'd go with what the answer was. Over here, though, forgetting things like that isn't a big deal. What if the Mister happened to get up earlier than me by some fluke? Say there was a noise outside that he wanted to go check on? And then noticed the garbage wasn't out? That would create a much bigger issue than my just telling the truth. It would risk him not believing me in the future, when I *was* being truthful.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

who cares about the garbage? if you want it taken out take it out yourself.. then the guy doesnt have to lie about it (bonus!).. another case of sweating the small stuff, imo..

If I do ever single thing inside the house and his sole responsibility is to take out the garbage, then yes, I do get pissed off if he can't remember it.

Now, I take out the garbage, but I no longer cook for him, fold his laundry or pick up after him. He'd have been better off taking out the garbage.

[Not taking out the garbage wasn't the only issue, but is emblematic.]

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

As for DaddySatyre's story about taking out the garbage, that's a lie I wouldn't tell. I'd just own up to the truth - "No, I didn't take it out, I forgot. Can I get up a few minutes early to do it in the morning?" And then I'd go with what the answer was. Over here, though, forgetting things like that isn't a big deal. What if the Mister happened to get up earlier than me by some fluke? Say there was a noise outside that he wanted to go check on? And then noticed the garbage wasn't out? That would create a much bigger issue than my just telling the truth. It would risk him not believing me in the future, when I *was* being truthful.

I think you may have missed the actual point of post.

The issue; what the lie was about was specifically a non-starter to show that there is no such thing (to my mind) as a "small" lie.

It also helped to illustrate that what isn't important to me might be important to someone else.

This was all a very long time ago (I filed for seperation/divorce in 1995) and I used that terrible situation as a learning experience.

I brought it up to explain the main points; the thrust of my post.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
I just reread your post and you are right. Not sure where my brain's wirings were when I read it the first time, but I apologize for missing the crux of it.

But it actually keeps the point of my response to your post relevant, and underscores what you said - lying about taking out the garbage risks creating bigger issues than just telling the truth about it.

And yeah, I lied a lot in my marriage, too. Which was also a long time ago. I did it for self-preservation, although *real* self preservation would have just been to leave sooner than I did.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
I just reread your post and you are right. Not sure where my brain's wirings were when I read it the first time, but I apologize for missing the crux of it.

But it actually keeps the point of my response to your post relevant, and underscores what you said - lying about taking out the garbage risks creating bigger issues than just telling the truth about it.

And yeah, I lied a lot in my marriage, too. Which was also a long time ago. I did it for self-preservation, although *real* self preservation would have just been to leave sooner than I did.

Trust me no need to apologize but, I need to stress this: "lying about taking out the garbage risks creating bigger issues than just telling the truth about it." In the case of my marriage/story, the garbage issue was the reverse of how you're quote that I just pasted portrays it.

The garbage was one of those little things that was to get on the nerves and under the skin. It was a by-product of the bigger issues that would definitely have caused a full-on row instead of just a minor frustration.

quote:

dont those issues tend to come to the surface before you live together?

quote:

But even people who lie about one thing, don't lie about everything. Why would they when asked if they want chocolate or vanilla ice cream?

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

In another thread and one of many I have seen over the years. Person A finds out that person B has lied and cheated and the relationship comes to an end in a ball of flames. Lost count of how many times I have seen it. What keeps amazing me is that each time it happens the apparent victim makes statements that just throw me for a loop. person B lied and cheated... But they still hold on to statements from person B like they are truth. IE... As in this last thread.. We didn't spend time at his place because his roommates don't understand etc etc... Say what. The guy lied and cheated... Why do they hold on to anything as true. Not to say everything was a lie... But to me anything that wasn't supported by other means would be immediately suspect. When a cheater and liar is discovered in my eyes... Even the truth is lost when it's truth. Hense why to me lies are so damaging to a relationship.

But I suppose that is me... What of you...are as quick to throw out the bath water and maybe the baby to when the lies are discovered? How do lies affect you and the relationships you been in. I am not saying the little white lies like does my ass look fat in this dress? Dear you ass looks wonderful to me in that dress. No I am talking about those things that are important to you that would shake the relationship.. How do you handle it? How do you hope to handle it?