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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 2:19:17 PM   
Ninebelowzero


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Status: offline 		My 8 yr old boy did a term on WW2 this year, it covered nothing about the war apart from how the working classes suffered in the blitz & through rationing. A fine example of cultural marxism.

he was given a printed timeline that stated that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour in 1942 but the U.S.A entered the war in 1939, I used his red pencil quite a bit on that one.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 2:22:29 PM   
spartanray


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Status: offline 		Well at least he has you to put him right. I have known kids who have heard of WW2 but think it was over 100 years ago! But so long as they can pass meaningless exams, it ok!

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 2:29:17 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

We were taught that the French would be speaking German now, if it weren't for the US and UK.


It is important to bear in mind that so would the US and UK, if not for the USSR and France.

Worth taking a moment to picture the Führer on Fox.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




I didn't say it was right, I said it's what we were taught. I think for most of us we reach a certain age and realize that our governments don't always tell the citizens the absolute truth.



It sounds so conspiratorial when you pin faulty history lessons on "our governments." I went to school a long time ago and have learned more since by reading on my own. I agree that the lessons were faulty and slanted. But the government doen't select the history books. Actually, state governments and their divisions have a much greater influence than the Federal Government. So, maybe a mix of textbook selection, cautious publishers who wish to sell books, and teachers who fail to turn to other literature created a distorted orthodoxy. This is a fascinating topic and especially controversial when Biology books are selected. If you are interested you might have a look at Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District, et al.

I agree with Aswad that Hitler lead Germany into a suicide mission when they attacked Russia > Operation Barbarossa. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_invasion_of_Russia

Great topic.



Actually, I think he might have survived the disaster in Russia, had he not declared war on the US - the US declared war on Japan after the Pearl Harbor attack and Hitler in all his delusions of grandeur decided to declare war on the US (unless I am completely wrong it was Germany declaring war on the US and not the other way round) and in the end it broke his neck (not before time though)

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 2:30:45 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ninebelowzero

My 8 yr old boy did a term on WW2 this year, it covered nothing about the war apart from how the working classes suffered in the blitz & through rationing. A fine example of cultural marxism.



Blimey, Nine, how the hell is that "cultural marxism"? What does "cultural marxism" even mean?!

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 2:31:36 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Up here, the emphasis was on the UK and the USSR, with the US and France secondarily, and little mention of anyone else until one starts poking enough holes in it for the teachers to say "fuck it... I dunno... I'm just repeating what I learned in school myself.", and so I eventually arrived at the conclusion that Germany defeated Germany, with a lot of help from the UK, US, USSR and France (with the latter mostly being useful as a front, tying up enormous resources by actually resisting with some success).

Me, I'm more curious about what Germans are taught about it.


I googled this:

It's being done to death and it's made abundantly clear that we were the bad guys. Especially in the case of the Third Reich, it's covered multiple times over the course of a student's career, and with particular emphasis on the Holocaust. We are told in no uncertain terms that this is what happened and that it must never happen again.

Also, in German society, losing WWII is less considered to be having our asses kicked and more as a liberation from a madman and a criminal government who held the German people hostage (this is partly due to a very important speech of our president, Richard von Weizsäcker, in the mid-80s).

WWI is not as widely covered, lacking the particular atrocities of the Holocaust and the comic-like clear lines of good guys vs. bad guys. We do learn about it, but in the collective mind of the German people, 1933-1945 is by far the more defining period.

National pride is actually a major issue, in that people are constantly discussing whether you should even be allowed to be "proud" of your country, since it's nothing you achieved yourself. This changed a bit during the 2006 world cup, where we were able to celebrate our country without feeling guilty about it. Outside of major sporting events, though, you are not going to find German flags flying in the street. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=609991

quote:


Incidentally, the importance of the heavy water sabotage is not uncontroversial, as making a nuclear bomb and deploying it in a successful manner is a complicated and involved puzzle. No one thing secures success by itself, and several things can cause a failure. We did bring something else to the table, though: logistics. Put the fourth largest fleet of ships around at the time to work transporting oil and parts for the US and the UK, with some one-in-ten seamen lost in the course of the war. Material and fuel probably had a higher impact than the heavy water.

History is an interesting field. The school subject is an amusing fiction. In any nation.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




I think its pretty unanimous that all countries do the same thing. Maybe its a sort of compensation for the loss of our men.


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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 2:36:33 PM   
Ninebelowzero


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Status: offline 		He who owns the means of production wins. With the Lend Lease policy in place & Russia on the other side The Reich's days were numbered. Perhaps VE day would of been closer to 1950 but it was inevitable. Germany ran on synthetic petroleum made from coal & had a predominantly horse drawn army. It's logistics train was a Cluster Fuck of monumental proportions. It's tanks althoughh good were few in numbers & hideously over engineered & fragile in poor weather. It poured to much resource into specials such ass the V2 rather than mass production & was doomed from the moment Britain entered the war. We could of done it without GI's but not mass productionUS style. However we needed commonwealth troops more than we like to admit.

Thank fuck for Canada.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 2:36:45 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentMLI agree with Aswad that Hitler lead Germany into a suicide mission when they attacked Russia > Operation Barbarossa. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_invasion_of_Russia

Great topic.


Hitler was basically an incompetent as a military tactician. Without some spectacularly stupid cock-ups on his part, I do believe the Brits, at least, might be speaking German now.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 2:40:36 PM   
ladynlord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I was not popular with that professor.



I received a similar cold shoulder when I asked a college professor about something called the "Bay of Pigs"? I had never been taught anything about it or even heard about it during all of the High School history classes and stumbled upon it while doing a college research paper on the Cuban missile crises.
Granted, a much smaller event that WWII, but it was just sort of left out.
As for the topic, the importance of involvement of any of the WWII allies could be assessed by looking at the memoirs of Winston Churchill and his wartime efforts for US intervention. Even the fact of the American fighter pilots who joined the "effort" before the USA entered the war should be telling.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 2:44:57 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Status: offline 		Oh my! I mentioned the Bay of Pigs to one of my students, and he thought I MADE IT UP. Not only could no place have such a stupid name, but nothing of historical import can have happened there. That i knew people who had been on the ground there during the events made no difference.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 2:51:43 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Hmmm...... I remember when I was in college the first time, writing degrees in history and anthropology. I asked one of the american history professors why we never discussed Vietnam with any depth, since we LIVED through it. Did we need to have all the participants dead in order to do a proper decontstruction?

I was not popular with that professor.



We were completely mislead at school regarding Americas involvement in the Vietnam and Korean war. It was never mentioned that the Americans initially went in to defend and financially help the French.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 2:51:48 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

I think its pretty unanimous that all countries do the same thing. Maybe its a sort of compensation for the loss of our men.


Good point. In the British play and film The History Boys the tutor takes his small group on a tour of war monuments and tells them the monuments are there to help us forget!

Thank you for the info on the German pov.

Excellent post

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 2:52:01 PM   
ladynlord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
That i knew people who had been on the ground there during the events made no difference.

Yep, indoctrinated to NOT let facts confuse their opinions/ignorance.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 3:06:11 PM   
fetishtvslave4BD


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Status: offline 		The Germans lost more men and material on the Eastern Front fighting the Soviets than against every other country they were fighting combined. That having been said I doubt the Russians could have defeated the Germans without Hitlers only declaration of war in WW2 against the USA. The Germans just didn't have enough men to fight a three front war and the allies slowly ground the Nazis down, even though it wasn't until the last few months of the war that the Germans starting losing more men than the Allies.

As for the start of the war it wasn't in September of 1939 for the Chinese, it was in July of 1937. The Nazis might have been horrid but after the war was over Germany was made aware of its criminal deeds during wartime. Supposedly, many Japanese textbooks never mention the Rape of Nanking or the Bataan Death March and there seems to be a collective agreement among the Japanese nation to pretend that their country did nothing bad during the war. I visited the Nanjing Rape Museum and it's pretty gruesome. The Nazis had organized extermination while the Japanese occasionally engaged in psychopathic butchery. They deserved the atomic bombs and every bad thing that happened to them during the war.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 3:15:06 PM   
KYsissy


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Status: offline 		If you have not seen Band of Brothers. You should. I would say the most accurate depiction of the european theater has told from the point of view of several members of the first airborne division. Not a gung ho John Wayne movie. Just the story of the guys who were there. As told by the guys who were there.

As for what I learned in school it wasn't much. Growing up I had a next door neighbor who was among the first 100 people to hit the beach on 5 separate landings in the south pacific. And a relative was a decorated pilot in the pacific. So my curiosity was piqued and I became a voracious reader on the subject.

My take is Britain and Russia took the brunt of it. And that bought time for the US to retool its industrial complex. And thank god Hitler was an idiot and broke the treaty with Russia before finishing off england.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 3:17:41 PM   
RemoteUser


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Status: offline 		Canadian classrooms in my era taught that Canada's influence was near the end, that we helped open the way for the better-equipped Americans, who then brought the muscle to charge through the holes we punched in the front lines (along with other countries).

We didn't get into right or wrong because the teacher was heavy into facts, and low on opinions.

I have seen skewed teaching before. Several of my younger friends in the United States thought I made up the War of 1812, because why would anyone - Canadians, Frenchmen or the English - burn down the White House...? Living in the Niagara Region as I do, the landscape is littered with statues and points of interest for history buffs.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 3:20:19 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Hmmm...... I remember when I was in college the first time, writing degrees in history and anthropology. I asked one of the american history professors why we never discussed Vietnam with any depth, since we LIVED through it. Did we need to have all the participants dead in order to do a proper decontstruction?

I was not popular with that professor.



We were completely mislead at school regarding Americas involvement in the Vietnam and Korean war. It was never mentioned that the Americans initially went in to defend and financially help the French.



Most Americans have no idea what's been done to further American interests around the globe. We're far from shining stars.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 3:23:28 PM   
Ninebelowzero


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Status: offline 		The invasion of Britain was a non starter, thge majority of the German forces were to be towed in Barges, as the invasion became iminent the Home Fleet kept at Scapa Flow would of sailed to intercept with orders to ram & sink every thing afloat. Paparswere released last year showing trhe Royal Navy's game plan. Most historians agree that the Germans would of suffered a massive defeat & lost vital equipment in the attempt.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 3:37:03 PM   
KYsissy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Hmmm...... I remember when I was in college the first time, writing degrees in history and anthropology. I asked one of the american history professors why we never discussed Vietnam with any depth, since we LIVED through it. Did we need to have all the participants dead in order to do a proper decontstruction?

I was not popular with that professor.



We were completely mislead at school regarding Americas involvement in the Vietnam and Korean war. It was never mentioned that the Americans initially went in to defend and financially help the French.



Most Americans have no idea what's been done to further American interests around the globe. We're far from shining stars.


Totally agree. I would only add to what has been done. And is being done. Mercenaries still exist. When some dirty eork needs to be done, th US has a large database of soldiers for hire. And they trained most of them. This is why the special forces have such a retention problem. Too much money to be made as a free agent.

I will also add, iraq and afghanistan. It's not terrorism it's not oil. Those are the cover story is that you are happy for you to believe. I think it is truly about getting a foot on the back door of china. My own opinion take it for what it is worth

< Message edited by KYsissy -- 8/17/2012 3:45:52 PM >

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 3:39:34 PM   
GreedyTop


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this is an intersting topic :)

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 4:36:22 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy

This is why the special forces have such a retention problem. Too much money to be made as a free agent.


Selection, retention, training, logistics and equipment are the ingredients of special forces. If wages are a significant factor in retention, you're doing something wrong. FSK seems able to keep the retention at a decent level, despite no more than about $100.000/yr (for comparison, that's about twice the pay of a second lieutenant in the ordinary branches). Clearly, people don't go there for the money in the first place.

IWYW,
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