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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 4:54:58 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

I had an interesting conversation with a French woman recently about who defeated the Nazis in World War II.
French school children are taught that it was very much the French who won the war and whilst they accept that there was a contribution from Western Allies and the Russians, it was a very small contribution.

I was brought up in the UK. At school we were led to believe that we played a very major part in World War II. That we liberated France along with the French Resistance and the Americans and that the Soviet Union played very much a secondary role. There was never a mention about countries such as Norway who actually carried out the most successful act of sabotage that crippled the Nazis and disabled their ability to make nuclear weapons.

I would be interested to hear what American children are taught in school about World War II?

One of the things we were taught was....the U.S. (and Allies) saved the world...turning back Adolph....turns out some Russian General was more involved in turning the tide than the Allies.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 5:19:14 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
We were completely mislead at school regarding Americas involvement in the Vietnam and Korean war. It was never mentioned that the Americans initially went in to defend and financially help the French.

Actually they went in to corner the hard drugs market.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 5:31:12 PM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

We were taught that the French would be speaking German now, if it weren't for the US and UK.

It is important to bear in mind that so would the US and UK, if not for the USSR and France.

Worth taking a moment to picture the Führer on Fox.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

I didn't say it was right, I said it's what we were taught. I think for most of us we reach a certain age and realize that our governments don't always tell the citizens the absolute truth.

It sounds so conspiratorial when you pin faulty history lessons on "our governments." I went to school a long time ago and have learned more since by reading on my own. I agree that the lessons were faulty and slanted. But the government doen't select the history books.

Actually, the information flow during the time of war is mostly control by the federal government, especially WWII. The "approved" information that came through is what has made it into those text books.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 5:33:54 PM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy

Totally agree. I would only add to what has been done. And is being done. Mercenaries still exist. When some dirty eork needs to be done, th US has a large database of soldiers for hire. And they trained most of them. This is why the special forces have such a retention problem. Too much money to be made as a free agent.

I will also add, iraq and afghanistan. It's not terrorism it's not oil. Those are the cover story is that you are happy for you to believe. I think it is truly about getting a foot on the back door of china. My own opinion take it for what it is worth

No clue about the US special forces, but in Europe they don't seem to have a retention problem, it's more a burn out problem and while a lot then go into private security (aka body guards for Arabs and Russians or training body guards in boot camps) there seems to be an incredible high number of people with PTSD who just don't ever want to see weapons again. Can't blame them.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 6:29:49 PM

pyschosubmission

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This is a fascinating topic.
I'd just like to add though after talking to lots of different people who were involved in WWII in one way or another, it became clear to me that it was because of everyone working together that fascism was defeated.

Let me explain, my Granddad was an Irish Engineer and while he'd rarely talk about his experience he did tell one story about the Gurkhas. They had been told to take a position, one that involved climbing a cliff face and then facing a machine gun nest. Now the men at the front knew that as soon as they climbed up, they would be shot. But they did it anyway, because they knew it would give them men behind them a chance.

Same with a friend of mine, his father was a chef on board a ship. Often claimed his soup "won the war." He was working on a ship that would escort supply ships, really meaning they'd take the torpedo instead the supply vessel. But apparently ice would build up on the side of it and sometimes sink them, so the men had to break the ice off. He was the chef, he fed the men the warm soup to give them the energy to break the ice.

So yeah, it was hearing stories like that, that told me it was because of everyone's bravery regardless of nationality, is why we do not live in a fascist dictatorship

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 6:57:42 PM

DaddySatyr

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This is, absolutely, one of my favorite subjects!

I was probably taught the usual drivel that American children are taught about the war but, My grandparents on my mother's side were from Germany. My great uncle (Opa's older brother) fought for Germany in WWI. When WWII happened, he went to the US Army recruiting station (the family came to NY in '18) and volunteered.

Naturally, with the German accent, he was a "stand out" until he told his story and told them that he had been in the German military. Uncle Heinrich had medals from both sides in WWII.

Anyway, I would like to expound a bit on what Nine said; from all I've been told, had the UK, the US, or Russia chosen not to participate, Hitler might not have been defeated but, a bigger factor to his defeat was ... wait for it ... his ego/paranoia.

Hitler's tank corps, had it been under one commander in the field, could have probably held Africa, easily. His issue was he didn't want anyone knowing anywhere near as much as he did about troop deployment/movement. He trusted no one and so, his tanks were divided amongst several generals (Three, I believe) with one of them being a pilot with no ground military history.

Yes, as has been said; Hitler was a mass-murdering fuckhead (Thanks, Eddie) and most historians agree but, it turns out that the biggest factor in his defeat was probably his ego/paranoia.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 8:25:05 PM

kdsub

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Missouri USA here

What really wins war?...The best supplied soldiers. Without the US supplying Russia they lose... Without the US supplying European nations... they loose. So besides the soldiers, planes, tanks, and ships of the US arm forces the single greatest contributor to winning the Second World War was the manufacturing might of the United States.

Butch

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 8:27:20 PM

LadyHibiscus

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Exactly, a group effort.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 8:35:56 PM

OsideGirl

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I agree. And I'd like to hear more about the act of sabotage from Aswad. We were never taught that.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 8:54:34 PM

TheHeretic

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I was taught in high school that WWII was won by the three, "B's." In Europe, they were Russian blood, British brains, and American brawn, while the USA pulled all three, in the Pacific. The Allies got a nice mention, and the French were useless surrender monkeys. I had that teacher's new Vietnam class (he was a vet) on my schedule for the last term of my senior year, but he wound up teaching freshman health, instead.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/17/2012 9:10:07 PM

DaddySatyr

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Rich, I've studied the French language since I was in 5th grade and it has afforded me some opportunities to talk with some interesting French people.

The sense I get from most of them (and I will even get into the reason for their animous toward us, here) is that while the government of France was wishy-washy and just rolled over like a bitch in heat for the reich, the people - most particularly those who were involved in the resistance movement - were the polar opposite.

They fought with every means at their disposal. Some of the women (married or not) slept with German officers, specifically to try to get intelligence to help the allied war effort. The men frequently risked (and sacrificed) all just to carry little tidbit of information or to force German troops into places that were optimum for the allies.

The reason the French want to horse whip us is that to their mind, we were quite content to let them fight alone and exist under occupation until it seemed that England might actually fall. Then, in their eyes, was when we decided to finally do something (D-Day).

Of course, we were involved a little bit in the South Pacific and had already decided that we needed to not wage all-out assault on both fronts (Personally I think the Japanese attack was designed to bring exactly that response from us and to help keep us out of the war in Europe).

I am not saying I agree with the French people hating us but, after listening to a few of them that were there, I understand why they feel like they do.

When I tell my "French Surrender" jokes, I do it in a ribbing-a-sibling kind of way because the German occupation of France was no picnic and I think any fair appraisal of that time would tell us that the resitance movement was key in the success of D-Day and therefore - by extension - the liberation of Europe.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 1:38:51 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

the single greatest contributor to winning the Second World War was the manufacturing might of the United States.

That manufacturing might was on the other side of a lot of water. Which is why we provided the shipping might that was needed to get the job done. This doesn't invalidate the US manufacturing, but it does illustrate that the interdependence of factors makes it a silly proposition to point out a single party that made the greatest contribution.

If we had let Germany have the world stockpile of heavy water (we hid that) and the only production scale manufacturing plant for it (we sabotaged that), the nuclear bomb would quite possibly have been theirs a number of years before the US was ready. That would have levelled the manufacturing might in short order. It still doesn't make the greatest contribution. It's just another piece in the puzzle.

None of the parties could have done it alone, and the single greatest contribution was that Hitler was messing things up badly.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 1:45:51 AM

littlewonder

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quote:

We were taught that the French would be speaking German now, if it weren't for the US and UK.

Yeah, this is what I was taught and can even remember my teacher saying that to the class.

Now my daughter thankfully had a pretty good teachers plus she used to read a lot so she learned that both sides had faults and that it was an international co-operation.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 2:02:03 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

I agree. And I'd like to hear more about the act of sabotage from Aswad. We were never taught that.

A handful of guys airdropped in, virtually lived off moss while making their way through waist deep snows in the mountains, then blew up the world's only production scale heavy water plant in Telemark, Norway. The director of the plant had the foresight to remove the stockpile before the Germans seized it, as well. Without heavy water, Germany could not produce an atomic bomb. That's not to say it would have been trivial with heavy water, but I don't think anyone here doubts German engineering, even with Hitler at the helm.

For a gentle introduction with an interesting attempt at retracing their steps to get an impression of the difficulties, you could check out this video (link to first part).

There's other programmes and books about it, for more details.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 2:59:25 AM

PeonForHer

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FR

I mentioned The Heroes of Telemark earlier. Folks, come on! You've never seen Kirk Douglas beating back the Germans? A classic.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 3:08:08 AM

MariaB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Rich, I've studied the French language since I was in 5th grade and it has afforded me some opportunities to talk with some interesting French people.

The sense I get from most of them (and I will even get into the reason for their animous toward us, here) is that while the government of France was wishy-washy and just rolled over like a bitch in heat for the reich, the people - most particularly those who were involved in the resistance movement - were the polar opposite.

They fought with every means at their disposal. Some of the women (married or not) slept with German officers, specifically to try to get intelligence to help the allied war effort. The men frequently risked (and sacrificed) all just to carry little tidbit of information or to force German troops into places that were optimum for the allies.

The reason the French want to horse whip us is that to their mind, we were quite content to let them fight alone and exist under occupation until it seemed that England might actually fall. Then, in their eyes, was when we decided to finally do something (D-Day).

Of course, we were involved a little bit in the South Pacific and had already decided that we needed to not wage all-out assault on both fronts (Personally I think the Japanese attack was designed to bring exactly that response from us and to help keep us out of the war in Europe).

I am not saying I agree with the French people hating us but, after listening to a few of them that were there, I understand why they feel like they do.

When I tell my "French Surrender" jokes, I do it in a ribbing-a-sibling kind of way because the German occupation of France was no picnic and I think any fair appraisal of that time would tell us that the resitance movement was key in the success of D-Day and therefore - by extension - the liberation of Europe.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

The French Resistance (meaning the armed fighters) was actually very small. The French people worked as a community and it was that strength that was a resistance in itself. The French people were very brave when it came to harboring Jewish people.

Certain parts of France show animosity towards the British or Americans because we literally bombed and destroyed their town or city. We may of warned them to get out, that we were coming in to destroy the German infrastructure that had been put in place but communication back then is not what it is today. Too many French were killed by friendly fire.
Other towns and cities love the English or Americans and couldn't be more welcoming and so it very much depends on what town or city you visit to how you will be received.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 3:47:44 AM

areallivehuman

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FR

Just for grins I searched "WWII casualties", the figures are from Wikipedia, so take them for what they're worth, they seem fairly in line to me however. These figure represent military and POW casualties, and I've done a bit of rounding.

USSR 8-10 million

Germany 5.5 million

Japan 2 million

USA 477,000

UK 384,000

France 220,000

Canada 45,000

Australia 40,000

I don't rightly remember what I was taught in school, but I did a lot of reading on the subject when I was younger. In my opinion, Europe would not have been liberated were it not for the US led invasion. And the invasion would not have been sucsessful had Russia not broken the back of the German Army.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 4:20:41 AM

Ninebelowzero

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Interestingly (if you are a history geek like me) this bbears out something I have been reading about in different books & articles.

That the Allied Generals who had served in WW1 suffered from a reluctance to commit man power into huge set peice bhattles in case it resulted in the wholesale slaughter they had experienced before.

The exception to this was Patton who hadn't served in the trenches & as a result saw no reason not to commit. Of course as a cavalry commander he was the best the Allies had & that's probably why.

quote:

ORIGINAL: areallivehuman

FR

Just for grins I searched "WWII casualties", the figures are from Wikipedia, so take them for what they're worth, they seem fairly in line to me however. These figure represent military and POW casualties, and I've done a bit of rounding.

USSR 8-10 million

Germany 5.5 million

Japan 2 million

USA 477,000

UK 384,000

France 220,000

Canada 45,000

Australia 40,000

I don't rightly remember what I was taught in school, but I did a lot of reading on the subject when I was younger. In my opinion, Europe would not have been liberated were it not for the US led invasion. And the invasion would not have been sucsessful had Russia not broken the back of the German Army.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 6:40:53 AM

kdsub

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quote:

Which is why we provided the shipping might that was needed to get the job done

The US provided or produced shipping that could haul tonnage equal to twice the combined TOTAL of the rest of the allied forces.

Butch

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 6:42:58 AM

punisher440

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FR

I agree with most of what has been mentioned in previous posts.The Russians bled Germany out on the Eastern Front with some help of U.S. materials and the use of penal battalions in many cases[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtrafbat].Very few know or care to realize what Stalin did to his own countrymen.This was not something taught in our school books.

A mixture of U.S.,Great Britain,Canadian and some Free French,Polish and others handled Germany in the west.But in the Pacific,the U.S. bore the brunt of the fighting.Iwill admit it was to our advantage that there vast oceans separating the U.S. mainland from air and land attack and our factories were safe to build vast quantities of war material.

In the end,Hitler's incompetence cost Germany dearly.If he had finished off Great Britain before attacking Russia,the war would have taken a lot longer to end.If Germany had went ahead and finshed off the R.A.F. first and then started attacking cities,Germany would have had a very good chance of invading Great Britain.Remember much of Britain's much needed war material was left on Dunkirk's beaches during the retreat.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dunkirk] "The loss of materiel on the beaches was huge. The British Army left enough equipment behind to equip about eight to ten divisions. Left behind in France were, among huge supplies of ammunition, 880 field guns, 310 guns of large calibre, some 500 anti-aircraft guns, about 850 anti-tanks guns, 11,000 machine guns, nearly 700 tanks, 20,000 motorcycles and 45,000 motor cars and lorries.[44] Army equipment available at home was only just sufficient to equip two divisions. The British Army needed months to re-supply properly and some planned introductions of new equipment were halted while industrial resources concentrated on making good the losses." So if Germany had done a few things differently,the war would have been a lot longer and more deadly.

But if the French think they won the war,they are sadly mistaken and very wrong.It was the Big 3,Russia,Great Britain and the U.S.A. that bore the brunt of carrying out the war with help from Canada,Australia,China,India and some Free French,Poles and others.

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