Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Wind Farm Fail


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Wind Farm Fail Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/18/2012 5:11:09 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Sounds as though youve adopted the Obama plan before we even had a chance to

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Except its been shown household bills in the UK will rocket, in times of cutbacks and austerity.



_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/18/2012 5:33:24 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		We were way ahead of Obama and already have the worlds largest offshore windfarm generating over 350 MW.

The one I mentioned will generate double that, with one on the table capable of generating 7,000 MW.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/18/2012 6:21:18 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		That's your idea of, "large scale," Muse?  Really?

I don't suppose you'd care to offer us a reliable source for that "pays for itself in six months," claim?  I hear a lot of alternate energy pitches and claims, and that's one I have never heard before.  Now I know plenty of people with personal solar systems, where the electric bill savings are more or less making the payments from go, but again, I've never heard a claim that a wind turbine will be pure profit in six months.  Ever.

Below is a pic I snapped today, of the parking lot at our local community college.  This is a damn smart way to do it.






Attachment (1)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/18/2012 6:43:51 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Tell us again about your utility bills rocketing "in times of cutbacks and austerity"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

We were way ahead of Obama and already have the worlds largest offshore windfarm generating over 350 MW.

The one I mentioned will generate double that, with one on the table capable of generating 7,000 MW.



_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/18/2012 8:21:25 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Except its been shown household bills in the UK will rocket, in times of cutbacks and austerity.

Not knowing the situation there, I can't say, but it sounds to me like there is a policy glitch somewhere. If anything, having plenty of alternate energy would tend to even out utility fluctuations. My guess is that your utility bills are being used to subsidize the general budget, which is a whole 'nother story.


Sounds that way to me too. They're charging the upfront expense to the consumers.

(in reply to DaNewAgeViking)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/18/2012 8:29:48 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		What is the point of having a discussion with you?

What if someone drove into one? What if they're the wrong color? OK, you're pissed you have to drive by windmills spoiling your view of the desert dirt, so wind power sucks, everywhere and always. How insightful of you.

Sorry I didn't go rent an airplane and take pictures of all the windmills along all the ridges. Sorry here we have enough sense not to put 1000 windmills in a plot--first, we don't need that many, and second, it would be damn ugly.

And all you have is "that's large scale"? Go away. Get a job. And a clue.

Solar is much more feasible in California than it is here. That's why you do it more there. Wind power is very feasible here, both commercially and for homeowners (though fewer people do it, because there's an upfront cost of around $15,000, and the home ones are in fact very noisy).

Nonetheless, the ROI is excellent. For commercial application, it's quick, given the large size. Incidentally, that's especially good, because they're only rated to last 15-20 years.
http://www.eoearth.org/article/Energy_return_on_investment_%28EROI%29,_economic_feasibility_and_carbon_intensity_of_a_hypothetical_Lake_Ontario_wind_farm

Home ones take 5 years to break even. But after that, you just cash checks from the electric company.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

That's your idea of, "large scale," Muse?  Really?

I don't suppose you'd care to offer us a reliable source for that "pays for itself in six months," claim?  I hear a lot of alternate energy pitches and claims, and that's one I have never heard before.  Now I know plenty of people with personal solar systems, where the electric bill savings are more or less making the payments from go, but again, I've never heard a claim that a wind turbine will be pure profit in six months.  Ever.




(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/18/2012 8:57:03 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

What is the point of having a discussion with you?



I have come to understand that this is your way of saying that you got caught talking out your ass, and are hoping to bluff your way clear.  You claimed six months to payoff, and when asked to back the assertion, offer a link which ultimately says: (with my added emphasis)

quote:

Figures 5 and 6 show the net payments and revenue from the two Lake Ontario wind farm cases. For the GE turbine case, a payback period of between 17 and 24 years is calculated, with a net profit of between $38.6 and $83.1 million over the 30-year lifetime. Again, this range is dependent on the PTC. For the Vestas turbine case, the payback time is between 15 and 22 years, with a net profit of between $56 and $103.6 million.


And that payoff is being calculated if the farms go in while the government subsidies are still in effect.

I call bullshit, Muse, and if you want to talk about erecting scaffolding over irrigation channels that run next to roads, then road safety damn well becomes a legitimate issue.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/18/2012 9:11:17 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Back at you.

quote:

Table 3 provides a breakdown of the predicted energy requirements of the GE 1.5 MW and Vestas 1.65 MW turbines using the values from the Wind Power Note and Elsam studies. In relation to their expected lifetime power production, an EROI of between 28.3 and 36.7 is calculated for the GE turbine and between 30.5 and 39.6 for the Vestas turbine. The average energy requirement is about 4.22 million kWh for the GE turbine and 4.64 million kWh for the Vestas turbine. The energy payback period for both turbines is less than one year.


THIS plan, however, is for an offshore proposal in Lake Ontario. That's significantly more involved than on land.

quote:

Electricity from the farm would be sold on the NYS wholesale competitive electricity market at a price of about 5.8 ¢/kWh. Based on the expected generation from the GE and Vestas turbines, this corresponds to a gross annual revenue of about $13 million for the GE farm and $13.9 million for the Vestas farm.
.

quote:

Figures 5 and 6 show the net payments and revenue from the two Lake Ontario wind farm cases. For the GE turbine case, a payback period of between 17 and 24 years is calculated, with a net profit of between $38.6 and $83.1 million over the 30-year lifetime. Again, this range is dependent on the PTC. For the Vestas turbine case, the payback time is between 15 and 22 years, with a net profit of between $56 and $103.6 million.

Two sets of figures there, and two lines on the graph. One is the payments made over time. That's what you high-lighted. The other is the profits, which you're confusing with the payments scheduled.

And that's net profits. There's is maintenance involved. And again, this is for an offshore farm proposed, not a land farm.

Here, it's a $13 million annual return on a $200 million dollar investment. That's the private firm's gross profit--6.5% annually, for an offshore farm.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/18/2012 9:14:56 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/18/2012 9:25:17 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Do you know what an "energy payback period" is, Muse?  That's how long it takes for the machine to generate as much power as was required to manufacture, transport, and install, the fucker.  It has nothing to do with paying off the bill for all of that. 

12 years is the shortest time I have ever heard claimed for a wind farm to theoretically earn back the initial investment, and that is calculated with heavy subsidies.  If I drive up the old road into the mountains, there are farms up there that have been going 25+ years, are never going to break even, and barely make enough to cover the maintenance costs.  They just keep them turning for the tax write-offs.

Edit to add a glossary link.
http://www.solarserver.com/knowledge/lexicon/e/energy-payback-period.html

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 8/18/2012 9:36:35 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/18/2012 10:32:19 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Sanity, I do believe you titled this thread almost prophetically well. 

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/18/2012 10:47:29 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I don't know, Rich. I'm not staying up researching it, and the proposed Ontario one is the only thing that came up quickly.

Frankly, I don't think 15-20 years is a bad turn around for a project like this. But if it has "wind" in it, you'll hate it.

If so, interesting that the small home ones pay for themselves in only five years and then produce income. Does it seem logical to you that production on a larger scale would be less productive? I mean, they could put up 13,000 small ones instead of 130 big ones if that were true.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/18/2012 10:52:05 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/18/2012 11:21:23 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I don't know, Rich. I'm not staying up researching it



Well, as somebody who often needs to leave things dangling, to have a certain door unlocked on time, I can't fault that.

Judging from what you've been posting on alternative energy lately, I'm thinking maybe you should do some research, across the subject, when the opportunity presents itself.  The Australian proposal you found so compelling is based on a Spanish program, which is based on capturing the energy of dust devils.  It's a nifty idea.  Had you understood that, and understood how the forces in play work, my characterization of it as a contained tornado (which would be a hella good power source, if we got it just right, btw) might have sparked a chuckle, instead of the response you provided.

Not knowing the difference between energy payback, and the money payback?  Yeah.  Research, and expand your base of sources.  There seem to be too many sales brochures in the mix.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 2:51:01 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Tell us again about your utility bills rocketing "in times of cutbacks and austerity"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

We were way ahead of Obama and already have the worlds largest offshore windfarm generating over 350 MW.

The one I mentioned will generate double that, with one on the table capable of generating 7,000 MW.





Whys that, didnt you understand it the first time ?

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 3:03:05 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Sounds that way to me too. They're charging the upfront expense to the consumers.


Correct, but even those using solar panels on roofs wont see a payoff for ten years. Home owners were intially promised a decent price on any power not consummed and fed back into the national grid. That was a sop to help with insulation costs which never came to fruition since the amount promised as a subsidy has been drastically reduced.

Like I said on another thread on the topic. Its a great idea but currently not cost effective. Although I do wonder of those spouting to invade Iran will be so happy when oil costs spiral as they did in `73. If that does happen then wind farms may become a more viable alternative.

All of our three main parties seem hell bent on meeting absurd emission targets. Mostly to sway the green vote in my view, I think that plan will backfire due to rising fuel costs. Another fear in Europe was caused by Russia playing politics with trans European gas (Not gasoline) pipelines a year or two back.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 3:10:25 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Except its been shown household bills in the UK will rocket, in times of cutbacks and austerity.

Not knowing the situation there, I can't say, but it sounds to me like there is a policy glitch somewhere. If anything, having plenty of alternate energy would tend to even out utility fluctuations. My guess is that your utility bills are being used to subsidize the general budget, which is a whole 'nother story.




If you mean a general government budget you are partly correct. Fuel is subject to vat, which goes back to the government purse

If you are talking about paying for future investment by the utility companies as mentioned in my earlier post, you are right. There is very little downside to companies jumping on the green bandwagon.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 3:59:41 AM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline 		Howls about subsidies are typical noises from (Marx's term) running dogs for capitalist war mongers. Let Exxon get into wind energy and we'll really see some subsidies! Something like the sweetheart treatment Big Oil currently gets on investment and depletion allowances. Yell about the subsidies Big Oil has lobbied into existence for almost a century as loud and maybe sane, informed people will start to listen.
Current wind energy is far from a mature technology. Part of the fix is probably vertical axis turbines with lower manufacturing and siting costs and much lower maintenance and a fraction of the required control mechanisms as vertical axis is insensitive to wind direction and far simpler to control from over speeding with wind gusts. The current issue with most sustainable (green) energy systems is storage during low demand/high production, which is uncontrollable for most natural energy conversion methods. Solar is the most obvious.
Battery technology is moving forward faster than either wind turbine development or solar panel advances. Costs need to drop for whole storage systems by about an order of magnitude. It's in sight.
Local energy production is required until affordable, practical super conductivity takes the inefficiencies out of long distance power lines. If ever. We can't really afford crossing multiple states with power lines at current energy prices when it can cost far too significant a proportion of the energy. Expert predictions are for far more local and scalable energy systems of a far greater number of methods and technologies as each area has it's particular individual set of circumstances. Great Britain is looking strongly to wind as nowhere is that far from windy ocean. Solar is less competitive that far North than in the continental US.
MOST startup technologies require support and subsidy till they mature, or the dominant current technology has to be forced to be priced realistically for it's ultimate cleanup and irremediable environmental damage. $20/gal gas anyone? The people who know the numbers the best all claim we are 50 years late on subsidizing sustainable energy technology to bring it to maturity and more than a few think it is too late now to make the needed difference. That would have actually made more sense anyway as future materials needs will make geologic crude oil far more valuable as raw resource material for industry. Much current high risk production like deep water oil drilling would be uneconomic if sustainable energy had been supported early enough for it to now be online and efficient. We'd be paying less to drive, and heat our homes and less damage would be happening in all aspects of energy use. But Big Oil saw no way to make as much money out of the developing technologies so lobbied to block it's progress.
Calls to mine Wyoming's coal is from people who have no intention of every trying to live in the counties the extraction would ruin for the foreseeable future. (That would be generations, at least, not yearly budget cycles) And likely damage the down stream watersheds permanently. Factor in the advances and expenses in coal technology required to keep the planet livable with it's use and solar and wind suddenly are the cheaper option. Realistic analysis is not the Harvard School of Business quarterly stock market rate of return. Which may be the key to capitalism eating our planet out from under us. It is the system cost versus benefits for it's expected life and all associated expenses. Nobody has any idea of How to remove geologically stored carbon from the atmosphere dumped in the name of jobs and corporate profit, much less any idea of what it will cost.
If there are future generations of literate humans who know the planet's history, our time will be cursed for it's short-sighted pursuit of profit and convenience and damning our descendants to living in the mess we left.



< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 8/19/2012 4:05:14 AM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 5:51:46 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		After doing a little research, I have discovered that the only subsidies that were provided the wind farms in Texas and a few other states were in the form of grants for initial construction.

As far as operation, no such government money is being paid to make them profitable.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to epiphiny43)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 6:03:37 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Correct. Nor for home use--there's some tax help on initial construction, state and federal in NY, but that's it.


(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 6:53:58 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Muse, did you read your link?  They cover the tax angle.  It's also referenced as the "PTC" in the little bit we've both quoted, about the the pay back period.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 7:19:46 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		That's a single proposed project, Rich.

Here, they built a couple windmills. Then they built a couple more. Then a dozen more. Then a couple dozen more . . .

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Wind Farm Fail Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.093