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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 7:58:09 AM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Muse, I understand that you love the idea of alternative energy.  That's fine.  I think a lot of it is pretty nifty myself, despite your claim that I "hate" wind power. 

Looking at it with the eyes of love doesn't negate the practicalities and limitations, though.  Powering homes is far from the whole story.  We also have to be able to power industry, and high-tech manufacturing takes a lot of juice.  If you clicked the glossary link I provided earlier, for instance, you'd have seen that it takes a solar panel 1 1/2 - 3 1/2 years to produce as much energy as it took to build and install the thing to begin with.  With an expected 20 year lifetime, it's going to work out to the good, but it gives an idea of just how much power a solar panel manufacturing plant is going to need.

The hills above the Mojave spaceport and manufacturing complex may be covered with thousand of windmills, we may cover hundreds of acres with photovoltaic panels, but they will never, and can never, be relied on as the sole power supply.  Why?  Here's one example.  The composite materials used in much of that manufacturing require a trip into an extremely precise industrial oven.  They have to heat to a certain temperature within a very short time, maintain precisely that temperature for the curing, and then be cooled in a perfectly controlled fashion.  Now we could build a whole system of storage batteries to run an uninterruptible power supply, so the clouds and unpredictable wind conditions of an afternoon thunderstorm don't spoil the batch, but if you look at the realities of battery ecology, that's not a very "green" approach.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 8/19/2012 7:59:05 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 8:04:43 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		Sigh. And I get that you're going to oppose this on prejudice 'til your last breath.

No one, including me, is saying we should get all our power from wind. And no power source is without its drawbacks. Further, clearly to me, if not to you, different technologies are best in different parts of the nation (and world).

However--a combination of wind, water, and solar can and should drive the bulk of our power--not tomorrow, but increasingly. Even better, we should start designing (like passive solar heating and cooling, which costs literally nothing after it's built) with energy use in mind.

I get that's a difficult message in a country that prides itself on trucks the size of studio apartments financed with seven year loans to drive to the post office at 20 mpg.

Or that can say the words "clean coal" and not break out in peals of laughter.

In NY, solar isn't that great a solution. No batteries. Wind power goes directly to the power grid. No batteries. So does hydroelectric. No batteries.

In fact, I've never seen ANY wind estimate suggesting anything higher than 30%, and 20% is more common. That wind power comes in spurts, and without a larger grid, we can't use much more than that. Offshore projects offer more help in this area, because the winds are more steady. And they can be closer to the metropolitan areas they serve, rather than transmitting the power from the MidWest.

But guess what. 20% of our electric power is a lot.

And no evil batteries.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/19/2012 8:10:20 AM >

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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 8:49:32 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Any energy has to be competitively priced too, because the industry you mention competes with China (primarily) which uses ever increasing massive amounts of the dirtiest cheapest most abundant energy sources there are

Not that I believe we should be just like them but we cant be so namby-pamby that we allow China to keep all our jobs and continue to force us into utter destitution, which seems to be the lefts dream

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Muse, I understand that you love the idea of alternative energy.  That's fine.  I think a lot of it is pretty nifty myself, despite your claim that I "hate" wind power. 

Looking at it with the eyes of love doesn't negate the practicalities and limitations, though.  Powering homes is far from the whole story.  We also have to be able to power industry, and high-tech manufacturing takes a lot of juice.  If you clicked the glossary link I provided earlier, for instance, you'd have seen that it takes a solar panel 1 1/2 - 3 1/2 years to produce as much energy as it took to build and install the thing to begin with.  With an expected 20 year lifetime, it's going to work out to the good, but it gives an idea of just how much power a solar panel manufacturing plant is going to need.

The hills above the Mojave spaceport and manufacturing complex may be covered with thousand of windmills, we may cover hundreds of acres with photovoltaic panels, but they will never, and can never, be relied on as the sole power supply.  Why?  Here's one example.  The composite materials used in much of that manufacturing require a trip into an extremely precise industrial oven.  They have to heat to a certain temperature within a very short time, maintain precisely that temperature for the curing, and then be cooled in a perfectly controlled fashion.  Now we could build a whole system of storage batteries to run an uninterruptible power supply, so the clouds and unpredictable wind conditions of an afternoon thunderstorm don't spoil the batch, but if you look at the realities of battery ecology, that's not a very "green" approach.



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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 8:55:54 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		How's that Magic Money working out for ya? Created enough jobs? Enjoying the surplus revenue?

More tax cuts! More military spending! More pollution! This is AMERICA!!!!!!




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/19/2012 8:56:25 AM >

(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 9:01:38 AM   
Sanity


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Obama is borrowing it hand over fist from coal burning China, enslaving our children and grand children to trillions in new debt

Nothing too magical about that

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

How's that Magic Money working out for ya? Created enough jobs? Enjoying the surplus revenue?

More tax cuts! More military spending! More pollution! This is AMERICA!!!!!!






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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 9:18:08 AM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Yep. Bush Lite is not a great solution, though constrained by a slow recovery.

Bush on Steroids, doubling down on what created the problem, is sheer insanity.

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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 9:26:52 AM   
Sanity


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Funny you should write that because coincidentally, Obama (who was involved in creating and furthering the initial housing bubble that brought us this mess) is pushing for more of what created the problem

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yep. Bush Lite is not a great solution, though constrained by a slow recovery.

Bush on Steroids, doubling down on what created the problem, is sheer insanity.



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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 9:33:09 AM   
PowerXXXchange


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


The hills above the Mojave spaceport and manufacturing complex may be covered with thousand of windmills, we may cover hundreds of acres with photovoltaic panels, but they will never, and can never, be relied on as the sole power supply.  Why?  Here's one example.  The composite materials used in much of that manufacturing require a trip into an extremely precise industrial oven.  They have to heat to a certain temperature within a very short time, maintain precisely that temperature for the curing, and then be cooled in a perfectly controlled fashion. 


As a technologist who earns his living designing materials for composite wind blades, I would like to comment. There are a number of thermal processes involved in blade manufacturing, and those that I have seen here and in Europe all use garden variety temperature controllers. I typically see blades being cured with +/- 5 deg tolerances at modest temperatures, using ovens not much different than those that a car body goes through to dry paint. If you had ever entered a wind blade factory, I don't think you would say "extremely precise."

The fact is that the time and temperature requirements for infusing, curing, post curing, and paint drying add very little to the cost of a wind blade. The major cost is embedded in the raw materials, which account for more than 50% of the finished blade cost. The single largest energy cost embedded upstream into the BOM is the cost to melt the sand to make the glass fiber.

Perhaps what you meant to reference the embodied energy ratio, the number of months it takes a utility scale wind turbine to generate the same energy required to make the turbine materials, assemble it and transport it to the site. Typical numbers are 6-8 months, for a turbine that has a design min. life of 20 years and a practical life of ~ 30-35 years.

By contrast, the NG or coal plant next door NEVER returns as much energy as was required to build and operate it. It starts with a deficit, and then runs at less than 100% efficiency, digging a deeper deficit hole for its entire lifetime, consuming high energy density petroleum fuels.

Regards,

PxC

The above point of view of course ignores the cost to use military force to maintain a petroleum supply. Could you please inform me how much this subsidy has cost us in $$ and lives over the last 20 years? And while you are at it, what is the dollar cost of those lives, military and civilian?



< Message edited by PowerXXXchange -- 8/19/2012 10:27:43 AM >

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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 9:38:10 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Power,

Thanks for the inside perspective!


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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 9:59:59 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks, PxC, but the specific manufacturing I meant was the high end composites used to build spaceships (that sounds so damn sci-fi nerdy, but here we are, doing exactly that).  You'll just have to forgive me if I take the words of an aerospace engineer who's been working with the stuff for decades, and an electrician who made big bucks to sit and read the newspaper when the ovens were running, as the sources I find reliable on how that grade of material is made.

Energy payback has come up, as there was a bit of confusion earlier when someone thought that was when the project had paid for itself.

Glad to have you in the discussion. 


(in reply to PowerXXXchange)
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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 10:11:14 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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I think I see the problem

Rich was posting about photovoltaic panels and apparently PowerXXXchange misunderstood, and thought Rich was writing about windmill blades

Still, welcome to the discussion PowerXXXchange

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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 10:26:00 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Below is a pic I snapped today, of the parking lot at our local community college.  This is a damn smart way to do it.





I was trained in photography and emphasized on industrial, commercial and architectural. I find the blend of modern design engineering with the aesthetic fascinating. The mills about the countryside in that pic make for a challenge photographically. Done right such is not displeasing to the eye. The necessary trick is doing it without raising costs.

I wouldn't say the parking lot is terribly pleasing to the eye, but neither is Wal-Mart.


< Message edited by Yachtie -- 8/19/2012 10:31:52 AM >

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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 10:33:06 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Below is a pic I snapped today, of the parking lot at our local community college.  This is a damn smart way to do it.





I was trained in photography and emphasized on industrial, commercial and architectural. I find the blend of modern design engineering with the aesthetic fascinating. The mills about the countryside in that pic make for a challenge photographically. Done right such is not displeasing to the eye. The necessary trick is doing it without raising costs.

I wouldn't say the parking lot is terribly pleasing to the eye, but neither is Wal-Mart parking.




_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 10:36:50 AM   
PowerXXXchange


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Joined: 9/26/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Thanks, PxC, but the specific manufacturing I meant was the high end composites used to build spaceships (that sounds so damn sci-fi nerdy, but here we are, doing exactly that).  You'll just have to forgive me if I take the words of an aerospace engineer who's been working with the stuff for decades, and an electrician who made big bucks to sit and read the newspaper when the ovens were running, as the sources I find reliable on how that grade of material is made.

Energy payback has come up, as there was a bit of confusion earlier when someone thought that was when the project had paid for itself.

Glad to have you in the discussion. 




Talking spaceships, eh? Not Wind Farm Fail"? Not "thousands of windmills" and 'hundreds of acres with photovoltaic panels'?. If you say so... I'll let you be the space expert, Captain.

PxC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_material

Is your issue aerospace composites, or the silicon refining step used in photovoltaics, really? We're also making some filmic materials for photovoltaic panels, and I don't see composite materials used in that application. What am I missing?

< Message edited by PowerXXXchange -- 8/19/2012 10:58:06 AM >

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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 10:48:53 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


I think I see the problem

Rich was posting about photovoltaic panels and apparently PowerXXXchange misunderstood, and thought Rich was writing about windmill blades

Still, welcome to the discussion PowerXXXchange

How dare someone comment on windmill blade manufacture when the topic is Wind Farms.

Are you claiming that Rich was trying to derail the topic? If so, maybe you owe him an apology.

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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/19/2012 11:27:41 AM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		You don't have to call me, "Captain," PxC.  I'm not big on protocol. 

I'm not sure how you got where you seem to be on what I said though.  I'm talking about a specific area, where a specific sort of highly advanced materials are developed and produced, and how, despite the fact that the area in question is a hotbed of wind farms and solar power, what those pump into the grid alone cannot be completely relied on to serve the local industry.  What's hard?

Tell you what.  I'd like to know more about the airflow through high density wind farms, and how the disruptions from one mill impact the next one downwind.  Is that something you get into, in the line of work you claim to be in?

(in reply to PowerXXXchange)
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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/20/2012 4:00:56 PM   
PowerXXXchange


Posts: 58
Joined: 9/26/2006
Status: offline 		Okay, I understand your comment; or.. I think I do.

Most development scenereos call for ~20+% of the energy requirement to be met by wind. And those models have been well documented as successful in northern Europe. Up to that level, wind is very compatible with NG turbines. The wind provides fossil fuel conservation, and by reducing the demand for NG, serves to lower it's market price. Ng turbines are also an easy source to adjust to meet daily demand cycles.

The ideal mix is very dependent on geography. For example in the Azores the wind howls like the devil 24/7 so wind energy can be a greater part of the mix without needing so much backup and grid infrastructure.

The cost of turbines has dropped considerably in the last two years. I am hearing numbers like $1500/kw in 2010 vs $1000 today, in part due to redesigns with larger lighter blades. When this happen the same turbine can generate a usable power level at lower wind speeds, increasing the availability and reducing backup needs.

The guys at Sandia are making a big point now to study turbine interactions, both for land based and offshore wind farms. I am a composites materials guy, not an aero. But clearly when energy is extracted from moving air it slows down and all that extra air volume needs to go someplace.

Regards,

PxC

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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/20/2012 5:05:09 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Can someone who's a bit more familiar with the technology than I am answer a simple question for me, please?

What does 600 megawatts translate to for me? I could power my entire home (I play the electric guitar, too) for how long on 600 megawatts?

Thank you, in advance.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

It's a bit complicated but simply, a household circuit usually is rated for 120 volts at 15 amps which means a maximum draw of 1800 watts per circuit. If you have an electric stove or clothes dryer you also likely have a 3 phase circuit which can draw a lot more power. But it's pretty safe that unless your home is very large your max. draw off the grid is less than 20k watts. So a 600 MWatt farm, producing max power, could power at least 30,000 homes.

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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/21/2012 2:59:13 AM   
epiphiny43


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Status: offline 		The comments on China are wholly misinformed. China is currently the world leader in sustainable and renewable energy installation and development, both wind and solar, with more online sources than anyone else and a faster build rate for the foreseeable future. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China
China's solar situation is similar though a bit behind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China
China is also working hard on the various 'clean' alternative technologies for their huge sulfur loaded coal resources, from fluidized bed burning and exhaust cleaning to gaseous conversion to far less problematic gas state fuels, as are most tech nations. China just is ahead on scale and determination. We 'study', they are building. The US has a better tech base at present but a Congress that is scared silly their Big Oil stock and election contributions will taper off. China has the political will to move ahead to a most obvious future. Wall Street can't see past the next quarter?
I'm in FRP work and follow industry and aerospace advanced products. All the tech is available on a small shop scale and affordable equipment but the large precision thread placement machines for large parts. Temp controlled curing boxes are hacked by determined DIY builders every day. Vacuum/heat autoclave cures are done with junkyard equipment. Large CNC cutters for precision foam cores run in the price range of a nice car. If you want a B2 bomber or a wing pivot for a swing wing fighter, you'll need a few million here and a few more there. Which adds up. Windmill blades aren't in that league. Everyone builds to a market and a price but the Defense Industry on cost plus contracts.

NOBODY but it's opponents ever claimed wind should and can't replace oil. Renewable energy has to come from a multitude of sources fitting varying areas and needs. Enough small scale local energy sources connected with an 'intelligent' system and most of the large scale plants simply cease being a continuing issue. If every building is optimized for efficiency and available energy collection and on a net cost grid connection, the whole issue of large plants becomes quite digestible. New ideas on micro and vibrational energy collection threaten to create a whole new reality of energy use with power plants on the same scale as our devices that use the power, from hearing aids to home appliances.
Batteries are advancing fast but may already be obsolete with carbon tube and other tech nano-scale capacitors replacing chemical energy storage. Fully scalable, huge efficiency gains, no or less toxic materials and manufacturing, hopefully much longer service life and no power output limitations, they would make far more energy collection schemes practical and efficient. All this is the investments the scientific community has been calling for nearly two generations now. Largely blocked by special interest lobbying and the Shrub's belief, "There's Plenty of Oil." At $100/gal and rising fast?

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 8/21/2012 3:23:19 AM >

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RE: Wind Farm Fail - 8/21/2012 11:08:43 AM   
SilverMark


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Status: offline 		’ Iowa’s senior senator, Chuck Grassley, told reporters he didn’t believe Romney really opposed the extension, and he joined five other GOP lawmakers in voting for it in the Senate Finance Committee.”....I guess there is some on the Right side that think that the wind farms are pretty good ideas....

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