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Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 9:21:29 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		I settled back in my chair this morning, with a fresh cup of coffee at hand, and started reading a New York Times Magazine piece on President Obama's early work as a community organizer in Chicago.  Unfortunately, I couldn't get past how the author started off, and the picture he painted of the community in question, and for the whole rest of the piece, as it goes through a litany of poverty programs, I kept looking for that simple, yet huge, thing to be addressed.  It isn't.

You can read the article here 

He begins by describing a ride-along with a current community activist in a Chicago neighborhood, and comes quickly to this:

quote:

  
Gates pulled the car up in front of Jasmine’s house on Lafayette Avenue, and Jasmine ran in to fetch her brother, Damien, who was also enrolled in YAP. Their house looked small and battered. The metal gate guarding the front door was torn off its hinges, and there was a fist-size hole in the front window. Damien, a handsome 17-year-old, sauntered out to the car behind Jasmine, and the two of them piled in the back while Gates kept the car running for warmth.

“Man, it’s critical in our house,” Damien said with a little laugh.

“It’s cold!” Jasmine said. “You go in there, you think you still outside.”

Damien and Jasmine’s mother had been fighting a long, losing battle with the gas company. The previous summer, after she failed to pay the heating bill, the company shut off the gas line. Now there was no heat at all, winter had arrived in force and that hole in the living-room window let in a steady stream of frigid air all night long.


Ok, we'll assume the landlord is a scumbag who won't fix the window properly, but what the fuck?  If the hole in the window lets in a steady stream of frigid air all night long, COVER THE MOTHERFUCKING HOLE!  A couple pieces of scrap cardboard, duck tape, maybe a few plastic bags sandwiched in for insulation?  3 minutes?  The guy driving the car our intrepid reporter is riding in, is a full-time employee of an agency that is supposed to mentor young people, to help them develop the skills to move out of poverty, and they are all sitting in the car, talking about how cold it is in the house. 

It is right and proper, as I often say, that a nation such as ours should have a safety net, but dammit, if the programs can't help people see the simplest matters of helping themselves, we need a change of paradigm.

The author comes back around to the people he introduced at the beginning.  Two years later, Damien is getting a plaque, and there is a hole in his living room window, but it's summer, and not such a big deal.
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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 9:25:30 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Good grief. Why wouldn't the residents think of that? No wonder they can't pay the gas bills!

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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 9:50:08 AM   
erieangel


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Status: offline 		Clearly some people just aren't that smart. Maybe they figure it's the landlord's responsibility to repair the window. In many states and cities, it would be. But, I would have repaired the window myself after a few weeks and given the bill to the landlord.

Like I said, some people just aren't that bright.


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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 10:03:44 AM   
Sanity


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Its not even rocket science to replace a broken window, and it doesnt have to be expensive

Find a piece of scrap glass, buy a cutter for a few dollars (or borrow one), measure it using a bit of string if you have to, cut the glass to size using any kind of a handy straight edge. Carefully remove the old glass - in older windows there are glaze points to pull, maybe some old glazing to cut away... you might need some pliers and a utility knife. Then put the glass in and glaze it up just like the old glass

Glazing compound is cheap enough, and pawn shops carry inexpensive tools. Beats letting all your heat escape, and less expensive than letting all your heat escape (especially if your water pipes freeze and burst)

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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 11:52:37 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Maybe they figure it's the landlord's responsibility to repair the window.


Yes, Erie, I think that's pretty much exactly what is going on.  (Holy crap!  Did we just agree on something?)  And that is the problem.  They are seeing a direct, specific problem in their own lives, and immediate well being, and the assumption is that someone else must resolve it, and more, that if someone else doesn't, then they are just stuck. 

The single most important component involved in getting an individual out of poverty is the individual living in it.  It may be fun for some to mock the idea of pulling oneself up by the bootstraps, with a snark that you have to have boots first, but it doesn't alter the importance of self-reliance, and keeping your own eyes open to every opportunity and option that does come along.


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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 2:21:05 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		This country has spent trillions of dollars in the last 40 to 50 years trying to solve poverty. The number of people in poverty is growing and at one of the highest levels ever.. Throwing money at ignorant and lazy people doesn't seem to be the answer.  

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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 2:28:31 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The single most important component involved in getting an individual out of poverty is the individual living in it.  It may be fun for some to mock the idea of pulling oneself up by the bootstraps, with a snark that you have to have boots first, but it doesn't alter the importance of self-reliance, and keeping your own eyes open to every opportunity and option that does come along.

You may well be right, Rich. (That "may well" reflects an elderly editor's aversion to absolutes and superlatives.) That raises the interesting question of what shapes an individual's mindset and the actions that grow out of it. What seems to make some folks more self-reliant than others, and how does a society encourage that invaluable trait? I don't, I confess, have the answers, and I'm guessing they're not simple.

One story from my own past comes to mind. I was one of sixty graduates from an all-boys Catholic high school on Long Island. To the best of my memory, none of us went on to the ivy League. I'm not sure anyone even applied. Several guys were certainly smart enough, but that possibility simply wasn't part of our mental landscape. Folks focused primarily on Catholic colleges (largely in the Northeast) and schools in New York State. It wasn't till years later that it even occurred to me how constrained our worldviews had been on that point. That makes me wonder if the same thing happens in other segments of society. Do people simply not see possibilities that might occur to you and me?

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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 3:10:01 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

This country has spent trillions of dollars in the last 40 to 50 years trying to solve poverty. The number of people in poverty is growing and at one of the highest levels ever.

I'm having trouble nailing down historical poverty data, so I'd be grateful if you'd share your source for this. National statistics seem to go back only to 1959. I did find an interesting graph at Census.gov. If I'm reading it right (always a big if where anything mathematical is concerned), the poverty rate has dropped quite a bit from 1959. (The absolute number of people in poverty is rising, but that may reflect our growing population.)


quote:

Throwing money at ignorant and lazy people doesn't seem to be the answer.

Oh my. Poor people may indeed, as I noted earlier in the thread, be ignorant of opportunities that you and I take for granted, but it seems a bit of a stretch to assume, sight unseen, that they're all lazy.

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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 3:47:42 PM   
erieangel


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quote:

Do people simply not see possibilities that might occur to you and me?


I think right, dc. People often don't see what is right in front of them. And Rich's explanation about how "easy" it is to fix a broken window...well, what might seem easy and a matter of common sense to one person is sometimes an insurmountable obstacle to another. If it weren't for a nearby hardware store that fixes things like broken windows and screens, I'd be paying exorbitant amounts to have even the smallest repairs done--like broken windows. In fact, I did at one time--nearly $100 to have a pane of glass replaced by a contractor. Now, that same pane costs me (since I now go to the hardware store) only about $25. When I paid more, I neither drove nor lived near to this hardware store to take a window into them. And I was on SSI at the time, too, which hurt my budget a lot. A pane of glass had cost me nearly 1/7 of my monthly income. And that right there could explain some of it. Inexpensive, just like the thought process that goes into thinking how to do something, is relative. When one is thinking about paying the rent and putting food on the table, clothes on your back, an extra expense is sometimes not in the cards.

But like I said, I would have had the window fixed and given the landlord the paid receipt and taken it out of the rent. If the landlord felt it was my responsibility, I would have tried to work something out to repay him a little at a time--$5-$10 a month.




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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 4:15:38 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Breaking out of poverty starts with the individual living in poverty looking for a solution, or even a patch, not with sitting in a car, talking about how cold it is with that hole in the window. Frankly, I'm glad the author's guide to Roseland is losing his job. He's no fucking good at it.


I agree, Rich, looking for a solution by the person in the midst of poverty would be the logical first step. And the dumb ass mentor should have gotten out of his car and put some cardboard over the window at the least. But the central theme of the article was the qualitatively different challenge presented by areas of "extreme poverty." The description of Roseland is pretty sobering and shocking. It is a war zone, pure and simple. Seems they are dealing with a whole different set of circumstances here, so while the window patch makes sense it is trivial, I think, to the inability for the individual to look for a solution, because there is none at hand. These neighborhoods have become isolated. No jobs. No transportation to get to the jobs. No fathers. Schools unable to provide real world goals and tools. A curriculum of math and science does not seem a realistic fit in the Roseland condition. That was quite an amazing article. Thanks for posting it.

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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 4:28:48 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
That raises the interesting question of what shapes an individual's mindset and the actions that grow out of it. What seems to make some folks more self-reliant than others, and how does a society encourage that invaluable trait? I don't, I confess, have the answers, and I'm guessing they're not simple.


I don't have any solid answers either, DC.  One thing I usually harp on a bit is the welfare rule that if a dependent in the home should get a part-time job while still in school, any money they earn is added right in to the household income, and pulled right back out of the benefits.  It's the most counterproductive rule I know of, and actively discourages these kids from developing the attitudes and work habits they need to break the cycle of dependency. 

I think the job training programs need to be much more focused on developing or maintaining the real world habits, of a real world workplace.  I'd like to see the experimental programs that come along filled competitively, rather than by lottery, and cancel every self-esteem building exercise.  The problem for too many poverty program participants isn't that they lack the self-esteem to believe they can do better, but that they have far more self-esteem than they have a reasonable foundation for, and believe that what they want, should just be handed over as no-strings entitlement.

Self-reliance seems to toss us into the nature/nurture quagmire.  I think it can be taught, to a certain degree, even it takes the cruel taskmasters of cold and hunger, but some people take to it more easily than others.  Yet here we have the family in question, with Chicago cold to motivate and teach, and nobody can even tape a torn-to-size pizza box over the hole, including the guy getting a taxpayer salary to mentor those kids out of the cycle.


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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 4:30:28 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

This country has spent trillions of dollars in the last 40 to 50 years trying to solve poverty. The number of people in poverty is growing and at one of the highest levels ever.. Throwing money at ignorant and lazy people doesn't seem to be the answer.  


You apparently did not read the article but are speaking from your own preconceived notions. The article makes clear that there are two factors contributing to the "growth" you imagine.
1. the recent housing and financial meltdown
2. there has been a change in the distribution of aid:

"In 1984, federal aid to poor families was progressive, in the literal sense of the term — the poorest families got the most help. Single-parent families below 50 percent of the poverty line received, on average, $1,231 (in current dollars) per month from the federal government. Those in what could be considered shallow poverty, between 50 and 100 percent of the poverty line, received $448. But over the following 20 years, that situation was reversed. Government aid to families in deep poverty fell by 38 percent on average, while aid to families in shallow poverty increased by 86 percent. By 2004, the government was actually giving more, each month, to families in shallow poverty than to families in deep poverty."


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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 4:36:09 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
That was quite an amazing article. Thanks for posting it.


You're welcome. 

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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 4:44:57 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

And Rich's explanation about how "easy" it is to fix a broken window...well, what might seem easy and a matter of common sense to one person is sometimes an insurmountable obstacle to another.


Just for the record, Erie, I just said, "cover the ... hole."  Any sort of proper handyman/woman fix was raised by others. 

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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 4:56:37 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		This isnt a poverty issue... its both an intelligence one.. and a motivational one.

Intelligence.. simple... tape.. window plastic... hell.. even a couple of trashbags.. and its covered.. good enough for a few days at least.

Motivational... 16 and 17.... Gates... 30.... simply laziness. Thats not poverty driven... look around you. The only difference between poor and not poor is.. the not poor can call for a window repair. Few would do it themselves. Thats just my opinion. The generations behind us are getting lazier.

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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 4:58:51 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I don't have any solid answers either, DC.  One thing I usually harp on a bit is the welfare rule that if a dependent in the home should get a part-time job while still in school, any money they earn is added right in to the household income, and pulled right back out of the benefits.  It's the most counterproductive rule I know of, and actively discourages these kids from developing the attitudes and work habits they need to break the cycle of dependency. 

I think the job training programs need to be much more focused on developing or maintaining the real world habits, of a real world workplace.  I'd like to see the experimental programs that come along filled competitively, rather than by lottery, and cancel every self-esteem building exercise.  The problem for too many poverty program participants isn't that they lack the self-esteem to believe they can do better, but that they have far more self-esteem than they have a reasonable foundation for, and believe that what they want, should just be handed over as no-strings entitlement.

Those sound like great ideas, Rich. Thanks!


quote:

Self-reliance seems to toss us into the nature/nurture quagmire.  I think it can be taught, to a certain degree, even it takes the cruel taskmasters of cold and hunger, but some people take to it more easily than others.  Yet here we have the family in question, with Chicago cold to motivate and teach, and nobody can even tape a torn-to-size pizza box over the hole, including the guy getting a taxpayer salary to mentor those kids out of the cycle.

The hole in the window is truly mind-blowing.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 5:06:15 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

I think the job training programs need to be much more focused on developing or maintaining the real world habits, of a real world workplace. I'd like to see the experimental programs that come along filled competitively, rather than by lottery, and cancel every self-esteem building exercise. The problem for too many poverty program participants isn't that they lack the self-esteem to believe they can do better, but that they have far more self-esteem than they have a reasonable foundation for, and believe that what they want, should just be handed over as no-strings entitlement.


Most urban children I taught had no lack of self-esteem that was apparent. A few maybe but not the majority. They had a lot of fiercely protected pride.

The problem with giving them real world work habits is that there seems to be little real world work opportunities available due to outsourcing and robot/micro chip technologies. Would you agree that is a problem? What becomes of the Gingrich junior janitors after they graduate?

I would not short change urban kids on self-reliance. It may be that they have it but it is mis-directed into guns, gangs and dope dealing. Maybe.

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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 5:10:40 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
What becomes of the Gingrich junior janitors after they graduate?


That's such a good question, Vince, that I'm going to completely ignore the Gingrich shot, when I get back to it.   

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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 5:23:13 PM   
DaddySatyr


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Status: offline 		20-30 years ago, my "answer" would have been that people need to stop being lazy but, that isn't the case these days.

In the current economic climate where people that are working 15 years at the same job are being let go so that the company can ship their job over-seas and increase their profit margin, we can't say that laziness is - by default - the only answer. That would be ludicrous.

Unfortunately, if we consider this as the only problem in our society (it ain't), the only answer is to "throw money at it". I'm talking a WPA-type situation; not more "free money". Let's face it, though, we're already stretched to the point of breaking.

Rich makes some good points, though, that we have some people that look at welfare as "the family business" and some of them have been in business for the fourth generation. That mindset needs to be eradicated.

For far too many people welfare has become a way of life instead of a safety net. I am not saying I don't feel bad for this family but is this the first time (generationally) that they have been in dire straits or is this an on-going condition?

The patching of the window (or the non-patching, in this case) speaks to another matter. This young man doesn't seem to have the instinct for survival. Are we teaching people that they don't need to be concerned about their own survival? Darwin would be proud. What I mean by that is that allowing people to live in that fashion indicates that we don't care about them and are happy to let them remove themselves from the gene pool.

I think Rich's take that this guy should have the desire to help himself is correct. The fact that he doesn't seem to have that desire is disconcerting and I can't help but think that we are to blame, as a society.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 8/19/2012 5:43:15 PM >

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RE: Poverty programs - 8/19/2012 5:49:57 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

This isnt a poverty issue... its both an intelligence one.. and a motivational one.


Exactly. Two years ago I was renting a few rooms in a $500,000 house. The first winter, I noticed a draft in a window that had a hurricane shutter over it. Her boys had made cracks in the window when they were teenagers...TEN YEARS AGO!

I did insist she fix the fist sized hole in the den.

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