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RE: Poverty programs - 8/23/2012 6:39:18 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

As I understand it



Well, there is your problem, then, Tweak.  Don't assume the AA model has jack shit to do with my opinions and experience in the matter, and quit trying to hijack the thread.

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RE: Poverty programs - 8/23/2012 6:46:51 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

It's follows the adage, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."


You can follow the adage if you like. I'll follow the evidence thanks.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/23/2012 6:49:24 AM >

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RE: Poverty programs - 8/23/2012 7:29:19 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

As I understand it



Well, there is your problem, then, Tweak.  Don't assume the AA model has jack shit to do with my opinions and experience in the matter, and quit trying to hijack the thread.

She's "hijacking" it by disagreeing with you, Your Majesty.

And she's suggesting your experience in this area may be at odds with more more established experience.

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RE: Poverty programs - 8/23/2012 7:30:31 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:


What did these churches pay in taxes for the use of our roads, bridges, wealth gathering, and so on? and how they fleece the feeble minded.

What does any tax exempt organization pay in taxes.


You mean they didn't build that by themselves????????

(in reply to papassion)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Poverty programs - 8/23/2012 8:46:58 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Gentrification doesn't save, "the community," as made up of the people. It isn't supposed to. Drawing in people with money enough to revitalize the area is how we build something of value in "the community," as expressed in the lines on the map, and the physical place.


Hmmmm . . . seems you do not understand the essential difference between a community of people and lines drawn on a map.

quote:

We were actually doing a halfway decent job of finding some common ground to work from, until I stepped on your dogma, and suggested that if it takes a village, and this village can't figure out to plug the hole where the frigid air steals what warmth the people are able to generate in the house, then the village needs to go. Tell me, Vince, what is it about the collective energy, as it currently exists, that you think is so worth saving?


I never advocated saving the community in its current condition. Now, you are desperately making up shit.

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RE: Poverty programs - 8/23/2012 12:06:26 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

It's follows the adage, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

You can follow the adage if you like. I'll follow the evidence thanks.


What evidence? Here is exactly what you said:

quote:

In my observation, the critical factor in many (if not most) recoveries is emotional support from the addict's circle of friends family professional health carers etc. While it is certainly true that nothing will help someone who doesn't want the help and support, the number of successful recoveries achieved without adequate emotional support is minimal.


Post#51.

Nothing I have stated disagrees that a good support system will lead to the best results in addicts trying to recover. But, we have to go back to what Heretic stated.

quote:

You'll have to catch me on the right thread, at the right time, Erie. I can tell you all about addiction, and the first thing I'll tell you about successful recovery is that it must be an individual act. Support is really nice, but not mandatory, and all the rehab in the world is pointless, for someone who doesn't really want to stop.


Post#42.

Not mandatory = Not required for success. Since you have already stated that success can be had without a support group, it can't be a requirement for success. No one disagrees that it helps and is important. But, even you have stated that if the person doesn't want help or support, it will be useless in his/her recovery. Heretic's premise is that the individual has to make the decision to stop before any support, rehab, etc. will be helpful.

Regarding leading a horse to water, leading the horse to the water is the job of the support group. If the horse isn't thirsty, it ain't drinking, regardless of your leading it to water. If an addict doesn't want to stop, your support and rehab isn't going to force the addict to recover.

You have stated it in your own posts. You have used your own words.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Poverty programs - 8/23/2012 4:47:08 PM   
dcnovice


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Finally got a chance to print and read the article. (My old eyes can't take in that much text on screen.) Wow. Awesome piece of journalism imho, drawing one into an unfamiliar, complex, and often misunderstood landscape.

It was fascinating and heartbreaking to learn how early the effects of deep poverty can appear, even neurologically:

There are now seven million American children whose families earn below 50 percent of the poverty line. And in the last decade, we learned quite a lot about what it does to children to grow up surrounded by the kind of everyday chaos that often accompanies life in a family that is earning less than $11,000 a year. Neuroscientists and developmental psychologists can now explain how early stress and trauma disrupt the healthy growth of the prefrontal cortex; how the absence of strong and supportive relationships with stable adults inhibits a child’s development of a crucial set of cognitive skills called executive functions.

In fact, though, you don’t need a neuroscientist to explain the effects of a childhood spent in deep poverty. Your average kindergarten teacher in a high-poverty neighborhood can tell you: children who grow up in especially difficult circumstances are much more likely to have trouble controlling their impulses in school, getting along with classmates and following instructions. Intensive early interventions can make a big difference, but without that extra help, students from the poorest homes usually fall behind in school early on, and they rarely catch up. When you cluster lots of children with impulse-control issues together in a single classroom, it becomes harder for teachers to teach and for students to learn. And when these same children reach adolescence — unless someone like Steve Gates has managed to intervene — they are more likely to become a danger to themselves, to each other and to their community.

Might this, I wonder, help explain why some folks may not demonstrate the individual initiative we take for granted in more prosperous strata of society?

I definitely need to give this meaty story another read. My initial takeaway is a deepened skepticism about easy answers to intractable poverty.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Poverty programs - 8/23/2012 5:25:13 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Might this, I wonder, help explain why some folks may not demonstrate the individual initiative we take for granted in more prosperous strata of society?

I definitely need to give this meaty story another read. My initial takeaway is a deepened skepticism about easy answers to intractable poverty.


Roseland apparently is a gang war zone in which innocent people are trapped by the most desperate poverty, an environment that presents a huge impediment to a culture in which individual initiative and responsibility can flourish. Roseland should be treated like any failed nation marked by violence and instability. Stability must be restored before individual healing can begin in any meaningful way. Just mho.

The Broken Windows Strategy , while it has some distractors and skeptics has demonstrated some success. I am no longer afraid to ride the subways in NYC.

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Poverty programs - 8/23/2012 6:27:59 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		But Roseland is not a failed state, Vince.  It has certainly been failed by "the state," at every level of governance, but your first characterization was much better.  The community, as it exists, is a malignant cancer.  Further, as your Wiki link from earlier in the discussion noted, it is one of 77 official communities that make up the city of Chicago. 

I do not agree that the community and the individuals in it are inextricably connected.  Without the collective energy of the people, the community will certainly perish (and it should), but the people are not equally dependent. Do you truly believe that the potential trauma of uprooting families, and forcing them into new environments, and different communities is going to have a worse impact on the individuals, than what growing up and living in the Roseland of today has done to them? 



(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Poverty programs - 8/23/2012 6:44:56 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I definitely need to give this meaty story another read. My initial takeaway is a deepened skepticism about easy answers to intractable poverty.



I'm glad you found it worthwhile, DC. 

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Poverty programs - 8/23/2012 8:57:07 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

No, Muse, she's trying to hijack by repeatedly coming back to a side point that came up briefly, was used as an example to lead right back into the topic at hand, and was stated to be a matter for another thread, at that time.


You made an invalid claim. I corrected it. If that's what you think a hijack is, then that tells us something about your judgement.

On the other hand, the snark is all your work alone - truly an "individual act".

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Poverty programs - 8/24/2012 5:26:59 AM   
Sanity


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Which is your master the government letting them keep their own money

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

. . . . but does give preferencial tax treatment to . . .



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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Poverty programs - 8/24/2012 8:06:51 AM   
VideoAdminChi


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Status: offline 		Greetings all.

Please refer to the section guidelines: http://www.collarchat.com/m_3863025/tm.htm

A number of posts were removed for personal attacks, quoting or replying to posts that were pulled, or being off topic. We will be reviewing the rest of the thread. Please take a breath, refrain from making personal attacks, and stay on topic.

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Poverty programs - 8/24/2012 10:26:30 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

But Roseland is not a failed state, Vince. It has certainly been failed by "the state," at every level of governance, but your first characterization was much better. The community, as it exists, is a malignant cancer. Further, as your Wiki link from earlier in the discussion noted, it is one of 77 official communities that make up the city of Chicago.


Rich, the line between a failed state and a cancerous community seems to be a distinction without much of a difference. Both are rotting from within.

There are 44,000 people in Roseland with a density of 9200/square mile. That seems a bit crowded to me but I am not certain. Anyway the median family income is reported as $42,854. Referrence So, at least half of the community's families are making a lower middle class income. That suggests there is a nucleus of citizens around which a community renewal can be accomplished without "forcing families into new environments." Really, wouldn't that be a decision to be made by the locals? And, Rich, I really don't understand this business of "forcing relocation." I am puzzled by what place such action has in a democracy. What mechanism do you envision? The CDC suggests that Gentrification has negative health effects on displaced families. Can you address that? Let me point out btw that the high rise projects in Roseland were all taken down. I don't know if that is where the notorious Cabrini Green was. Might have been.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 8/24/2012 10:27:37 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Poverty programs - 8/24/2012 10:41:04 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

But Roseland is not a failed state, Vince. It has certainly been failed by "the state," at every level of governance,


It seems more complicated than that:

Fortunes began to change in the 1960s when industry patterns lead to economic decline. Steel mills to the east were shuttered. Pullman scaled back production and eventually closed for good in 1981. The huge Sherwin-Williams paint factory closed for good in 1980. A period of rapid ethnic succession took place. Skyrocketing crime rates, gang violence, racial tension and urban decay forced longtime residents, businesses and the rock band, Styx, to move away, a phenomenon referred to as white flight. Some new residents purchased homes with federal subsidies and FHA backed mortgages and by the mid-1980s Roseland had one of the highest HUD repossession rates in the city. In the mid-1990s, Roseland gained notoriety as the stomping ground of Robert "Yummy" Sandifer, the child who was executed by his gang at age eleven. Much needed economic and social revival remains elusive. same Wiki article sourced

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Poverty programs - 8/24/2012 12:24:32 PM   
vincentML


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Chicago has some serious problems on the South side and West side.

Chicago murders surge again in August
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=8781238

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Poverty programs - 8/24/2012 3:13:33 PM   
VideoAdminChi


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Due to reaching the maximum amount of personal attacks, the topic has been closed.

Please refrain from making personal attacks.

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Profile   Post #: 77
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