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punishments - 8/23/2012 10:15:36 AM

chemeli

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Question inspired by the Physical and non physical rewards and punishments thread : Are punishments necessary in a D/s relationship? Wouldnt talking be enough in most cases?

There's the funishment (term that i rather like ^^) but that's another matter....

Post #: 1

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:18:44 AM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chemeli

Are punishments necessary in a D/s relationship?

No

quote:

ORIGINAL: chemeli

Wouldnt talking be enough in most cases?

Define "enough".
Enough for what?

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 8/23/2012 10:19:00 AM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to chemeli)

Post #: 2

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:23:44 AM

chemeli

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Joined: 7/30/2012
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[/quote]

Define "enough".
Enough for what?
[/quote]

Enough to understand why the rules has been broken or how to remedy to it. Often there is the feeling of having failed to comply to those rules and that's enough for the sub to understand what she did wrong. I'm talking hypothetically here, but is punishment required to deepen this feeling and making the sub remembering, physically, what she did wrong...

hmmm i'm answering myself here. Nevermind.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

Post #: 3

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:26:08 AM

LadyHibiscus

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I will always be baffled by the endless parade of punishment threads.

Is it that we associate "leadership" with "finding fault"? Is every authority figure a nun with a ruler? Or--and I feel this is somewhat more likely--people feel that if they are being hurt physically it must be punitive?

I don't engage in punishment dynamics. They don't work for me, for reasons that I don't need to go into here. I manage just fine. Even those people who DO have punishment dynamics will tell you that they RARELY have to punish. We're all grownups here, no matter how silly we can be, and we're not in this to make our partners unhappy, or ourselves guilty. I really do have a fetish for unquestioning obedience, and if someone actually defies me? I want to know WHY, because something's wrong.

Play punishment--seriously hot. Much entertainment value.

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Post #: 4

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:29:02 AM

NuevaVida

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They work in some, not in others. It really depends on the emotional make-up of the people in the relationship, and what works best for them.

People say things like, "I'm an adult, I don't need to be punished" but I like to "think outside the box" so to speak (even though I don't like that phrase) and understand that there are possibilities in this world beyond my own limited thinking.

We're such complex beings - who am I do say what works best for someone and what they do/don't need? I'm still working on understanding myself!

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to chemeli)

Post #: 5

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:31:34 AM

AthenaSurrenders

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quote:

Enough to understand why the rules has been broken or how to remedy to it. Often there is the feeling of having failed to comply to those rules and that's enough for the sub to understand what she did wrong. I'm talking hypothetically here, but is punishment required to deepen this feeling and making the sub remembering, physically, what she did wrong...

Talking is enough for us to understand why rules have been broken, enough to address any underlying problems, enough to figure out what if anything needs to be done to remedy problems.

Punishment, for us, is a ritual which follows or goes alongside that. It helps me deal with any guilt or negative feelings, it re-affirms the dynamic we chose, it is cathartic and it draws a symbolic line under the problem. So I guess it isn't necessary, strictly speaking. I'd still do my best to be obedient and pleasing without it. But for us it enhances the relationship, and as I've admitted here in the past, I personally find it a helpful way to deal with some unhealthy negative emotions I might otherwise dwell on.

< Message edited by AthenaSurrenders -- 8/23/2012 10:33:22 AM >

_____________________________

Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?

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Post #: 6

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:32:03 AM

sexyred1

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I agree with LadyHib. I only do play punishment. I don't believe in grown ups being punished; I believe in communication to solve problems.

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 7

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:32:43 AM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chemeli

Enough to understand why the rules has been broken or how to remedy to it. Often there is the feeling of having failed to comply to those rules and that's enough for the sub to understand what she did wrong. I'm talking hypothetically here, but is punishment required to deepen this feeling and making the sub remembering, physically, what she did wrong...

hmmm i'm answering myself here. Nevermind.

It depends on what the goal of the punishment is.

If the goal is to make her understand what she did wrong, or why the rules where broken, or remedy an issue, or what the expectations where to begin with, talking is very much more useful than punishment. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that punishment is not only ineffective in reaching those goals, but actual counter-effective.

However, if the goal is to obtain absolution, to reaffirm the D-type's control, to provide a method of diffusing pumped up hormone levels in the blood, to create intimacy between the D and s, or to create a headspace, punishments can be very effective.

I tend to think about punishments akin to having make up sex after a fight. The sex rarely, if ever, actually stops the fight, or fixes the problem that caused the fight in the first place -that's what's talking is for- but, once talking has taken the conflict to a point where a resolution is reached, the make up sex can provide a renewal of intimacy, and resolve the pumped up hormone levels caused by the stress of the fight.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 8/23/2012 10:40:12 AM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to chemeli)

Post #: 8

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:33:21 AM

chemeli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Is it that we associate "leadership" with "finding fault"? Is every authority figure a nun with a ruler? Or--and I feel this is somewhat more likely--people feel that if they are being hurt physically it must be punitive?

I'm feeling that someone with a leadership position is also the one with the teaching role and i guess i'm associating teaching and finding faults together. I'm expecting them to find faults.....maybe it's more associated with a low self esteem, but i think not, i esteem myself pretty well.

So, Is it bad or good? Neither, it's just how i view things. (for the moment?)

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 9

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:34:38 AM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Even those people who DO have punishment dynamics will tell you that they RARELY have to punish.

I have a punishment dynamic in which punishments are semi-frequent.
So not all people engaging in punishment dynamics would tell you that they rarely have to punish.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 10

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:35:36 AM

AthenaSurrenders

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Joined: 3/15/2012
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Ishtar - I think I love you.

I hate punishment threads because they are always full of comments about how adults shouldn't need to be punished which make me feel a bit judged and icky.

You expressed that beautifully.

_____________________________

Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?

(in reply to chemeli)

Post #: 11

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:35:40 AM

NuevaVida

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Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I agree with LadyHib. I only do play punishment. I don't believe in grown ups being punished; I believe in communication to solve problems.

I totally get that you don't do punishment dynamics, but wanted to comment that punishment does not replace communication. Your post appears to present it as one or the other.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to sexyred1)

Post #: 12

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:35:53 AM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chemeli
Question inspired by the Physical and non physical rewards and punishments thread : Are punishments necessary in a D/s relationship? Wouldnt talking be enough in most cases?

Carol doesn't resist and she doesn't disobey. Nor does she have any sort of masochistic streak and I don't have a sadistic streak. Nor do either one of us feel that some sort of punishment in any way absolves someone of guilt. So for us, it serves no purpose.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 8/23/2012 10:37:44 AM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to chemeli)

Post #: 13

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:39:10 AM

sexyred1

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Joined: 8/9/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I agree with LadyHib. I only do play punishment. I don't believe in grown ups being punished; I believe in communication to solve problems.

I totally get that you don't do punishment dynamics, but wanted to comment that punishment does not replace communication. Your post appears to present it as one or the other.

You are right; I worded that incorrectly. Sorry, I was actually addressing another punishment thread where the OP was afraid to speak to her partner. I got confused to what I posted to!!!

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 8/23/2012 10:40:28 AM >

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 14

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:40:12 AM

NuevaVida

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That makes sense, sexyred1. Fearing to communicate doesn't advance anyone.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to sexyred1)

Post #: 15

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:40:54 AM

chemeli

Posts: 335
Joined: 7/30/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Carol doesn't resist and she doesn't disobey. Nor does she have any sort of masochistic streak and I don't have a sadistic streak. Nor do either one of us feel that some sort of punishment in any way absolves someone of guilt. So for us, it serves no purpose.

I saw your first question before you edited and it was a good point. Thank you.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 16

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:49:26 AM

CalifChick

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
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He punishes me because he's a sadist and he likes to do it. It is definitely NOT funishment. We had a little bump in the road when I felt that I was being unjustly punished for something, and in doing so, I was forced to confront a memory I had long-since buried. Confronting that memory was very helpful to me, and now, even when I KNOW I am being unjustly punished, it's okay, because it feeds his inner sadist.

It is not that I am disobedient... if I were willfully disobedient we would be having a very serious discussion about our future. What gets me in trouble is my mouth. Sometimes, just SOMETIMES, I am a bit mouthy. A tiny bit. A little. Just a teensy weensy bit. Now for those who know me in real life, I just KNOW that's hard for you to believe! INORITE!?!?!!!

CaliWhoIsReallyReallyVerySweetandInnocent

_____________________________

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(in reply to chemeli)

Post #: 17

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:50:17 AM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chemeli
I saw your first question before you edited and it was a good point. Thank you.

*nods* I edited it because I realized there WAS an element of judgment in it... judgement that I don't actually feel. As was noted above, some posters here that I very much respect do have punishment dynamics and it serves a purpose for them. It's myopic of me to suggest that just because it holds no place in my marriage it shouldn't in someone else's.

Also, it's worth pointing out that in a sense we DO have a punishment. She returns the collar and reverts to being my wife. The punishment there is that she knows I like thinking of her as "mine" so it would disappoint me. I don't actually see it as punishment per se. I see it as acknowledging reality. BY MY DEFINITIONS, if she ever was able to push me far enough that punishment was actually something I was considering then she already would not be "mine".

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to chemeli)

Post #: 18

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:53:33 AM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

Ishtar - I think I love you.

I hate punishment threads because they are always full of comments about how adults shouldn't need to be punished which make me feel a bit judged and icky.

You expressed that beautifully.

Thanks... I just wish I could spell/type/proof read without seeing it posted first...

I hate punishment threads for the same reason you hate them. Everybody seems to have this knee-jerk reaction to the concept of punishments.
I also hate the notion that if you do punish, it can't possible be something that makes the s-type horny, or else she'll end up being bad on purpose just to get punished.

That notion again falls under the "make up sex" analogy for me... So many people are horny and have wild animalistic monkey sex after a bad fight with their partner, but I've never heard a vanilla person claim that you shouldn't even have make up sex after fights, lest you'll teach your partner to pick fights with you on purpose just to have sex.

Everybody knows and understands that people in healthy relationships don't need to fight first to get their need for sex fulfilled, that need will get fulfilled just by the relationship.
Everybody knows and understands that people in healthy relationships dislike fighting enough that they won't do it on purpose to provoke sex... no matter how hot the sex after the fight may tend to be.

Yet, those two things extrapolated to D/s relationships with "failure to please" replacing "fight" and "punishment" replacing "make up sex" seem to become incomprehensible to most BDSMers.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 8/23/2012 10:55:43 AM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)

Post #: 19

RE: punishments - 8/23/2012 10:55:12 AM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

It is not that I am disobedient... if I were willfully disobedient we would be having a very serious discussion about our future. What gets me in trouble is my mouth. Sometimes, just SOMETIMES, I am a bit mouthy. A tiny bit. A little. Just a teensy weensy bit. Now for those who know me in real life, I just KNOW that's hard for you to believe! INORITE!?!?!!!

I'm shocked! SHOCKED, I tell ya!!!

The few times I've been punished have been when I wasn't mindful and made poor judgments when I should have known better (like reverting back to binging or smoking in response to stressful events). The punishments were in line with helping me stay mindful and were the final statement to some very good conversations.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 20

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