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Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 2:34:15 AM

MariaB

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Lance Armstrong is/was Americas all time cycling hero. After undergoing life saving treatment for testicular cancer that had moved to his lungs and his brain. Before cancer he was a triathlete and his muscular structure was all wrong, meaning he was no advantage in 'The Tour'. The cancer changed his muscle structure making him lighter and less top heavy. Lance went on to win 'The Tour de France' 7 times but because of his medical condition many people suspected foul play. Lance Armstrong has been hounded and drug tested continuously since 1999. He says, 'during the 'Tour' it was like a continual witch hunt but all tests proved negative.

Has Lance just had enough? throwing in the towel means he loses every title he every made.

http://healdsburg.patch.com/articles/is-lance-armstrong-guilty-or-just-exhausted-407846da

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 2:39:54 AM

DarkSteven

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I often wondered why Armstrong was hounded so much when all testing results consistently were negative. But I believed in his innocence.

The fact that he abruptly quit defending himself is a huge about turn, and I can't continue to believe he's innocent if he calmly accepts being stripped of all his titles. The only scenario that makes sense is that some new evidence arose that he can't fight.

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 2:44:11 AM

Thaz

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The main basis of the allegations is to do with Blood Doping (ie removing some blood, storing it and reintroducing it later so your effectively supercharged). This is still very hard to test for as there is no foreign substance and a top athelete will tend to high blood pressure anyway.

However a number of ex-team mates are now giving eye witness evidence.

As with any witness there's always the chance they are less than truthfull but there are a lot of them.

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 2:48:00 AM

Ninebelowzero

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancearmstrong/9498423/Lance-Armstrong-stripped-of-his-seven-Tour-de-France-titles-after-refusing-to-defend-drug-charges.html

The report alleges he was witnessed using EPO.

Personally I vote witch hunt.

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 2:49:16 AM

ARIES83

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Blood doping?!? Wow never heard of that one.

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 2:57:12 AM

Ninebelowzero

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Blood doping has been around for years, decades even. It suits up to 10k races but after that it's effectiveness declines at an incremental rate.

It works like this. You train for months on a high carb diet, carbs give you energy but also body mass. During this time you give blood & freeze it So from 2/3 months out from your event. you switch to high protein diet to cut weight & increase muscle.

Come the event it's an oil change & hey presto you get the best of both worlds.

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 3:01:15 AM

DeviantlyD

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The part of all of this that I find suspect is how it's all coming out more than 10 years later. If he was truly engaged in this type of behaviour, wouldn't at least one of all of those people have come forward before now?

Hmmm....

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 3:06:12 AM

Ninebelowzero

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Not if the practice was widespread as has been suggested many times before.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

The part of all of this that I find suspect is how it's all coming out more than 10 years later. If he was truly engaged in this type of behaviour, wouldn't at least one of all of those people have come forward before now?

Hmmm....

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 3:15:01 AM

TNDommeK

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The man has gone under extensive testing, time after time. I am sure he tired of it, I would be. I am glad Nike is standing behind him still. Each test was negative, how much more crap is he going to have to go through? I say he is innocent.

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 3:57:00 AM

DeviantlyD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ninebelowzero

Not if the practice was widespread as has been suggested many times before.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

The part of all of this that I find suspect is how it's all coming out more than 10 years later. If he was truly engaged in this type of behaviour, wouldn't at least one of all of those people have come forward before now?

Hmmm....

If that's the case, then there must be no one untainted in that sport. I just find the logistics of all of it to be a little much to swallow. Plus, if he was doping all of that time, it would have fucked up his body. I dunno. Unless there is some form of recorded evidence (photo, video, audio), it's impossible to be certain about what did or did not occur.

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 4:05:25 AM

Ninebelowzero

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I can't disagree tbh.

Re EPO blood doping. if he did that & then underwent blood replacement then he would test positive at race time if (* it's a big if) they were testing for that particular drug.

For what it's worth I say witch hunt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ninebelowzero

Not if the practice was widespread as has been suggested many times before.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

The part of all of this that I find suspect is how it's all coming out more than 10 years later. If he was truly engaged in this type of behaviour, wouldn't at least one of all of those people have come forward before now?

Hmmm....

If that's the case, then there must be no one untainted in that sport. I just find the logistics of all of it to be a little much to swallow. Plus, if he was doping all of that time, it would have fucked up his body. I dunno. Unless there is some form of recorded evidence (photo, video, audio), it's impossible to be certain about what did or did not occur.

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 4:26:40 AM

ARIES83

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My opinion is they want Armstrong because
he's high profile, it sends a big message, It's
nothing about fairness, fairness is a bi-product,
it's about taking him down...
I mean fairness would have been a decade
ago...

I personally think he deserves to keep his
titles I mean come on.
But as for is he innocent? even though I
really respect the guy, I'm not that naive to
say yes.

-ARIES

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 4:26:50 AM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I often wondered why Armstrong was hounded so much when all testing results consistently were negative. But I believed in his innocence.

The fact that he abruptly quit defending himself is a huge about turn, and I can't continue to believe he's innocent if he calmly accepts being stripped of all his titles. The only scenario that makes sense is that some new evidence arose that he can't fight.

No, the issue is that no one wins (with the exception of 2) when it goes to arbitration.
Arbitration sounds fair doesn't it?

But the record is that it is nearly impossible to win.

So, I can see dropping out before that.
For him it was lose-lose and this way he has done a small bit of damage control.

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 7:44:04 AM

MercTech

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My understanding of the crux of the matter is whether the drug regimen given after radical cancer therapy constitutes performance enhancing drugs.

The whole thing always had the odor of sour grapes to me.

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 7:56:17 AM

SlipSlidingAway

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ninebelowzero

Not if the practice was widespread as has been suggested many times before.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

The part of all of this that I find suspect is how it's all coming out more than 10 years later. If he was truly engaged in this type of behaviour, wouldn't at least one of all of those people have come forward before now?

Hmmm....

But, if it was THAT widespread going after just one person is essentially still a witch hunt, no? I mean if everyone (or the vast majority) were doing it, it was still a fairly even playing field.

I personally think that he's been singled out and targeted- which goes way beyond unfair after all of this time.

Open an inquiry that goes deeper than stripping Armstrong of his wins or let them stand. Changing things retroactively for ONE person and not all the others? Nah, does not fly with me...

< Message edited by SlipSlidingAway -- 8/25/2012 7:58:14 AM >

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 8:20:08 AM

Ninebelowzero

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For my 18th birthday I got a very large stomach tumour, prior to this I was a serious rugby player & at 6''1' & 17 stone ish . By the time chemo & surgery had finished 3 montyhs later i was down to 7 stone. It took 4 years to get the muscle mass & general fitness back to play again. The chemo also stopped me growing any further.

The point to this yarn is that it is alleged his drug regime helped him shed bulk in his upper body which is a waste for endurance events. I dispute that. The chemo would have done that anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

My understanding of the crux of the matter is whether the drug regimen given after radical cancer therapy constitutes performance enhancing drugs.

The whole thing always had the odor of sour grapes to me.

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 8:26:19 AM

kitkat105

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I want to believe his innocent, but something about the whole thing just seems shady to me.

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 8:47:14 AM

Thaz

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Certainly the British Cycling movement avoid pro cycling untill recently (despite dominating at Bejing) because it wasnt seen as 'a level playing field' ie they believed that doping of one sort or another was endemic to the professional sport at that time.

Armstrong may well have been _told_ that as a)Everyone was doing it and b)Blood doping is re using your own blood so its not like popping steroids now is it? And he may well have been pressured to do it to win.

I think he allmost certainly was dirty but I suspect he was far far from alone and it was not considered an issue at the time. This is like various US Government officials involved in rendition or torture who were basicaly told to do it at the time but since the powers that be have changed their tune and gone retroactively moral.

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 8:55:17 AM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

The man has gone under extensive testing, time after time. I am sure he tired of it, I would be. I am glad Nike is standing behind him still. Each test was negative, how much more crap is he going to have to go through? I say he is innocent.

He's been fighting this literally for years. At some point you just become tired of it. It consumes your life. The reality is that regardless of being stripped of his titles, everyone knows who he is and what he did.

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RE: Was this a witch hunt? - 8/25/2012 9:06:02 AM

sunshinemiss

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From the article, this seems salient:

quote:

The bottom line is I played by the rules that were put in place by the UCI, WADA and USADA when I raced. The idea that athletes can be convicted today without positive A and B samples, under the same rules and procedures that apply to athletes with positive tests, perverts the system and creates a process where any begrudged ex-teammate can open a USADA case out of spite or for personal gain or a cheating cyclist can cut a sweetheart deal for themselves. It’s an unfair approach, applied selectively, in opposition to all the rules. It’s just not right.

(emphasis mine)

Yeah.... something...

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