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Contracts and/or agreements - 8/27/2012 12:56:31 PM   
culareD


Posts: 762
Joined: 8/16/2012
Status: offline 		Happy Monday everyone...

I have a contract/agreement question...I am not trying to spark a debate on whether or not they should be used. I personally think they are a great idea so that expectations are clearly understood...they are not for everyone though. I get it.

As a sub, have you ever been asked to write your own "agreement" to be added to by the D? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.


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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/27/2012 1:00:40 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		Master and I did this when we first got together.

He did not ask me to write the entirety. He asked me to write out my wants, needs and expectations. He did the same. Then we sat down and made revisions together.

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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/27/2012 1:41:23 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		I did this once, sort of... one of those checklisty things, at the instigation of my slave. It was sort of useful, sort of not.

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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/27/2012 2:36:45 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: culareD

Happy Monday everyone...

I have a contract/agreement question...I am not trying to spark a debate on whether or not they should be used. I personally think they are a great idea so that expectations are clearly understood...they are not for everyone though. I get it.

As a sub, have you ever been asked to write your own "agreement" to be added to by the D? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.


I don't believe in such things - that mature adults wishing to share an intimate relationship really should be able to leave the lawyers and fine print out of it etc.

That said, I'm posting here because of this comment: "As a sub, have you ever been asked to write your own "agreement" to be added to by the D?" To be added to by the D? To me, that's a clueless dom relying on you for his cues and direction. Kinda think D/s largely works the other way 'round.

At the very least, if it's an initial, formalised agreement, then as OsideGirl said, you *individually* write out what you each want/need/expect and then work out any necessary compromises or dealbreakers etc.

And you should stay away from "doms" who need the sub to lead....

Focus.

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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/27/2012 3:44:31 PM   
BambiBoi


Posts: 461
Joined: 8/10/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

And you should stay away from "doms" who need the sub to lead....

Focus.[/font][/size][/color]


That's the truth of it.

Plus... if you co-author the contract you cannot later rely on the construction theory of contra proferentem, whereby the ambiguous term in a contract is construed against the drafter.

I think that Oside brings up something important. As an exercise to be clear about what you like, dislike, need, and expect, the contract makes good sense. We three seem to be in general agreement about that. I'm trying hard to stay on point because you were clear that we are not discussing the merits of contract vs. no contract.

I've never been asked to draft an agreement. I have been asked, via email (so in writing) what I expected to get out of the relationship, what I expected to offer, what concerns I have, what limits I have, etc. All the basic scene/relationship negotiating. What I'm trying to say is that I would not want to write the protocol of the relationship, the punishments, the rules, etc.

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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/27/2012 3:51:35 PM   
PrincessJessieJ


Posts: 159
Joined: 7/3/2012
Status: offline 		Goodness.

I have one question- with the exception of 'writing out your hopes, wants, and needs' and revising them with your prospective Dom who's done the same thing-- which, personally, I don't consider a contract.. Who would ask/tell their slave to write their own agreement, unless it's in the case of long distance domination and the slave has no printer, therefor has been ordered to hand-write and sign what the Dom/me has sent them? (Seen it done. She made him write out two copies, one for himself, and one for her to keep. it seemed to be pretty effective of pounding it into his head just what he was getting into. ..he also had the prettiest writing I'd ever seen for a man, loops and curves and flowers to dot the i's and j's with.)

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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/27/2012 4:08:04 PM   
pyschosubmission


Posts: 1109
Joined: 7/6/2012
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BambiBoi

Plus... if you co-author the contract you cannot later rely on the construction theory of contra proferentem, whereby the ambiguous term in a contract is construed against the drafter.



Any kink-based contract isn't worth the paper it's written on in a court of law. Well I can't say for USA but certainly in Scotland and the UK as a whole given that any form of sadism is actually legally classified as Assault and Battery, possibly even Grievous Bodily Harm to temporary disfigurement, even with consent. Which means that any "contract" involving kink is completely null and void.

I hasten to add I'm not having a go there, just adding the legal shit I've picked up from kinky lawyers

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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/27/2012 4:25:21 PM   
RemoteUser


Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline 		The only 'serious' contract I wrote out was my own draft, and upon completing it I showed to it my then-slave and said, make notes on what you can't handle, and why, so that I know what I'm considering when I rewrite. There were three drafts overall before the final copy was done, each time because of something new she saw upon reading it through again.

I took her input because once it was all said and done, it was going to be a reference tool for our activities if needed, so it might as well be accurate. In the end, it wasn't used anyhow.


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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/27/2012 4:31:04 PM   
PrincessJessieJ


Posts: 159
Joined: 7/3/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pyschosubmission


quote:

ORIGINAL: BambiBoi

Plus... if you co-author the contract you cannot later rely on the construction theory of contra proferentem, whereby the ambiguous term in a contract is construed against the drafter.



Any kink-based contract isn't worth the paper it's written on in a court of law. Well I can't say for USA but certainly in Scotland and the UK as a whole given that any form of sadism is actually legally classified as Assault and Battery, possibly even Grievous Bodily Harm to temporary disfigurement, even with consent. Which means that any "contract" involving kink is completely null and void.

I hasten to add I'm not having a go there, just adding the legal shit I've picked up from kinky lawyers


I think it's pretty much the same here, luv.
Contract of slavery or servitude, consensual blackmail, anything to do with impact play, and it gets tossed. In some cases- slavery, for instance- it can actually be used against both parties, if I recall correct.


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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/27/2012 4:32:21 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		Yeah, ours was tossed out long ago, but I do consider it a good tool to open up communications about things you may not think to talk about.



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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/27/2012 4:47:21 PM   
pyschosubmission


Posts: 1109
Joined: 7/6/2012
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline 		It's probably a good way of expressing what both people want from the ensuing relationship within a high protocol setting, just I'd pity anyone that actually thinks they are legally obliged by it

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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/27/2012 5:56:27 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		As is typical with "contract" threads, whether you want a debate about them or not, it's going to happen. So you'll have a bunch of people giving all the reasons why they're not a good idea, and a bunch of people saying they have one, and they *are* a good idea.

That said, he and I have a commitment agreement, which we call our contract because contract is easier to say than commitment agreement. He did not have me write it. We spent hours and hours over the course of several months, having some really cool conversations about what kinds of things we'd like it to reflect. It was very bonding, and quite intimate.

We don't use it for legal purposes, or to hold over each others heads, or for blackmail. Those ideas never occurred to us. Our purpose for doing this was to have something we wrote together, that we could reference should life circumstances bring us to forget some of the things we committed to each other.

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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/27/2012 6:19:10 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

I don't believe in such things - that mature adults wishing to share an intimate relationship really should be able to leave the lawyers and fine print out of it etc.




*Chuckle*... my sub IS a lawyer! I'm not leaving her out of it.

I'm going to have to dig up our contract and see what it says. Of course, the whole thing is unenforceable, but it's a good way to think through things and discuss.

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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/27/2012 8:50:51 PM   
culareD


Posts: 762
Joined: 8/16/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser

The only 'serious' contract I wrote out was my own draft, and upon completing it I showed to it my then-slave and said, make notes on what you can't handle, and why, so that I know what I'm considering when I rewrite. There were three drafts overall before the final copy was done, each time because of something new she saw upon reading it through again.

I took her input because once it was all said and done, it was going to be a reference tool for our activities if needed, so it might as well be accurate. In the end, it wasn't used anyhow.



I definitely see the value in this approach...

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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/27/2012 8:54:54 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Only the one we're using to define our financial relationship for our business. But I'm sure that's not the kind of thing you're asking about.

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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/27/2012 9:44:26 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		We're adults. Her contract is her word.
The day I can't trust her, she is gone, jettisoned.
And the same hold true for moi.

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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/27/2012 9:50:12 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

.

As a sub, have you ever been asked to write your own "agreement" to be added to by the D? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.



I am no sub... I suppose others may do it that way...but it's not an approach I would ever use. It just feels like the cart ahead of the horse approach to me.

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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/28/2012 5:32:08 AM   
SpaceSpank


Posts: 244
Joined: 10/3/2010
Status: offline 		As long as both parties understand that this is in no way enforceable legally, then they can be useful to an extent. To me I think the biggest use for them is for new submissive and dominants to outline clear must haves, hard limits, and a duration for their relationship.

Obviously if one party or the other decides they no longer wish to follow the contract it's worth about as much as the toilet paper they just flushed... but so long as they are both adhering to it, it makes a decent reference point for them while working through things. Having a defined end point to the relationship can be useful when you have no idea how you will enjoy it. It's a point in time to work towards and then be able to look back and evaluate what you have been through to see if you wish to proceed.

Maybe both loved every minute of it and will just keep going sans contract, maybe they are cautiously uncertain and want to try more and adjust it as needed for another set period of time, or maybe one/both decided that either the lifestyle or other person just isn't for them and they move on. In all cases the contract served its purpose.

Now, outside of being "useful" some people just like them. It may be part of their kink as opposed actually being something they want/expect to be enforced. In that case it's like a decorative collar or some other sign of ownership. In those cases knock yourself out and write up whatever you want.

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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/28/2012 5:47:41 AM   
WomanlyWiles


Posts: 166
Joined: 3/14/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pyschosubmission

It's probably a good way of expressing what both people want from the ensuing relationship within a high protocol setting, just I'd pity anyone that actually thinks they are legally obliged by it


I WomanlyWiles, being of sound mind...wait, I fell at the first hurdle there.

I think there's something to be said for being clear about what you both want, but that doesn't stop it from evolving and developing as you go along. Being able to have potentially difficult, embarrassing or intimate conversations was a skill I learned far too late in life. I just didn't have the emotional intelligence or vocabulary for it. If writing it down makes it more real for you, do it.

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RE: Contracts and/or agreements - 8/28/2012 8:12:24 AM   
culareD


Posts: 762
Joined: 8/16/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WomanlyWiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: pyschosubmission

It's probably a good way of expressing what both people want from the ensuing relationship within a high protocol setting, just I'd pity anyone that actually thinks they are legally obliged by it


I WomanlyWiles, being of sound mind...wait, I fell at the first hurdle there.

I think there's something to be said for being clear about what you both want, but that doesn't stop it from evolving and developing as you go along. Being able to have potentially difficult, embarrassing or intimate conversations was a skill I learned far too late in life. I just didn't have the emotional intelligence or vocabulary for it. If writing it down makes it more real for you, do it.


*chuckling a bit* "sound mind"...I am thinking that the agreement portion will be useful to be clear about each others needs, wants, desires, fears etc... It seems as though it can serve an "icebreaker" to open up some great dialogue. And I love to write...

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