Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: What does is really mean to be a slave?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/31/2012 12:08:28 AM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SacredDepravity

I don’t have any issue with the historical context of slavery anymore. This is not what we are talking about. No matter how “slave” or “owned” we feel, legally there is no room for slavery in the here and now society of which I am a part. I am free to leave if I wish. Historical slavery starts with nonconsent and ends with clear exercising of consent to REMOVE consent. This slavery starts with consent to STAY and ends with a clear lack of desire and, perhaps, ability to leave. This is opposite world in my view and has no resemblance to historical slavery whatsoever except the word itself.




Exactly. Even the dictionary supports the idea of non-legal, non-force based slavery.
Legal, force-based slavery is only one of the definitions of slavery, so I really have no idea why it keeps being brought up in a BDSM setting. Because legal slavery is not the definition of slavery discussed in a BDSM context.

Hell, vanilla's use the word slavery all the time to denote somebody under influence of an external force, and never have any issues with the fact that one of the other definitions is one of legal slavery. I don't understand why so many BDSMers get hung up on that distention.

quote:


slav·ery noun \ˈslā-v(ə-)rē\

Definition of SLAVERY

1
: drudgery, toil
2
: submission to a dominating influence
3
a : the state of a person who is a chattel of another
b : the practice of slaveholding

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slavery


quote:


slav·er·y (slv-r, slvr)
n. pl. slav·er·ies
1. The state of one bound in servitude as the property of a slaveholder or household.
2.
a. The practice of owning slaves.
b. A mode of production in which slaves constitute the principal work force.
3. The condition of being subject or addicted to a specified influence.
4. A condition of hard work and subjection: wage slavery.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/slavery


quote:


(slā'və-rē, slāv'rē)
n., pl., -ies.
The state of one bound in servitude as the property of a slaveholder or household.
The practice of owning slaves.
A mode of production in which slaves constitute the principal work force.
The condition of being subject or addicted to a specified influence.
A condition of hard work and subjection: wage slavery.


Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/slavery#ixzz256Zn2oTu

http://www.answers.com/topic/slavery


quote:


slav·er·y   [sley-vuh-ree, sleyv-ree] Show IPA
noun
1.
the condition of a slave; bondage.
2.
the keeping of slaves as a practice or institution.
3.
a state of subjection like that of a slave: He was kept in slavery by drugs.
4.
severe toil; drudgery.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slavery




_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to SacredDepravity)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/31/2012 9:19:54 AM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

For me...

A slave is somebody primarily ruled by an external force.
A non-slave is somebody primarily ruled by their own self.

If an external force habitually is able to override your will, by the force of their own, you're a slave. Regardless of D/s or M/s labels.
If you are primarily self-determinate and independent in your thoughts and actions, you're not a slave. Regardless of D/s or M/s labels.


I feel like "being self-determinate" and "having your will forcibly overridden" are really two extremes, though. There's lots of ground between the two.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/31/2012 11:16:28 AM   
WomanlyWiles


Posts: 166
Joined: 3/14/2012
Status: offline 		Psycho defines himself as my property, but if he thought that meant not abiding by his own principles and morals, irrespective of the inducement, I'd kick him out in a heartbeat, and he knows that. He's a very decent man, and that's one of the reasons I chose him.

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/31/2012 12:34:27 PM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

For me...

A slave is somebody primarily ruled by an external force.
A non-slave is somebody primarily ruled by their own self.

If an external force habitually is able to override your will, by the force of their own, you're a slave. Regardless of D/s or M/s labels.
If you are primarily self-determinate and independent in your thoughts and actions, you're not a slave. Regardless of D/s or M/s labels.


I feel like "being self-determinate" and "having your will forcibly overridden" are really two extremes, though. There's lots of ground between the two.


Which is why the words "primarily" and "habitually" are in that post.

The slave - submissive - neutral - dominant -masterful scale, is like all scales of human behavior, one of gray tones.
So it's all a matter of frequency, and tendencies.

When your partner really wants a "yes" and you really want to give him a "no"... does he gets his way or not? And if he does, how often does he gets his way? And if he doesn't, how often can you "win" that confrontation and still call yourself a slave?
If you "win" that confrontation once, and successfully tell him "no" when you want to, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that you're not habitually ruled by an external force. However, if 75% of the time when a "slave" and their "Master" differ in opinion, the "slave" prevails in pushing their will through, the is no slavery to speak of, in my opinion... regardless of the label both parties may want to put on their relationship.


_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/31/2012 1:16:59 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
When your partner really wants a "yes" and you really want to give him a "no"... does he gets his way or not? And if he does, how often does he gets his way? And if he doesn't, how often can you "win" that confrontation and still call yourself a slave?
If you "win" that confrontation once, and successfully tell him "no" when you want to, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that you're not habitually ruled by an external force. However, if 75% of the time when a "slave" and their "Master" differ in opinion, the "slave" prevails in pushing their will through, the is no slavery to speak of, in my opinion... regardless of the label both parties may want to put on their relationship.

See.. and this is one of the myriad places I get confused. Carol and I don't live in a world of "his way" and "her way". I honestly have no idea how often I get "my way" because I don't even know what "my way" is. There's only really the initial "multiple ways" and then the final "our way". At most what I can say is that I'm the guy who gets the multiples down to a single but in terms of "who's way was it?" there is no answer to that.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/31/2012 1:21:27 PM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline 		I don't see you guys as M/s Jeff. Exactly because there isn't "an external force" ruling either one of you.
Instead, you guys are a symbiotic force working towards a common goal... that ain't slavery to me.

I'm sorry, it may be my past experiences leaking through, but I'm very by the book, dictionary definitions dependent when it comes to the "slavery" box in my head... and I don't see you as having "subjugated" Carol in any way, shape, or for... so as far as I'm concerned you guys ain't in it.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 8/31/2012 1:22:51 PM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/31/2012 1:44:35 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		I've been watching this thread, b/c it's a topic close to my heart.

In my years on this planet, I have been all over the place with the term "slave."

For it, against it, wanting to redefine it, seeing it as a word which changes according to who uses it. Some examples are: "slave to love" or "slave to music" or "slave to <insert your passion here.>"

So when you ask, what does it really mean to be a slave, the answer is what it means for that individual slave.

Please realize, I do not on this forum self identify as slave. This would confuse people greatly. The term slave tends to smack of being so internally enslaved that you do not retain the personal wherewithall to leave. A slave is property. As such, you can't just run away.

It's a mind set. It's an emotional state.

As I type this, I have to say:. I am slave. I need him. My mindset and emotional state are such I cannot envision a life w/o him. He did not "acquire" me through cruelty or punishment, he is one of the sweetest men on the planet. He did it through great emotional leadership.

We are bonded in a way that is hard to explain in text. I live to please him, to serve him. This doesn't lessen me; it enhances me. In many ways it is sexual, but for us it is so far beyond the sexual, it is the spiritual, the cerebral (we are both hugely cerebral).

It sounds trite to say we complete each other. We met in our 40s, both of us could have lived out our lives fine having never met each other.

Together, we make a stronger whole, and we do that by one stepping forward, one stepping back. I step back. That is slave to me.

We now return to our regularly scheduled program.








_____________________________



(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/31/2012 2:01:21 PM   
Salinedion


Posts: 198
Joined: 5/25/2012
Status: offline 		It's hot for us to think in terms of some Spartacus+slave girl trope. It makes us come hard. It def ups the sex times per month quotient. It aint profound.

But for us, the big shift is commitment. She commits to sort of fitting into my groove on a macro-life level (sex is a settled issue), and I commit to constructively polishing her up to do so. It's more of an ideal than role.

It takes a healthy ego to ethically subsume another ego -and of course, vice versa. We like the process, we love each other.

I think that's the mix that seems to work: sane, low key people; an open-ended approach to growing together (guided by the ol' Dark Lord, of course), a clearly defined emotional attachment that both parties thrive under.

_____________________________

I hate the 'reply to' note at the end of the post. Just assume I'm posting to the board at large and not the person above me unless I say diff, OK?

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/31/2012 10:16:47 PM   
samdarella


Posts: 222
Joined: 8/23/2010
Status: offline 		I was taught that no one else should be allowed to give me a label. That it was my decision where on the continuum I belonged. I used to just identify as a submissive. I knew I had slave tendencies and maybe a slave's heart. But I felt that I couldn't just call myself a slave as I had never lived as one. I have listened to and seen so many self proclaimed slaves that in my mind were not. They are as long as things are going their way. As soon as something is asked of them they don't like they leave. To me, a slave does always have the right to leave. But if they leave as soon as the going gets a little tough, then a slave they aren't.

I had a relationship with a dominant couple. She owns a slave in another state. He did own a live in slave when we met. He trained me like he did his slave. But that didnt make me a slave. He didn't own me. He only controlled me while I was there, with a few exceptions that overlapped into my life. So even though I did almost everything that his slave before me did, I still didn't label myself as slave because I wasn't property. I didn't know that sense of belonging.

Now I identify as a slave. I belong to Master. I'm far from being a perfect slave. That gives us lots to work on. But I'm living the life. I'm walking the walk. What changed? Not really me. I'm mostly the same person I was before only better. I'm better because I'm happy and fulfilled. What changed is that now I know for sure that I can and have given my will to another. That I will obey even when I don't really want to. I can't say no. I can ask Him to reconsider. I can beg. But ultimately I will do whatever Master decides. Not just because I feel like it today. But because I am His slave.

_____________________________

Take me to the edge.

Pain is....

(in reply to Salinedion)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/31/2012 10:39:26 PM   
subbyincalif


Posts: 3
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: samdarella

I was taught that no one else should be allowed to give me a label.



Personally, I don't get threads like this. Hard for me to understand why someone cares how terms are defined. I mean, really, who gives a shit if person A defines slave in one way and person B defines it in another way. To me, all that matters is establishing the relationships I have with people in real life. And in real life, one on one, semantics are BS.

(in reply to samdarella)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/31/2012 10:47:15 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I make a big deal about titles because during the period of getting to know one another both sides will have their own idea about label they put on themselves but the other party may have a completely different definition but never really talk about the definitions. Many times both will just think they are compatible because their labels match, but never go deeper and ask each other what they feel that means and entails. I've seen it happen dozens of times.

Therefore, I think there should be more common and rigid definitions that everyone holds to be the same so it makes for less confusion and problems.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to subbyincalif)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/31/2012 11:20:57 PM   
subbyincalif


Posts: 3
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I make a big deal about titles because during the period of getting to know one another both sides will have their own idea about label they put on themselves but the other party may have a completely different definition but never really talk about the definitions. Many times both will just think they are compatible because their labels match, but never go deeper and ask each other what they feel that means and entails. I've seen it happen dozens of times.

Therefore, I think there should be more common and rigid definitions that everyone holds to be the same so it makes for less confusion and problems.



That hasn't been my experience at all. In the getting to know stage with a woman, I don't worry about her "label" or my "label." I just talk with her openly and honestly. I am myself, and expect her to be herself.

And franky there will never ever be rigid definitions of terms. And there doesn't need to be.

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/31/2012 11:54:14 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		When I first meet someone online, I have my setttings at seeking a "Dom", not sub, not slave, not switch. If I have decided I want to meet them in person, I'm expecting them to be a Dom, meaning he wants control and authority. If he says he's a dom but turns out his definition of dom is that he takes control....sometimes or only to please me then I am going to walk away with zero interest because we both thought we were on the same page but turns out we both have different views on the word. Very few people from my experience take the time to define their labels in the first getting to know each other online before moving to real life.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to subbyincalif)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 9/1/2012 12:21:50 AM   
BambiBoi


Posts: 461
Joined: 8/10/2010
Status: offline 		Lady Pact-esque disclaimer: I will state opinions as fact because "to me" and "I think" make my writing feel pandered.

The threshold for slavery is very high. Even with devotion that surpasses zealotry, a person is not a slave. Slavery requires a property element. Because the civilized world has outlawed slavery, it's basically impossible to be a slave in legal status. In this regard, many s-types who are extreme in their submission are playing at being slaves. As a matter of convention, I'm fine with that title. I recognize that a BDSM "slave" shares that consensual element that is the legal deal-breaker. It goes without saying. There is a silent "consensual" in front of the word "slave" when used in this lifestyle.

Despite playing fast and loose with the idea of consent, I am a stickler for the level of play a slave must endure to earn that title. Though it goes without saying, I will repeat that there is no shame in being a submissive rather than a slave. I should say I don't like the title of "slave." It should be reserved for only the most extreme relationships, so that the term keeps its strength. When I hear "slave" I want to be unnerved and worried for that person's mental well being. A slave will permanently accept a new owner because their current owner willed it. Not willing to do that? Submissive. No big deal, no hurt feelings, lets get a cappuccino.

_______________________

Slave: See SERVUS: 1: A slave; a human being who was property, and could be bought, sold, pledged, and testated. Black's Law Dictionary 9th Ed.

Slavery: 1: A situation in which one person has absolute power over the life, fortune, and liberty of another. 2: The practice of keeping individuals in such a state of bondage or servitude. Black's Law Dictionary 9th Ed.

Submission: 1: A yielding, or readiness to yield, to the authority or will of another. Black's Law Dictionary 9th Ed.

(I've typed "salve" so many times...)

_____________________________

<3

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 9/1/2012 8:07:01 AM   
Charles6682


Posts: 1820
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline 		I remember a few years ago when I asked this Lady to be my Domme.She accepted and started calling me Her "slave".She kept referring to me as Her slave.Even though in my mind,I was a submissive.Perhaps I shouldn't get so caught up in labels and normally I don't.However,when someone call you their "slave",the wording becomes alittle more personal.I had no objections to calling me Her "slave".I figured it was just a cute way for Her to tell Her friends that She had Her own personal slave.I was quite honored.But I never really saw myself as anyones "slave".I guess the long history of slavery here in America didn't help with that image.

I do realize though that there is a core group of people who take the term "slave" serious.Not in the old idea of "slavery" like back in the 1800's but rather true "consensual" slaves who actually want to live like this.I do believe the laws on slavery are just and fair.No one should ever again be forced into a situation like slavery and have no rights as a human being.That said,I am all for "Consensual Slavery" where all parties are in agreement.And slaves are still human,thus human rights still applies.As for some of the more extreme element who wish to be nothing more than treated as a piece of property,that is their right as well.

1 thing I have constantly learned about my submission is that I am always learning more about who I am.This has been a very interesting way of life.

_____________________________

Charley aka Sub Guy

http://www.Facebook.com/SubGuy

https://Twitter.com/SubGuy6682

(in reply to BambiBoi)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 9/1/2012 9:05:43 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
I'm sorry, it may be my past experiences leaking through, but I'm very by the book, dictionary definitions dependent when it comes to the "slavery" box in my head... and I don't see you as having "subjugated" Carol in any way, shape, or for... so as far as I'm concerned you guys ain't in it.

*chuckles* No need to be sorry. It's the same point I dance on myself. It's why I struggle with the words "command" and "obedience". And hey, it's also what I like. I've come to think I'm an intimacy junky in the same way kinky folk are sex junkies. And yes, that recipe yields different results when authority is applied to it. I think I have the same sort of authority that you'd see in an M/s relationship. But the use to which I turn it and the path I've set us on are fairly different.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 9/1/2012 9:14:26 AM   
txdiamond68


Posts: 19
Joined: 8/13/2012
Status: offline 		I stayed out of this one for a while because it is tough for me to deal with. I am a slave without an owner. My owner decided he needed a second girl in his life, and eventually she replaced me. She is NOT a slave, hell she isn't even submissive to him in any way. But when I thought it was in my best interest to step up and let him know I was still his slave, he decided he didn't really need/want me. So he let me go. (As clarification, I was offered a choice: Stay and watch him love her, or leave and be without him.)

Understand that I do not remotely consider myself a submissive. I have no innate sense of wanting to please just anyone and everyone, however my OWNER was an exception. I would have laughed in the face of someone who asked me to do the things he did... but I did them for him.

The question I have to ask myself now, of course is this: Will I ever do that again? Will I ever be emotionally able to put myself in a position where I give everything I am to one person, trusting them to not toss me out when someone 'better' comes along? I'm not sure. Time will tell.

For me, that is being a slave.

(in reply to Charles6682)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 9/1/2012 10:12:49 AM   
seekingreality


Posts: 599
Joined: 8/11/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

When I first meet someone online, I have my setttings at seeking a "Dom", not sub, not slave, not switch. If I have decided I want to meet them in person, I'm expecting them to be a Dom, meaning he wants control and authority. If he says he's a dom but turns out his definition of dom is that he takes control....sometimes or only to please me then I am going to walk away with zero interest because we both thought we were on the same page but turns out we both have different views on the word. Very few people from my experience take the time to define their labels in the first getting to know each other online before moving to real life.


Personally, I just see online as a place to generally vet whether I find someone attractive and interesting enough to meet. I accept -- whether in a BDSM or vanilla meeting -- you can never entirely vet someone in advance, and a lot of people won't mesh with me. That's life. To me, labels are knowing more than very broad classifications. You will never get the details of a person from a label.

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 9/1/2012 12:17:52 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		When I'm single I never call myself a slave. There's no Master to be a slave to. When I'm single I'm just a submissive personality who goes by my real name. To me, if you are not owned by someone you call Master, then I wonder why someone would call themselves a slave.



_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to seekingreality)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 9/1/2012 12:56:39 PM   
Charles6682


Posts: 1820
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline 		@littlewonder Perhaps that how I view it.It is hard to call myself a slave if I am not even owned by anyone.I certainly would still consider myself a submissive because my submissive nature doesn't just go away.It is a very big part of who I am.Maybe the most inmportant part to who I am.But until I am actually "owned" by the right Domme,I guess it is alittle much to say I am a slave.Now,if I do meet the right Domme and everything works out,then that is a different story.

_____________________________

Charley aka Sub Guy

http://www.Facebook.com/SubGuy

https://Twitter.com/SubGuy6682

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109