RE: You DID build that.... (Full Version)

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stellauk -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/30/2012 8:55:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

Obama certainly is a Marxist-collectivist. There are many other hints beside "you did not build that" as well. Rich vs. poor class war is a constant theme in his public appearances. It is not the basic problem Obama has though. I would give him some credit if he acted according to his belief system and showed at least a tiny bit leadership. He is a corporate whore, and this is bad, bad. 93% of Obama "recovery" all income growth has been picked up by the top 1%, and it tells all the story. Whatever he said or said not is largely irrelevant.


Oh please. If you've got yourself here to post the above then I'm sure you've heard about search engines like Google and even sites like Wikipedia.

Shouldn't take you much more than five minutes to acquaint yourself with the terms you are actually using like Marxist and collectivist.





Yachtie -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/30/2012 8:58:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

It's the Marxist / socialist concept.


You really have no concept of what either of those terms mean.



But I'm sure you do, comrade.




Yachtie -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/30/2012 8:59:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
But Mr. Jones does owe the rest of society a reasonable proportion of his income to maintain what the society provides to him so his business may prosper which is the point the President was making.


That's hysterical as one man's reasonable is another man's tyranny. [8D]

Business is really prospering under Obama, isn't it! /s

Are you saying business should not pay taxes to support the creation and maintenance of the infrastructure and services they rely upon?




What do you think?[8|]




servantforuse -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/30/2012 9:10:44 PM)

After Ryan last night and Romney tonight, the Obama camp will be scrambling. It is the economy, and they will have to defend the last four years. Not an easy task.




stellauk -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/30/2012 10:41:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

It's the Marxist / socialist concept.



Really? Well then, please explain to me how you are able to succeed in either a capitalist system or a free market economy without the involvement of other people.




Lucylastic -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/30/2012 11:17:25 PM)

rugged individualism is like saying _______________________________ is 8 inches




DomKen -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/31/2012 2:40:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
But Mr. Jones does owe the rest of society a reasonable proportion of his income to maintain what the society provides to him so his business may prosper which is the point the President was making.


That's hysterical as one man's reasonable is another man's tyranny. [8D]

Business is really prospering under Obama, isn't it! /s

Are you saying business should not pay taxes to support the creation and maintenance of the infrastructure and services they rely upon?




What do you think?[8|]

I have no idea what you think, that's why I asked.




DesideriScuri -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/31/2012 3:13:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
You, the community, built that... not you, Mr Jones who owns the donut shop.

Yes, the community built that through tax dollars. And, all that is available for everyone to use. Just because Mr. Jones decided to take a risk with his Donut Shop and Mr. Smith didn't, doesn't mean Mr. Jones owes Mr. Smith anything.
There are shitloads of roads, bridges, etc. out there. Anyone who wants to take the risk of starting a business, building that business, and making all the sacrifices most businesspeople take, so be it. they get to reap the same benefits, if their idea and business model is good. Colonel Sanders doesn't owe me a damn thing since he had the drive, determination and made the sacrifices and I have not.

But Mr. Jones does owe the rest of society a reasonable proportion of his income to maintain what the society provides to him so his business may prosper which is the point the President was making.


Society isn't providing it to him. He helped pay for that stuff. He continues to pay for that stuff. He probably ends up paying more than others. I don't care about % of income garbage. The only time that matters is when it can make someone's shitty point. Roads are built and maintained in dollars, not %'s. That is a great argument, btw, for a flat tax, so that everyone is paying a reasonable proportion of his/her income.

And, while we're at it, are businesses the only one's prospering from the infrastructure? Think about what the business gives back to start with. Does a business pay taxes (on it's supplies not going into their product, they absolutely do)? Does a business employ? Does a business provide a service or good that might otherwise not be there, or might be there at a higher cost?

You can make all the arguments you want about all the people who helped Mr. Jones not getting paid enough. That's not for you to decide, though. Unless this was a case of mandatory work, slavery, or other forced servitude, those people all accepted their jobs at the pay rates they got. Does a high school teacher deserve more credit for teaching Bill Gates than a high school teacher gets paid for teaching me, or you, or anyone else who hasn't built a ridiculously successful business?

Penalize the successful. Not exactly a great incentive to get ahead.




tazzygirl -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/31/2012 8:35:18 AM)

quote:

Society isn't providing it to him. He helped pay for that stuff. He continues to pay for that stuff. He probably ends up paying more than others.


Did he pay for the whole thing all by his lonesome? Then no, he didnt build that.

quote:

Does a high school teacher deserve more credit for teaching Bill Gates than a high school teacher gets paid for teaching me, or you, or anyone else who hasn't built a ridiculously successful business?


Personally, we dont pay our teachers enough for what they do teach.

Obama's point is simple... no one has done it alone.




graceadieu -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/31/2012 10:39:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

Obama certainly is a Marxist-collectivist.


Are you serious? He said that in order to have lots of successful businesses, we need to have public education, infrastructure, law enforcement etc. How on Earth is that a Marxist position? The only position to the right of that is hardcore libertarianism. If that's Marxism, than Ronald Reagan and George Bush were both straight-up Commies too.




Musicmystery -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/31/2012 10:41:35 AM)

A rare moment of truth at the RNC:

[image]https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/424589_424795470891293_1998072463_n.jpg[/image]




Restyles -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/31/2012 10:45:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You... the collective you... anyone who pays taxes... not the business owner alone.


The business owner created the jobs for the others who paid taxes. lookie is totally correct, and it was well said.




Musicmystery -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/31/2012 10:49:58 AM)

Gosh, so you mean, it's all of us working together, from business to jobs to tax revenue to infrastructure to business opportunities?

Just like the man said, instead of this child's game?




tazzygirl -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/31/2012 10:50:00 AM)

And the employees ran the business that made his money.

And the teachers gave him the skills he uses for that business.

And the banks gave him the loans.

And the community gives him the patronage.

If he "built it himself" he wouldnt need any of those people.




DomKen -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/31/2012 11:58:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
You, the community, built that... not you, Mr Jones who owns the donut shop.

Yes, the community built that through tax dollars. And, all that is available for everyone to use. Just because Mr. Jones decided to take a risk with his Donut Shop and Mr. Smith didn't, doesn't mean Mr. Jones owes Mr. Smith anything.
There are shitloads of roads, bridges, etc. out there. Anyone who wants to take the risk of starting a business, building that business, and making all the sacrifices most businesspeople take, so be it. they get to reap the same benefits, if their idea and business model is good. Colonel Sanders doesn't owe me a damn thing since he had the drive, determination and made the sacrifices and I have not.

But Mr. Jones does owe the rest of society a reasonable proportion of his income to maintain what the society provides to him so his business may prosper which is the point the President was making.


Society isn't providing it to him. He helped pay for that stuff. He continues to pay for that stuff. He probably ends up paying more than others. I don't care about % of income garbage. The only time that matters is when it can make someone's shitty point. Roads are built and maintained in dollars, not %'s. That is a great argument, btw, for a flat tax, so that everyone is paying a reasonable proportion of his/her income.

Yes, society IS providing it to him. There is no way he could have built it all himself. He should pay more tham most others as a business owner he makes more use of the infrastructure and other services. I need police and fire protection for myself nd my home. A business owner need those same services for his person, personal property and his business assets.

quote:

And, while we're at it, are businesses the only one's prospering from the infrastructure? Think about what the business gives back to start with. Does a business pay taxes (on it's supplies not going into their product, they absolutely do)? Does a business employ? Does a business provide a service or good that might otherwise not be there, or might be there at a higher cost?

You may have noticed but back when the US tax policy worked we did provide reasonable deductions for business expenses. No one is arguing that business owners and other wealthy individuals be taxed into poverty, yet, but that they simply pay their fair share. However the longer things continue as they are now the more likely we will see a violent revolt and those never turn out well for those that think they're on top.




DesideriScuri -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/31/2012 12:31:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

Society isn't providing it to him. He helped pay for that stuff. He continues to pay for that stuff. He probably ends up paying more than others.

Did he pay for the whole thing all by his lonesome? Then no, he didnt build that.


Not arguing that, but take a business owner and one of his employees and stand them side by side. Which one of them took the risk to start and run a business, and which one didn't? Which one saw the worth of the public infrastructure and took advantage of it, and which one didn't? Is it the business owner's fault that non-owners didn't decide to take the same risks he/she took? No. Not in the least. Does he/she owe anything more than anyone else because of the infrastructure? No, unless he/she uses more, in which case, he/she probably already does pay more. Face it, the public infrastructure is there for the public. It isn't there solely for certain people to run businesses. It's there for anyone to take advantage of. That some do and the rest don't isn't going to be fixed by punishing those that do and succeed.

quote:

quote:

Does a high school teacher deserve more credit for teaching Bill Gates than a high school teacher gets paid for teaching me, or you, or anyone else who hasn't built a ridiculously successful business?

Personally, we dont pay our teachers enough for what they do teach.


Didn't answer the question, and I'll disagree with you on this, too. We pay teachers plenty for their teaching. Why teachers are underpaid isn't because of the demands of teaching, but the demands of all the other shit that is dumped onto teachers. Parental involvement is low in the lower socioeconomic circles. If we had more involved parents actually parenting (instead of leaving the parenting, feeding, etc. of the kids to the School District), there would be so much less stress on teachers and budgets. Instead of manning up and taking care of our li'l ones, we are leaving that to a teacher who has 20-30 of these to parent. And, there's also the teaching thing when they can manage to work that in.

quote:


Obama's point is simple... no one has done it alone.


http://www.businessknowhow.com/startup/business-failure.htm

    quote:

    According to statistics published by the Small Business Administration (SBA), seven out of ten new employer establishments survive at least two years and 51 percent survive at least five years.


It is clear that some people didn't build that.




tazzygirl -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/31/2012 1:03:21 PM)

quote:

Not arguing that, but take a business owner and one of his employees and stand them side by side. Which one of them took the risk to start and run a business, and which one didn't?


Which one took the risk that the owner new what he was doing? If his business goes bust, he declares bankruptcy and moves on. The employee is out of a job.

quote:

Which one saw the worth of the public infrastructure and took advantage of it, and which one didn't?


Now you are getting somewhere. Everyone benefits from the infrastructure. Everyone pays for that infrastructure. But some businesses benefit from it more than others. The North Shore Connector here is a perfect example.

quote:

Is it the business owner's fault that non-owners didn't decide to take the same risks he/she took? No. Not in the least.


Risks have their rewards.. and their punishments.. just like everything else in life.

quote:

Does he/she owe anything more than anyone else because of the infrastructure?


Depending on where the infrastructure is, they can, in fact, own a larger segment of access to the market. The connector here was built to run by PNC Park, Heinz Field, and Rivers Casino. In those businesses defense, they are providing free rides from the North Shore to downtown for the next three years. 2.50 a pop... not much... but it can seem like a lot when you are making minimum. And, yes, it benefits the business as well.

And this is a perfect example of a business that didnt have to do this. Its a gesture to give back to the community in exchange for the over run of the cost of building it. 80% of the funding came from federal... 537 million was the last figure I heard. It benefits a small segment of workers from the very far north reaches of the county that ride in on two bus routes. For everyone else, unless they are gamblers or going to the games, they get no benefit from the cost.

I can assure you the games and the casino are reaping huge benefits.

quote:

Face it, the public infrastructure is there for the public. It isn't there solely for certain people to run businesses. It's there for anyone to take advantage of. That some do and the rest don't isn't going to be fixed by punishing those that do and succeed.


The community at large here paid 20% of the cost. And about 20% utilize the free service because of its destination and the route it takes. The rest is strictly for the businesses in that area. Want to try that again?

quote:

It is clear that some people didn't build that.


Having helped my employer build his business, I do know something about this. He had the concept.. and the business knowledge. He also had the backing of many from his social and business circles. (He didnt do the financing alone). He had a staff that wanted to see him succeed because we needed to succeed (He couldnt possibly serve every table, cook every meal and make a success of his business without us). He had his supplies flown (sushi) or shipped in, requiring the suppliers and delivery personnel. The city came through and redesigned the street in front, affording him to now install an outdoor seating area that was not previously available. His staff, us, worked hard through word of mouth to build his business (we all carried his business cards and talked up the fantastic selling points of his business). He hired great restaurant managers who had fantastic contacts in the beer and wine industry and our bartenders were fantastic in coming up with some of the most unusual of drinks. Many of those employees have been in the local restaurant business for years and have worked at other places. Once they started talking up the new business, their contacts started coming in, pumping money into the business. The food critics come in from time to time, the papers write reviews. Cooks work their magic, servers have their own.. and we quickly got rid of anyone who could not carry the load. Treating the customer as king takes a special skill.

George acknowledges he didnt build his business by himself. Nor did we build it for him. Its a group effort. Very few small businesses are not service oriented. Hire the wrong crew and the business will fail.

A good business owner knows his limitations and puts some faith into others. No one built a business alone. No matter how much you want that fantasy to be true.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/31/2012 3:45:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

I know that Obama didn't mean what he said when he said "that".

I know that what he meant was...."the government built all that stuff,you paid for it and so, you (indeed) benefited from that" and he's right....except for one thing:

We (you) paid for that. All of our taxes went towards "that". Every bridge and road was paid for by you....and me.

I know the GOP has raked that phrase over and over again but....

The fact is....you did build that.

You paid for that....in every dime of taxes you paid for and....that was without question....YOUR efforts, even as you may have never lifted a shovel.

Yes, it was the government that caused it to happen and frankly...had you not paid taxes....there'd have been a LOT fewer roads and bridges built but.....

YOU (did) buil(d) that.

You did.




no you do not benefit from it if you paid for it any more than you benefit from them charging you taxes for cigarettes.

Now if they paid for it out of their own pockets and you had usufructory privileges thats another story.

trustees in the gubafia that you are the grantor/settlor are not a benefit in that sense, but you are in the sense that you pay them a fee for their trustee duties to manage it for you.

For the building of it no.



Uhhhhmmmm....last I checked....everyone (you included) benefits from cigarette taxes....and every other tax.

Roads, sewers, stop lights, sidewalks....none would have been built (by...you...and your friends) if not for taxes paid for by......

Here it comes.....

Wait for it.....

It's almost here.....


YOU.




subrob1967 -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/31/2012 4:22:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Not arguing that, but take a business owner and one of his employees and stand them side by side. Which one of them took the risk to start and run a business, and which one didn't?


Which one took the risk that the owner new what he was doing? If his business goes bust, he declares bankruptcy and moves on. The employee is out of a job.

quote:

Which one saw the worth of the public infrastructure and took advantage of it, and which one didn't?


Now you are getting somewhere. Everyone benefits from the infrastructure. Everyone pays for that infrastructure. But some businesses benefit from it more than others. The North Shore Connector here is a perfect example.

quote:

Is it the business owner's fault that non-owners didn't decide to take the same risks he/she took? No. Not in the least.


Risks have their rewards.. and their punishments.. just like everything else in life.

quote:

Does he/she owe anything more than anyone else because of the infrastructure?


Depending on where the infrastructure is, they can, in fact, own a larger segment of access to the market. The connector here was built to run by PNC Park, Heinz Field, and Rivers Casino. In those businesses defense, they are providing free rides from the North Shore to downtown for the next three years. 2.50 a pop... not much... but it can seem like a lot when you are making minimum. And, yes, it benefits the business as well.

And this is a perfect example of a business that didnt have to do this. Its a gesture to give back to the community in exchange for the over run of the cost of building it. 80% of the funding came from federal... 537 million was the last figure I heard. It benefits a small segment of workers from the very far north reaches of the county that ride in on two bus routes. For everyone else, unless they are gamblers or going to the games, they get no benefit from the cost.

I can assure you the games and the casino are reaping huge benefits.

quote:

Face it, the public infrastructure is there for the public. It isn't there solely for certain people to run businesses. It's there for anyone to take advantage of. That some do and the rest don't isn't going to be fixed by punishing those that do and succeed.


The community at large here paid 20% of the cost. And about 20% utilize the free service because of its destination and the route it takes. The rest is strictly for the businesses in that area. Want to try that again?

quote:

It is clear that some people didn't build that.


Having helped my employer build his business, I do know something about this. He had the concept.. and the business knowledge. He also had the backing of many from his social and business circles. (He didnt do the financing alone). He had a staff that wanted to see him succeed because we needed to succeed (He couldnt possibly serve every table, cook every meal and make a success of his business without us). He had his supplies flown (sushi) or shipped in, requiring the suppliers and delivery personnel. The city came through and redesigned the street in front, affording him to now install an outdoor seating area that was not previously available. His staff, us, worked hard through word of mouth to build his business (we all carried his business cards and talked up the fantastic selling points of his business). He hired great restaurant managers who had fantastic contacts in the beer and wine industry and our bartenders were fantastic in coming up with some of the most unusual of drinks. Many of those employees have been in the local restaurant business for years and have worked at other places. Once they started talking up the new business, their contacts started coming in, pumping money into the business. The food critics come in from time to time, the papers write reviews. Cooks work their magic, servers have their own.. and we quickly got rid of anyone who could not carry the load. Treating the customer as king takes a special skill.

George acknowledges he didnt build his business by himself. Nor did we build it for him. Its a group effort. Very few small businesses are not service oriented. Hire the wrong crew and the business will fail.

A good business owner knows his limitations and puts some faith into others. No one built a business alone. No matter how much you want that fantasy to be true.



And in the end it was his plan, his concept, his reputation, his negotiating skills, and ultimately his risk.

Employees get paid to work there, and if not, they go to work for someone else.
The infrastructure wasn't there when Las Vegas started, that was all Benny Segal.
The teachers were paid to teach him the skills, they didn't do it for free.
The Banks made money on his loans.
The community decides to eat at his establishment, and if the food sucks, they take their business elsewhere. The community is fickle, one day your business is top dog, then Gordon Ramsay opens his establishment across the street, and the next thing you know, you can't rely on the community for shit.

Bottom line here is the owner risks everything, the employees risk having to find a new job... So yeah HE did build that.




mnottertail -> RE: You DID build that.... (8/31/2012 4:24:35 PM)

There aint no somewhere else to work.   So, the rest becomes an epic fail.




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