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RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/2/2012 10:30:20 AM   
Moonlightmaddnes


Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline 		LOL I despise politics, in fact this year I am completely ignoring the election. OH I did vote since our sheriff election was up this year and I wanted to make sure our dirty as shit sheriff was not not re elected but other then that I have not paid any attention. Just a hint I am in Missouri with Todd akin running! UHG I hate politics. When the news turns to politics I turn the damn thing off.

I pulled a Bill Cosby the other night during the RNC. Every channel I turned to had it on and I remembered his skit from one of his comedy shows. "It's on every channel!!!"

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/2/2012 2:58:34 PM   
GotSteel


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Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes
I dont know, I had a girl but I heard you are really pressured to circumcise. Nope no pressure from my husband. He is rather chill about it. And yes the biggest thing we have thought of is if we have a boy will we circumcise. Personally we are not sure if we will or not, but then again I am only 4 months and will not know for a bit if we are having a boy or a girl. But the article was about german court not my decision. But I do not want to hear a bunch of pressure from medical professionals to go one way or another when the AAP itself says the only benefit is STD protection and should not be routinely done.


If you're firmly against it and your not getting family pressure I'm not sure what the big deal is? It should be really easy to turn down that procedure, if it's not tell them you want a different nurse. Heck say it's against your religion, that's a real trump card.


(in reply to Moonlightmaddnes)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/2/2012 7:01:35 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline 		LOL I give up. * head desk* I posted an article about the german court ruling it is assault for Jewish parent to circumcise. I do not think anyone actually read the article since it is about german court ruling against Jewish religious custom. I am not Jewish but found it interesting. It is not about me or my beliefs, I simply repeated things I have heard in other debates and comments on you tube about it.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/2/2012 7:56:23 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

I dont know, I had a girl but I heard you are really pressured to circumcise. Nope no pressure from my husband. He is rather chill about it. And yes the biggest thing we have thought of is if we have a boy will we circumcise. Personally we are not sure if we will or not, but then again I am only 4 months and will not know for a bit if we are having a boy or a girl. But the article was about german court not my decision. But I do not want to hear a bunch of pressure from medical professionals to go one way or another when the AAP itself says the only benefit is STD protection and should not be routinely done.



The only thing that I can think of that the medical community puts on the pressure for is vaccinations. Who will be this baby's primary doctor? Have you voiced your concerns (indecision) with them? You should.

Last time I checked it was 16 weeks for ding-a-lings to show. However I do not recommend unnecessary ultrasounds. And I am highly opposed to vanity ultrasounds.

To help you keep things in perspective, as a mother of two preemies, one that had to be transfered to a NICU at a different hospital, if to or to not circumcise is your biggest worry with this pregnancy, you are doing GREAT!


quote:

But I found this on a parenting board I am on and OMG the fight can be one when this topic comes up there. There are moms there that feel this is child abuse then the moms who had it done get offended. One of my friends has two boys. I asked her today and she told me they put a cream on her boys then gave them a shot, she was there the entire time and they slept through it. So I am not actually worried about the pain if I have a boy.


How to say this nicely. . .

Screw the parenting boards and what other mommies think.

YOU get to decide what things that you want to do. There is NO one twue way for parenting that will give your child the perfect upbringing.

Breast-feed or formula?
Co-sleeping or not?
Day care or stay at home?
Homemade baby food or store bought?
Organic apple juice or frozen?
Circumcision or not?

The list goes on and everyone and their dog has an opinion. Just pick a direction and go with it. Love and attention are the only important things. The rest is optional.

Oh! Congrats, by the way!

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Moonlightmaddnes)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/2/2012 8:26:36 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

From a medical standpoint (since we arent speaking of religion here), what complications may arise from a male not having a circumcision and what complications, medically, may arise from a female not having one?


You're the one that brought up your qualifications. Feel free to educate. Last I checked, no physiological complications were known to result from delaying circumcision until later in life, unless necessary (e.g. difficulties retracting, etc.). By contrast, it carries a certain rate of complications to do it early in life that is lower later in life.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/2/2012 8:34:38 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Hmmm.. did you misunderstand the question?

Allow me to try again. What complications would a female have that would ever warrant a female circumcision?

What complications would a male have to warrant a male circumcision?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/2/2012 8:45:26 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

I dont know, I had a girl but I heard you are really pressured to circumcise. Nope no pressure from my husband. He is rather chill about it. And yes the biggest thing we have thought of is if we have a boy will we circumcise. Personally we are not sure if we will or not, but then again I am only 4 months and will not know for a bit if we are having a boy or a girl. But the article was about german court not my decision. But I do not want to hear a bunch of pressure from medical professionals to go one way or another when the AAP itself says the only benefit is STD protection and should not be routinely done.



The only thing that I can think of that the medical community puts on the pressure for is vaccinations. Who will be this baby's primary doctor? Have you voiced your concerns (indecision) with them? You should.

Last time I checked it was 16 weeks for ding-a-lings to show. However I do not recommend unnecessary ultrasounds. And I am highly opposed to vanity ultrasounds.

To help you keep things in perspective, as a mother of two preemies, one that had to be transfered to a NICU at a different hospital, if to or to not circumcise is your biggest worry with this pregnancy, you are doing GREAT!


quote:

But I found this on a parenting board I am on and OMG the fight can be one when this topic comes up there. There are moms there that feel this is child abuse then the moms who had it done get offended. One of my friends has two boys. I asked her today and she told me they put a cream on her boys then gave them a shot, she was there the entire time and they slept through it. So I am not actually worried about the pain if I have a boy.


How to say this nicely. . .

Screw the parenting boards and what other mommies think.

YOU get to decide what things that you want to do. There is NO one twue way for parenting that will give your child the perfect upbringing.

Breast-feed or formula?
Co-sleeping or not?
Day care or stay at home?
Homemade baby food or store bought?
Organic apple juice or frozen?
Circumcision or not?

The list goes on and everyone and their dog has an opinion. Just pick a direction and go with it. Love and attention are the only important things. The rest is optional.

Oh! Congrats, by the way!



Oh yes, I have my made up my mind on a great many things, the thing is I do not like debating. I research and look at the pros vs cons but I dont like arguing. I do not mind having conversations but sadly so many these days do not know how to do that without attacking so I dont bother. I was very pro breastfeeding with my daughter but still I got my hackles up when other moms who breastfed would attack moms who bottle fed. It is their right to feed their baby as they want to even if the reason is breastfeeding grosses them out. I have dear friends who circumcised and others who flat out think it is abuse. Both are entitled to their opinion but I will not argue with them.

quote:

Last time I checked it was 16 weeks for ding-a-lings to show. However I do not recommend unnecessary ultrasounds. And I am highly opposed to vanity ultrasounds.

To help you keep things in perspective, as a mother of two preemies, one that had to be transfered to a NICU at a different hospital, if to or to not circumcise is your biggest worry with this pregnancy, you are doing GREAT!


yeah I was 16 weeks when they did the ultra sound on my daughter and I found out I was having a girl, but this new OB waits until 20 weeks.

So far knock on wood I have never had any trouble. I go full term and deliver very fast without complications. Here's to hoping this one is the same.

Thanks for the congrats. We are thrilled, we had actually given up thinking my surgery in 2005 had created scar tissue making another baby impossible when surprise.



quote:

Last I checked, no physiological complications were known to result from delaying circumcision until later in life, unless necessary (e.g. difficulties retracting, etc.). By contrast, it carries a certain rate of complications to do it early in life that is lower later in life.


While researching online I did see several times that if you wait until after a boy is 3 they will put them to sleep and there will not be an open wound sitting in a diaper which means it will not burn when they pee. Although I cannot imagine them holding a terrified 2 year old boy still while they cut him. I know they put two year olds to sleep safely since my daughter had to be put to sleep for some dental work at 2. So if we do I do not think we will do it when he is a newborn if I have a boy.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/2/2012 9:27:29 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Hmmm.. did you misunderstand the question?


Yes. Thank you for trying again.

As far as I know, both genders can have medical reasons for that type of circumcision. For instance frenulum issues in a man that can cause problems retracting the foreskin, scarring and so forth. In women, I am only aware of sensitivity issues, but it's hardly my field. Objective medical reasons necessitating the procedure in an individual are a seperate issue from theoretical benefits- which have not been demonstrated- used to rationalize carrying out the procedure for entirely different reasons in a child with no medical problem in need of correction. Particularly when the cost/benefit analysis is so blatantly against the latter.

My objection is to an irreversible change with known drawbacks being done on a routine basis to infants with no need for it, despite a lack of evidence of benefits. If and when there's a need for it, either on solid indication or electively when old enough to weigh the risks and benefits and arrive at one's own decision, that becomes a different matter entirely.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/2/2012 9:37:04 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Hmmm.. did you misunderstand the question?


Yes. Thank you for trying again.

As far as I know, both genders can have medical reasons for that type of circumcision. For instance frenulum issues in a man that can cause problems retracting the foreskin, scarring and so forth. In women, I am only aware of sensitivity issues, but it's hardly my field. Objective medical reasons necessitating the procedure in an individual are a seperate issue from theoretical benefits- which have not been demonstrated- used to rationalize carrying out the procedure for entirely different reasons in a child with no medical problem in need of correction. Particularly when the cost/benefit analysis is so blatantly against the latter.

My objection is to an irreversible change with known drawbacks being done on a routine basis to infants with no need for it, despite a lack of evidence of benefits. If and when there's a need for it, either on solid indication or electively when old enough to weigh the risks and benefits and arrive at one's own decision, that becomes a different matter entirely.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




And your suggestion is that we wait till they are sexually mature... around 12.. before having this procedure performed. Am I correct in your position?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/2/2012 9:57:39 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline
quote:

My objection is to an irreversible change with known drawbacks being done on a routine basis to infants with no need for it, despite a lack of evidence of benefits. If and when there's a need for it, either on solid indication or electively when old enough to weigh the risks and benefits and arrive at one's own decision, that becomes a different matter entirely.


I read in one article circumcision came back into practice in the 1930's to reduce the sexual pleasure for a man and try and stop masturbation.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/2/2012 10:01:05 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		NOHARM is not what I would call a reliable source.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Moonlightmaddnes)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/2/2012 10:22:03 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline 		yes one must be careful and consider the source on so many things. I was nearly terrified into skipping vaccinations for my baby girl by an anti vax web page. Another one for hospital vs home birth had hospitals pinned as greedy butcher factories that did something called birth rape by forcing women to have procedures done to them. The lady who wrote that one said she would rather take a blanket to a field in the middle of a blizzard then to ever have a baby in a hospital. I read that and was like HUH?? I had an awesome experience at the hospital having my DD. Nothing was done that I did not consent to and everyone around me was awesome. The nurses even took pictures for me so we could have our very first family pictures as soon as my daughter was handed back to me.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/2/2012 10:24:47 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Amazing how many of those sites distort the truth, huh.

http://www.menshealth.co.uk/community/forums/thread/468664

Here is a link you might find interesting about circumcisions in adulthood. Since is a mixture of experiences, not just one sided, I thought you might be curious enough to read it. I found it interesting how many of the men stated sex was no different afterwards.

But its all subjective.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Moonlightmaddnes)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/2/2012 10:36:54 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline 		Yeah they do. I am apart of a natural parenting message board because I do love some aspects of it, but others make me roll my eyes at them. Vaccinations is one of them. I am completely in the closet there that my daughter is fully vaccinated. I would be skinned alive if they knew and that I planned to fully vaccinate this child too. Doctors especially OB's and pediatricians are evil to some of them. In their eyes they are greedy only looking to do the most invasive procedures to get more surgery and therefore money. LOL my ob made it clear he avoids c sects if possible so either I live in a bubble or they are out of touch.

Thanks for the link I will read it when I get a chance.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/2/2012 10:54:41 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		You are your child's advocate. I had mine circumcised, but I also know the complications later in life he could have faced. My OB Dr performed it while I watched. If you want to know who is the best to do any procedure, ask your nurse... ask all of your nurses. They know who is the best at what.

If you feel like waiting, then by all means, wait.

As far as the vaccination issue, the Lancet pulled the article that started it all.

http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/news/20100202/study-linking-autism-to-vaccine-retracted

I can understand parents wanting to blame others for the autism their children have. The way Wakefield went about it was all wrong.

Your best bet, when dealing with conflicting information is research, research, research. Bypass the blogs and hit the medical sites. The benefits of vaccinations outweigh the risks.

http://kidshealth.org/parent/infections/bacterial_viral/polio.html



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Moonlightmaddnes)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/3/2012 5:36:11 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

LOL I give up. * head desk* I posted an article about the german court ruling it is assault for Jewish parent to circumcise. I do not think anyone actually read the article since it is about german court ruling against Jewish religious custom. I am not Jewish but found it interesting. It is not about me or my beliefs, I simply repeated things I have heard in other debates and comments on you tube about it.


Because it is old news. And if I recall correctly, the case actually dealt with a Muslim family.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Moonlightmaddnes)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/3/2012 5:38:36 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

My OB Dr performed it while I watched. If you want to know who is the best to do any procedure, ask your nurse... ask all of your nurses. They know who is the best at what.


I wondered who normally did them. The OBGYN or the PCP. Thanks!

quote:

I can understand parents wanting to blame others for the autism their children have. The way Wakefield went about it was all wrong.


And that is why I just blame you. So much easier that way.

quote:

The benefits of vaccinations outweigh the risks.



No kidding.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/3/2012 7:19:29 AM   
Moonlightmaddnes


Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

LOL I give up. * head desk* I posted an article about the german court ruling it is assault for Jewish parent to circumcise. I do not think anyone actually read the article since it is about german court ruling against Jewish religious custom. I am not Jewish but found it interesting. It is not about me or my beliefs, I simply repeated things I have heard in other debates and comments on you tube about it.


Because it is old news. And if I recall correctly, the case actually dealt with a Muslim family.



You know even here in my tiny little town I am always the last to know anything. I will tell my husband something I heard and he will look at me shocked and say I heard that weeks ago.. LOL

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/3/2012 12:11:40 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And your suggestion is that we wait till they are sexually mature... around 12.. before having this procedure performed. Am I correct in your position?


I will restate a line from my post:

quote:

when old enough to weigh the risks and benefits and arrive at one's own decision


That's my preference. Maturity is more of an absolute minimum delay, founded on the idea that all the supposed benefits are of no relevance until the onset of sexual activity, which a person doesn't generally engage in until maturity at the earliest. This is not to say I think one can make a good decision at that point, only that it definitely shouldn't happen before that unless necessary. I have a strong preference that it be put off until one is actually old enough to make good decisions about elective procedures, which I think we can agree is usually later still.

I can see how I could have given the other impression earlier. Mea culpa.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: German court rules circumcision is assult - 9/3/2012 12:51:29 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		http://www.menshealth.co.uk/community/forums/thread/468664

I read through about half of those... pain levels differed.... didnt find one stating the sexual act itself was diminished or that they lost sensation.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 60
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