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looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 1:16:47 AM

eXferret

Posts: 2
Joined: 8/12/2012
Status: offline

Hi, I'm kinda of in a pickle.

I have a sub client asking for a very extreme request.
He could potentially get very very hurt hurt. I have done sessions with excessive force, with out problem, safe words and all that. But this one wants absolute no mercy. Black,Blue,Red. Potentially hospitalized
Very adamant about this.

I wanted to inquire if anyone has a sample agreement/waiver they could possibly show me
or guide me in making one prior to the sessions with my client.

Any and all advice/comments
appreciated

Post #: 1

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 1:20:00 AM

BambiBoi

Posts: 461
Joined: 8/10/2010
Status: offline

Walk away from this one, Champ.

___________________________
Edit to Add:

With such a high risk of serious bodily injury, you would be foolhearty to think that a liability release in a borderline illegal act is going to protect you. Normally, the legality of professional dominas doesn't come up. No ones going to the police with a few scratches. If you admit someone to the hospital and they say "I paid her to do this to me..." Well, it's highway time. I hear Afghanistan is still non-extradition.

But in reality, compare your possible gains to the possible losses. Is less dangerous play available? Can you replace physical pain with emotional pain/humiliation?

I stand by my first response. Don't touch this one.

< Message edited by BambiBoi -- 9/1/2012 1:48:46 AM >

_____________________________

<3

(in reply to eXferret)

Post #: 2

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 1:39:55 AM

UllrsIshtar

Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline

What Bambi said... especially seeing that it's a client and not your actual relationship.
You don't have a stake in this, except financially... which means your main consideration should be the financial compensation versus the assumed risk... which means that the risk/reward is most likely unfeasible low.

Consider how high the likelihood is of you having to admit him to a hospital, which could mean almost guaranteed jail time.
Think of how much would you need to charge him to compensate for you taking the risk of that likelihood of you going to jail for a period of time. If there is even a relatively small chance... say 5% of you going to jail for 6 months over this, the scene would rapidly become prohibitively expensive, because at that point your price calculation should reasonable be something akin to 1-5 times your expected wages for a 6 month period. This is because you're not only compensating for the assumed risk of lost income, but also the social stigma and future issues you will have once you have a criminal record for assault.

If the risk is even a little higher, or the potential jail time longer, that figure would go up exponentially.

If there is a serious enough risk of you going to jail over this that you feel you need a waiver to defend yourself in court, your client really should pay you a starting rate of about 50k for this session (at least for me, based on what my time is worth to me). If he's not paying that, I wouldn't even think about it.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 9/1/2012 2:08:01 AM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to BambiBoi)

Post #: 3

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 1:55:51 AM

slowsweetkill

Posts: 1
Joined: 2/12/2012
Status: offline

I agree to an extent with UllrsIshtar. They raise some good points.

I have sent a comment to you, exFerret, off forum.

Miss Ss Kill

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

Post #: 4

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 2:40:41 AM

eXferret

Posts: 2
Joined: 8/12/2012
Status: offline

thank you for all :)

(in reply to slowsweetkill)

Post #: 5

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 2:45:37 AM

PerfectSurrender

Posts: 22
Joined: 1/29/2006
From: Saint Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline

The other posters here have covered the issue of your liability but I think there's a much more important issue here.

I find it somewhat dismaying that your question primarily concerns waivers. If the kind of physical harm you're contemplating is as severe as you imply then
you have concerns equal to if not greater than your own liability.

Meaning, specifically, the well-being of another human being and whether or not you're dealing with someone that is mentally unstable.
You haven't given specifics but potential hospitalization is extreme and I'm sharing based on that.

Just because you can watch it on the internet or someone says "yes" does not mean it's acceptable. Even if you could get away with it and make a dollar.

Personal problems, from illness to ignorance, make people say "yes" to all sorts of things that individuals should almost never do to other human beings. From pyramid schemes
to destructive cosmetic surgeries. Consent does not imply ethical.

(in reply to slowsweetkill)

Post #: 6

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 2:54:36 AM

UllrsIshtar

Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PerfectSurrender

Consent does not imply ethical.

Bullshit. Unless the client is incapable of giving consent, consent is all that's needed to cover the ethics.

If this is an action that will harm nobody but the client, it's the law that will prohibit her from doing this even WITH informed consent that is unethical in this case.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to PerfectSurrender)

Post #: 7

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 4:10:48 AM

ChatteParfaitt

Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline

I agree with this comment.

quote:

From pyramid schemes
to destructive cosmetic surgeries. Consent does not imply ethical.

That someone is willing to consent to having it done, does not make it ethical to do it. Everyone has to draw that line in the sand somewhere.

Where is it for you? (the collective you)

Bones breaking?

Unconsciousness?

Amputation?

Castration?

Horrible mutilation through burning or cutting?

Now, I'm not anyone's idea of an edge player, and I readily acknowledge that. But I *DO* think every sadist should have their own line in the sand -- a place where they will not go, even if the maso is willing and consenting.

_____________________________

(in reply to PerfectSurrender)

Post #: 8

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 4:26:14 AM

mons

Posts: 2400
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline

op

This is something you should not do, it is certain jail time, no written paper signed or not would
give you the right to harm another human being, the waiver is in your consent!

There are too many soft tissue inside of us that you have no ideal of what could or can happen!

Bleeding from the inside can kill so fast even before you reach out for help!

Even if you can hit where it would not, no wait it is just not something I can answer, the right way!

Watch out please! I say run away from him he is a risky item!

mons

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 9

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 4:29:17 AM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eXferret

I wanted to inquire if anyone has a sample agreement/waiver they could possibly show me
or guide me in making one prior to the sessions with my client.

Forget it.

If it ever does come to court, this agreement will make the case against you stronger. It will show that you were fully aware that you could cause him damage and yet chose to go ahead. From a legal point of view, he is not able to sign away his rights to not be beaten, even consensually.

If you do decide to go ahead, try a mindfuck where you beat him but not enough to cause any actual damage, while using tricks to make him think he's getting actually harmed.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to eXferret)

Post #: 10

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 5:46:24 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eXferret

Hi, I'm kinda of in a pickle.

I have a sub client asking for a very extreme request.
He could potentially get very very hurt hurt. I have done sessions with excessive force, with out problem, safe words and all that. But this one wants absolute no mercy. Black,Blue,Red. Potentially hospitalized
Very adamant about this.

I wanted to inquire if anyone has a sample agreement/waiver they could possibly show me
or guide me in making one prior to the sessions with my client.

Any and all advice/comments
appreciated

You're the one who'll be in charge (10 points) and you're the one not comfortable with the request? (-10 points). Adds up to zero of it happening - I'm not seeing the rocket science here....

Surely you've got your own instincts if not the experience. Question is do you really need this potential shit storm in your life?

No brainer to me... <shrugs>

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to eXferret)

Post #: 11

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 6:12:47 AM

lizi

Posts: 4673
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline

How would you handle the psychic burden on you now, and in the future, if it goes wrong? If he were injured, and if you could walk away from any prosecution (a big IF), you'd still have the knowledge that you knowingly did something to him that may result in a lifetime consequence.

In your corner, I can't see how the amount of money you will receive would be enough to risk your own freedom and peace of mind when it's all over. You could get off scot free and everyone is happy, or there might be a price to pay on both ends. The part of me that would place a bet, says this scenario is heading into risky territory mentally and physically and I'd stay out of it.

(in reply to eXferret)

Post #: 12

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 8:00:06 AM

Tantriqu

Posts: 2026
Joined: 12/29/2006
Status: offline

1. Know appropriate limits. Just because someone is PAYING you to do something, it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do [well, DUH]. We get guys begging us to kill and consume them, remove their penii, catheterise them through their anus . . . alas, the list never ends. We also know that sh*t is craycray, and no Domme in her right mind would even communicate with them.

2. Know basic first aid in humans, not test dummies. Know when someone is physically in distress EVEN THOUGH they're deep in an endorphin high; they may not know they're in irreversible trouble until it's too late. Their health and welfare is literally in your hands; the responsibility is huge.
And while you're taking first aid courses, don't you really want to be back in grad school?

3. Never hesitate to call for paramedics even though someone doesn't want it. Let the medical professionals decide things, rather than at the coroner's inquest: 'He didn't want me to call for an ambulance' is absolutely no defense, and shouldn't be. He's not in his right mind and the very definition of vulnerable.

4. Know what's legal. Pay-for-play of any kind is illegal where I live. And you could be in a sh*tload of trouble with any medical play or mutilation, 'cuz the docs and their lawyers would love to jump on that, you and whoever's premise you use.

5. Know your own limits; at least you're asking, but as above, it's distressing that you're even considering this, yet at least some part of you knows it's crazy and greedy and endangering both of your lives.

_____________________________

"Then I did the simplest thing in the world. I leaned down... and kissed him. And the world cracked open." - Agnes de Mille

(in reply to lizi)

Post #: 13

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 8:36:49 AM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

Just say no.

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

(in reply to Tantriqu)

Post #: 14

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 8:50:28 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Just say no.

This

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 15

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 10:44:00 AM

Baroana

Posts: 1480
Joined: 11/13/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Just say no.

This

Second that.

I hope you realize that if this person was to die from any injury you inflict, the law would deem it murder.

Edited to add:
It would be murder because you had the intent to inflict severe injury. If you did not have that intent, but you did kill him unintentionally, it would be some form of manslaughter.

< Message edited by Baroana -- 9/1/2012 10:48:11 AM >

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 16

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 11:24:43 AM

BambiBoi

Posts: 461
Joined: 8/10/2010
Status: offline

Never mind, not important. Sit this one out.

< Message edited by BambiBoi -- 9/1/2012 11:27:22 AM >

_____________________________

<3

(in reply to Baroana)

Post #: 17

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 1:25:35 PM

PerfectSurrender

Posts: 22
Joined: 1/29/2006
From: Saint Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: PerfectSurrender

Consent does not imply ethical.

Bullshit. Unless the client is incapable of giving consent, consent is all that's needed to cover the ethics.

If this is an action that will harm nobody but the client, it's the law that will prohibit her from doing this even WITH informed consent that is unethical in this case.

You must necessarily believe, whether consciously or not, that all people's mental states are equal at all times if you believe that "consent" is all that's needed to cover ethics. The law recognizes that this is foolishness and that's damn right.

You call bullshit, I call solipsism. A person does not need to be non compos mentis to be of a weaker and ultimately unhealthy mental state.
You draw the line precisely because you know what is (1.) damaging for the human body, (2.) damaging for the human mind and (3.) damaging for the financial state of a human being. There aren't always hard and fast rules for these three things but there exist general trends, such as that behavior that is "extreme" and may result in hospitalization is not safe or ethical. I won't assume that you're the kind of person whose wrestling match(es) with questions of ethics and morality has been primarily about what you can get away with, mine at least has been about what makes my world a better place. That includes how I treat each and every individual I come in contact with, not just what I can get from them. That includes not just what they say yes to.

I can get all kinds of people to say yes to all sorts of things that they think they're informed on. Their personal issues keep such information compartmentalized and therefore it's unethical for me to exploit it. I can go ahead and pretend that my stating the facts is informing them but we should all be advised that human beings do not always work that way. The enlightenment/Age of Reason was followed quickly by the Decadent Romantic period precisely because human beings do not work that way.

Adult and consensual are not the only questions. Human interaction and folly are not this simplistic.

If someone is of a weaker mentality than me then I have a responsibility towards them, if indeed they are more than mere strangers off the street, to not wrongfully exploit such weakness and the issues that stem from such weakness. This is true despite the fact that I exist as a selfish, godless animal.

The goal of any sane person that is willing to spend more than 10 minutes with another person should be to be patient, to enlighten and to be careful with the fragility of other lives. Even if at the end of the day we consent to beat them (or to be beaten).

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

Post #: 18

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/1/2012 2:59:13 PM

BambiBoi

Posts: 461
Joined: 8/10/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PerfectSurrender

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: PerfectSurrender

Consent does not imply ethical.

Bullshit. Unless the client is incapable of giving consent, consent is all that's needed to cover the ethics.

If this is an action that will harm nobody but the client, it's the law that will prohibit her from doing this even WITH informed consent that is unethical in this case.

...

If someone is of a weaker mentality than me then I have a responsibility towards them, if indeed they are more than mere strangers off the street, to not wrongfully exploit such weakness and the issues that stem from such weakness. This is true despite the fact that I exist as a selfish, godless animal.

The goal of any sane person that is willing to spend more than 10 minutes with another person should be to be patient, to enlighten and to be careful with the fragility of other lives. Even if at the end of the day we consent to beat them (or to be beaten).

We might be quibbling over operational definitions, but what you embody as "ethics" is more in line with "morality." You talk about enlightenment, bettering others and one's self, growth, making the world a better place in a normative fashion; that is, you suggest this SHOULD be the way. And we SHOULD behave a certain way.

Ethics differs from morals mainly in that the policy fueling it does not include bettering the world. Ethics is about getting by, being good enough. No ethical concept requires the helping of a suffering person. Like Batman; he won't kill you... but he doesn't have to save you. I am not saying you are wrong for imposing good quality principles upon yourself. But they are not necessary to the social contract, and ergo are not a part of ethics. You're better than ethical. If you live by the words you wrote, then you go above the call of duty. Kudos are indeed in order because, in your own words you've "adopted that responsibility." It wasn't required of you, you chose to walk the path of the light.

The law is not a body concerned only with ethics. The law is full of morals, judgments, mores, and biases in the pursuit of making the world a safe place and sometimes a better place. So you're right. Legally, "consent" as a defense goes pretty far but is not absolute.

_____________________________

<3

(in reply to PerfectSurrender)

Post #: 19

RE: looking for advice from an older mistress/domme - 9/4/2012 9:01:07 AM

anythingoes222

Posts: 13
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline

Mybe the guy is just insane.

(in reply to BambiBoi)

Post #: 20

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