RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (Full Version)

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FatDomDaddy -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/8/2012 4:17:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Someone will castrate themselves in the name of celebrity? Okey dokey.



Yes




LadyPact -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/8/2012 4:46:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Robert Kosilek is faking it for very good reasons... special attention and celebrity are at the top of the list.

As for GID...

It is a mental health disorder.

You do not become a woman by removing a penis and getting breast implants any more than you become a man by grafting on a penis and chopping off breasts.
Is this statement just to get the chromosome debate going because I don't see that ending well. (It's a joke. Don't be offended.)

The last place I'd want "special attention" would be in jail from the other inmates. If this person was faking it, I'd say it would have been smarter to use the idea during the trial before being convicted of murder.

ETA - For what it's worth, the name was legally changed to Michelle.





FatDomDaddy -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/8/2012 5:28:24 PM)

For what it's worth...

The man is a psychopath, he'll take special attention from whoever offers it and wherever it's offered




kalikshama -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/8/2012 5:28:37 PM)

quote:

just like Robert Kosilek is PRETENDING to be a woman.


I'm baffled at how anyone can come to this conclusion after reading the judge's decision: http://www.scribd.com/doc/104902489/Transgender




Aswad -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/8/2012 6:29:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Computer twit that I am, Ron, I've got a beaver shot. I'm just too dumb to know how to post it.


You do realize there are several people here that will gladly eliminate that obstacle for you, right?

IWYW,
— Aswad.





Aswad -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/8/2012 6:30:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Why are you supporting this one?


I can't say as I've seen anyone in this thread supporting the inmate in question.

IWYW,
— Aswad.





GotSteel -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/8/2012 6:32:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
Robert Kosilek is faking it for very good reasons... special attention and celebrity are at the top of the list.


*sigh*

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.merriam-webster.com/info/06words.htm
Merriam-Webster's #1 Word of the Year for 2006:
1. truthiness (noun)

...2 : "the quality of preferring concepts or facts one wishes to be true, rather than concepts or facts known to be true" (American Dialect Society, January 2006)





Hillwilliam -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/8/2012 6:39:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Why are you supporting this one?


I can't say as I've seen anyone in this thread supporting the inmate in question.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



A couple of the folks in our trans community are.




LadyPact -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/8/2012 6:51:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
You do realize there are several people here that will gladly eliminate that obstacle for you, right?

IWYW,
— Aswad.


My thanks to both you and Ron for making this old leather chick smile.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Why are you supporting this one?


I can't say as I've seen anyone in this thread supporting the inmate in question.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


I've had to wonder during the course of this thread if some were happy with the decision as a solidarity thing. I think pixie was the only trans poster that wasn't supporting the decision for the particular individual. There are times that we cis gender folks get told we are having certain opinions due to bigotry. It's just as possible that some trans folks are doing the reverse. Kind of an us vrs them thing.

Maybe that's just Me, but it's crossed My mind more than once during this thread.

Also, I did want to say that I've really appreciated everybody's comments here. I've learned quite a bit from this particular conversation.






stellauk -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/8/2012 8:48:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I think pixie was the only trans poster that wasn't supporting the decision for the particular individual.



I also don't support the decision to give Kosilek SRS gender reassignment surgery if it is publicly funded.

However I refuse to support any view that she is 'unworthy' of such treatment, just as I'm not prepared to support any decision that any person, irrespective of what they have done or crimes committed, should be denied medical treatment necessary for their basic mental or physical well-being or ability to function.

Kosilek committed the crime of murder, for which she has been convicted and sentenced. On that matter alone she has been tried, convicted and punished equal to any other person. I just hold the view that to deny her any possibility of SRS gender reassignment surgery whatsoever would be to additionally punish her for her gender which on my understanding would make the Eighth Amendment a factor, simply because someone's gender isn't usually a factor when it comes to sentencing or punishment.

However I object to her receiving SRS gender reassignment surgery funded by the state on the grounds of her eligibility.

There is an international set of criteria established by the medical profession together with the Harry Benjamin standards of care which forms the basis for all gender recognition (and gender acquisition) legislation and state funded gender reassignment procedures.

This is generally a once only deal where the transgendered undertakes to live permanently in their acquired gender and show that they are able to function in their acquired gender to show that they are eligible for such treatment and surgery. In order to acquire such recognition in the eyes of the law the transgendered have to provide evidence that they have received treatment (and surgery) from a recognized practitioner and have gone through the process under medical supervision.

There are generally three instances where a transgendered person may become ineligible for such treatment and recognition, and that is through (a) self-medication (b) mental illness and (c) anti-social behaviour and the committing of a violent crime.

Therefore contrary to public opinion not only is a transgendered person unable to gain legal recognition of their acquired gender without medical support, but generally also in order to receive state funded treatment they also have to qualify according to the criteria.

While I am prepared to accept that Michelle Kosilek is a transgendered female who may need such treatment or gender reassignment therapy such as hormones I am not supportive of her receiving state funded SRS gender reassignment surgery because she has committed murder and that there are far better candidates for state funded gender reassignment surgery who have not committed any crimes.

This means that if Michelle Kosilek were to fund her own SRS gender reassignment surgery paying for the costs of the procedure herself then I would have no objection.

However the fact that she is serving a life without parole sentence in prison for murder is not in my opinion a strong enough reason to justify a state funded operation when there are more deserving cases outside the prison walls.

I still feel that effective legislation on gender recognition and gender acquisition at a federal level would have prevented such a ruling as we have seen here and is something which is necessary. Not only would it provide some degree of protection to the pre-operative transgendered and enable them to acquire such recognition prior to surgery, it would also provide a set of established criteria on which subsequent rulings could be based.

I base my opinion on the fact that, while the state can provide gender reassignment therapy, hormones, treatment and surgery, the responsibility for proving eligibility and that they are able to function adequately in their acquired gender in society rests with the transgendered person themselves.





Winterapple -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/8/2012 8:55:07 PM)

FR
I haven't seen anyone in this thread
condone Michelle's actions, advocate
for her release from prison or be her
personal cheerleader. If you believe
medical treatment is a reward for good
behavior and witholding it is ethical
punishment you are going to see this
thread differently from those that don't.

I'm arguing for consistent application
of the law and the 8th amendment.
Branching out from that I'm arguing
for universal healthcare and ethical
behavior.

When you make the decision to
behave ethically you do so with
the built in understanding that
at some point you will choose to
behave ethically towards an unethical
person. Because you start playing
loosy goosy everyone ends up being
a son of a bitch.

It's like good manners if you choose
to ditch them when you encounter a
rude perso then all you've succeeded
in doing was to become a rude person
yourself.






LadyPact -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/8/2012 9:24:49 PM)

Stella, (and probably Winterapple, too) that's pretty much what I've been saying all along. Excuse the expression, but it's just kind of ass backward to Me. I remember you detailing the process to get surgery some time back and being very specific about having to live in the gender for a period of time as a part of that. Michelle is probably doing that to the best of her ability. Prison is the only "society" that she's going to experience, so as far as time lived as a female, that's really going to be the best she can do.

Unlike across the pond, we don't have health care that covers everyone. Heck, even most private insurance companies don't cover SRS. Only 55 of the Fortune 500 companies have it in their plans. For a lot of people, that means they are paying 100% out of pocket. That's a lot of money.

I do have to hand it to her legal team. Very intelligent to use the Eighth Amendment angle.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/8/2012 9:25:37 PM)

Thank you, Stella.




Winterapple -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/8/2012 10:52:18 PM)

As I said I'm not qualified to say if she's
a good candidate for surgery or not but
these doctors made a case for it and
convinced the judge. I'm going to go
with the assumption that the judge's
decision involved more than flipping
a coin.

You can sometimes expect medical
treatment to be a probable success
but you can't guarantee it. She may
recieve no benefit from the surgery
at all except she won't have a penis
she tries to remove.

Whether there are better and more
deserving candidates didn't mean
beans to the judge in making his
decision. Nor should it.

And Sacco and Vanzetti are still dead.




Aswad -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/9/2012 1:36:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

My thanks to both you and Ron for making this old leather chick smile.


We aim to tease. [;)]

quote:

I've had to wonder during the course of this thread if some were happy with the decision as a solidarity thing.


Last I checked, I was cis male, so it's probably not solidarity motivating my posting.

quote:

Maybe that's just Me, but it's crossed My mind more than once during this thread.


I can see why it would/might, though I couldn't say for sure. Seeing as I'm on the "sounds like the right decision by the judge" side of things, I have to assume I'll be biased in determine whether others are motivated by solidarity or have simply arrived at the right answer like me. I'm always right, of course. It is known. -lol-

quote:

Also, I did want to say that I've really appreciated everybody's comments here. I've learned quite a bit from this particular conversation.


As have I. Which is always a good thing.

IWYW,
—√\śẅàð»-





kdsub -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/9/2012 9:15:44 AM)

quote:

However I refuse to support any view that she is 'unworthy' of such treatment, just as I'm not prepared to support any decision that any person, irrespective of what they have done or crimes committed, should be denied medical treatment necessary for their basic mental or physical well-being or ability to function


Stella you are a good kind hearted person...but... tell the above to the loved ones of the murdered...Remember this has nothing to do with physical well being and it sure is not basic health by any measure. He or she as he chooses can function just fine in his or hers present body. If and when he is released or paroled and earns his own money then have at it.

Butch




angelikaJ -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/9/2012 11:21:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

However I refuse to support any view that she is 'unworthy' of such treatment, just as I'm not prepared to support any decision that any person, irrespective of what they have done or crimes committed, should be denied medical treatment necessary for their basic mental or physical well-being or ability to function


Stella you are a good kind hearted person...but... tell the above to the loved ones of the murdered...Remember this has nothing to do with physical well being and it sure is not basic health by any measure. He or she as he chooses can function just fine in his or hers present body. If and when he is released or paroled and earns his own money then have at it.

Butch


1) You are obviously separating physical and mental health. Mental health parity laws prohibit doing that.
2) According to the Judge's decision, she is not functioning well in her present body and to suggest otherwise seems to be implying that being transgendered is a conscious choice.

Other thoughts-
There is a wide difference of opinion as to what constitutes "basic health" care and how involved that should be regarding human rights and people who are incarcerated.
I think much of what has been discussed here is not related specifically to issues regarding general societal prejudices against T/g individuals but rather the question: is it right to be "extravagant" in providing health care beyond the most basic for people who have committed especially heinous crimes. It seems as though anything beyond what is seen as the bare minimum of maintenance is also perceived as a secondary wounding of crime victims and their loved ones.

However, after reading the Judge's decision re: the specifics of this case, it did seem as though there were deliberate actions that were a result of Michelle being who she is: a trangendered person directly due to prejudice.





stellauk -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/9/2012 11:46:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

However I refuse to support any view that she is 'unworthy' of such treatment, just as I'm not prepared to support any decision that any person, irrespective of what they have done or crimes committed, should be denied medical treatment necessary for their basic mental or physical well-being or ability to function


Stella you are a good kind hearted person...but... tell the above to the loved ones of the murdered...Remember this has nothing to do with physical well being and it sure is not basic health by any measure. He or she as he chooses can function just fine in his or hers present body. If and when he is released or paroled and earns his own money then have at it.

Butch


Really? And what has this got to do with the relatives of the murdered?

From what I can see Michelle Kosilek was found guilty of murdering her partner, she was convicted and sentenced to life in prison without parole. On that basis alone she has been punished on a par with everybody else in society. Take it or leave it, justice has been served.

This has got nothing to do with kindness, it's got everything to do with reality. The reality here is that criminal justice punishes criminals for their actions, not for their gender, not for their medical histories, but for their actions.

This part is somewhat puzzling..

quote:



Remember this has nothing to do with physical well being and it sure is not basic health by any measure.



So from what you are writing here, you don't regard mental health as a basic health issue? Interesting perspective, I must say.

So you don't think a sense of self is pretty important to someone's ability to function and to their basic emotional well-being? Or don't you think that gender dysphoria is a legitimate medical condition?

You do realize that such a position flies in the face of a medical professional who has examined Kosilek and testified in court, not to mention a major chunk of medical science.

Tell you what, why not come back to me with reasoning that is grounded in reality and not some half-baked assumptions.




kdsub -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/9/2012 1:12:19 PM)

quote:

You are obviously separating physical and mental health. Mental health parity laws prohibit doing that


I understand just fine...and yes I am separating what someone WANTS, who is functioning just fine in his body , and what he needs. He does not "NEED" this surgery to function and to me this is the bottom line...I do not and the state should not worry about making him happy with his body.

I do not care what the judge says that is not the point of this thread...this thread is about our opinions.

Butch




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/9/2012 1:21:16 PM)

Plus.... HE'S A MAN!




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