RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (Full Version)

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JstAnotherSub -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/9/2012 1:57:23 PM)

I have tried to find something on the internet that would make me have some doubts about my strong feelings on this, mainly because of people like Stella and Otters comments on it.

I have been unable to do that.

I find nothing that says this person ever even mentioned wanting to be a woman, until right after the murder of his wife.

He did things immediately after the murder that, to me, show an attempt to make mental illness a defense, because he knows he is fucked.

I think he is just having to take his bullshit farther than he could have ever imagined. I will give him kudos for hanging in there, but I feel that he has done more damage to the trans community than good.

Even if I did believe that surgery was something that we should provide for murderers, which I do not, but if I did I honestly believe I would argue against this particular person receiving it.




LadyPact -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/9/2012 2:04:28 PM)

Ok, I've got to ask.

I'm noticing a lot of back and forth about gender and names. When this person committed the crime, he was living as a male and his name was Robert. Today, this person has legally changed the name to Michelle. I couldn't find any of the process of changing documents, (birth certificate, etc) to the person's gender being female. Yes, the GID is discussed in the decision handed down from the judge, but I am unaware if that legally changes gender.

So, when talking about past events, shouldn't the male pronouns and name be used? He wasn't identifying as female then. She identifies as female today, so that part is easy for Me. I get that some folks do get hung up that the penis is still attached to this person, therefore, they see the person as male. I'm not here to try to change anyone's mind about that. (There are more qualified folks to take on that argument.)

Can anybody help Me with this question? Thanks in advance.



kdsub -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/9/2012 2:10:13 PM)

quote:

So from what you are writing here, you don't regard mental health as a basic health issue? Interesting perspective, I must say.


Sooo.... you think being a trans makes you mentally ill? Are you mentally ill? Only if he cannot function should this surgery be considered, and he has shown he can function just fine as he is...other than that it is elective surgery to make him happy with his body on my dime. AND I might add the dime of the love ones of the woman he murdered.

Butch



Aswad -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/9/2012 2:43:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Plus.... HE'S A MAN!


Whereas you've a dick?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

Edit: you're → you've




Aswad -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/9/2012 3:38:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Can anybody help Me with this question? Thanks in advance.


Sie asks and sie shall have hir answer.  [:D]

The question is strictly a matter of convention and intent. It is not grammatical in nature, except this: do not switch in a single scope, or binding failures will occur. That is, if you use a new pronoun for the same referent in a context where the previously used pronoun would have been unambiguous, then the reference will defeat the first line strategy for indexing used in intuitive parsing. It would seem that consideration would generally preclude projecting temporal state into the reference bearing element.

Thus, you're probably back to picking a single pronoun according to convention and intent. If you're referring to the person, rather than a snapshot of that person at a particular point in time, I would suggest using the reference that is the most appropriate for the current state of the referent, i.e. current gender. Since that appears to be on the feminine side of things, the choice seems obvious, and choosing differently will make it ambiguous whether you're being clever or just implying something about validity. I would be inclined to assume cleverness in your case, and implication for a lot of other posters, but someone new to the boards might make a different assumption. As always, it is likely best to choose what leaves the least room for misunderstandings.

That said, pronouns have nothing to do with gender, except as a legacy thing.

Pronouns have agreement of inflection pattern group. Someone thought it would be a good idea to call that gender, seeing as man/men and queen/queens were semantically minimal pairs (they differed only in gender and pattern group). Could've been conditioned by sound context for all I know, and has bugger-all to do with gender in the first place.

In time, English may well have two pronouns, probably "he" and "it" due to the ubiquity of "it" as a dummy word.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




stellauk -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/9/2012 3:45:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

So from what you are writing here, you don't regard mental health as a basic health issue? Interesting perspective, I must say.


Sooo.... you think being a trans makes you mentally ill? Are you mentally ill?



No I don't and my own personal case history isn't the subject of this thread, so please excuse me for not putting myself forward as a stellar example of the transgendered community.

There's a difference between a mental illness - which implies some degree of impairment - and a mental condition, which does not. A mental condition is a state of being which may or may not carry with it come degree of impairment.

We don't know, because there is not enough information available for us to arrive at a definite conclusion. Each and every case is different, each and every transgendered person has their own history and their own experiences.

I have already stated that it is a possibility that Michelle Kosilek finds it hard to function, but it's by no means a certainty. We can only go by what information is available and draw our own conclusions. One thing is for sure, making hasty assumptions and jumping to conclusions tends to do more damage than good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Only if he cannot function should this surgery be considered, and he has shown he can function just fine as he is...other than that it is elective surgery to make him happy with his body on my dime. AND I might add the dime of the love ones of the woman he murdered.



I have already stated that it is my belief that within the parameters of gender reassignment treatment and surgery being made available as part of public healthcare - within the framework of gender recognition - someone who has committed a violent crime against another person is generally not a good candidate for eligibility.

Therefore I can fully understand the opposition to Kosilek receiving SRS gender reassignment surgery paid for out of public funding.

But the fact remains the same that a convicted murderer who is transgendered and seeking SRS gender reassignment surgery does not diminish the necessity of such surgery or the benefit it brings to others. It also does not diminish the nature of gender dysphoria or the experiences that the transgendered have to go through in their daily lives.

Furthermore it does not diminish the actual gender of Michelle Kosilek who is as far as I'm aware, at this moment in time, a transgendered woman serving a life without parole sentence for murder. It does not matter whether we are talking about Robert or Michelle here because we are talking about the same human being with the same past - the crime was committed by the same person.

This comes back to what Winterapple stated where she wrote about ethics. When you set yourself up and hold yourself to a certain ethical standard you have to accept that some of the people you will be dealing with will not be as ethical.

Two wrongs do not make a right. We maintain our ethical standards as a society because our liberty and our justice demand it. When we compromise on our ethical standards we compromise our society.









FatDomDaddy -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/9/2012 4:00:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Plus.... HE'S A MAN!


Whereas you've a dick?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

Edit: you're → you've





You can call me any names you want but that doesn't change the fact Kosilek, no matter what surgery he has or first name he changes to, is a male.



stellauk -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/9/2012 4:14:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

I have tried to find something on the internet that would make me have some doubts about my strong feelings on this, mainly because of people like Stella and Otters comments on it.

I have been unable to do that.

I feel that he has done more damage to the trans community than good.

Even if I did believe that surgery was something that we should provide for murderers, which I do not, but if I did I honestly believe I would argue against this particular person receiving it.



I've hung back from responding to the thread in OT but I will respond here.

I'm of the opinion that this particular ruling in the long run will do more damage than good.

I honestly believe that it's possible in the absence of effective gender recognition legislation at federal level. This would not only provide the transgendered themselves with legal recognition and a degree of protection, but it also sets a standard by which everyone else can refer to.

However there is no such legislation, and thus we now have a judge who has come up with a ruling which is potentially dangerous and somewhat damaging in the argument for equality for the transgendered.

Michelle Kosilek is hardly a poster child for the transgendered community, and the ruling that she be given state funded SRS surgery can only serve to fuel and reinforce prejudice against the transgendered through public opinion.

It also sends out a message that violent crime is no barrier to gender reassignment treatment within the parameters of public healthcare.

Then of course is the obvious question - if a convicted criminal can be deemed eligible for gender reassignment treatment and surgery within public healthcare, then what about the hundreds of thousands of transgendered people out there in society who are making the effort to lead fulfilling and productive lives in their acquired gender?

I cannot have any objection to the provision of such treatment and surgery in terms of necessity because it is unclear when Kosilek started transitioning and I also feel we have no way of knowing just how necessary and important this is to her.

But what I can voice is an objection in terms of eligibility and this is on the basis that there are many transgendered people out there who are functioning in their acquired gender but who have no possibility, and as it appears no entitlement to treatment and surgery within the parameters of the public healthcare system.

And surely if anyone is to be given such treatment those who are successfully making an effort to transition in their acquired gender are the ones who should get priority. Yes?



angelikaJ -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/9/2012 4:57:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

So from what you are writing here, you don't regard mental health as a basic health issue? Interesting perspective, I must say.


Sooo.... you think being a trans makes you mentally ill? Are you mentally ill? Only if he cannot function should this surgery be considered, and he has shown he can function just fine as he is...other than that it is elective surgery to make him happy with his body on my dime. AND I might add the dime of the love ones of the woman he murdered.

Butch


IMOHO, there is a difference between someone having a mental illness and having a condition that if it is not treated will lead to the harm of one's emotional health.

For instance: there are people with disfiguring birthmarks on their faces.
Does having a birthmark mean the person is mentally ill?
Of course not.
And the birthmark is not getting in the way of any physical function.
But very often these birthmarks are removed because the continuation of the disfigurement would cause extreme emotional distress and removing them can prevent and/or relieve that.

I do not know if "Michelle" is perpetuating a hoax or not.
Experts seem to think she isn't.

But to have an inner identity that does not match one's outer appearance by all evidence does cause severe emotional distress.

My one question re: the validity of the diagnosis is this: is it possible that once the surgery is done that Robert/Michelle is angling to have the sentence vacated b/c s/he now has a completely different identity that goes beyond a simple name change; that essentially Robert will cease to exist and how can one lock up a non-existent person?



GotSteel -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/9/2012 6:25:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Ok, I've got to ask.

I'm noticing a lot of back and forth about gender and names. When this person committed the crime, he was living as a male and his name was Robert. Today, this person has legally changed the name to Michelle. I couldn't find any of the process of changing documents, (birth certificate, etc) to the person's gender being female. Yes, the GID is discussed in the decision handed down from the judge, but I am unaware if that legally changes gender.

So, when talking about past events, shouldn't the male pronouns and name be used? He wasn't identifying as female then. She identifies as female today, so that part is easy for Me. I get that some folks do get hung up that the penis is still attached to this person, therefore, they see the person as male. I'm not here to try to change anyone's mind about that. (There are more qualified folks to take on that argument.)

Can anybody help Me with this question? Thanks in advance.



Well as far as I can tell according to Mass law Michelle is still a man.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleVII/Chapter46/Section13
Amending a Birth Certificate: A person who has completed sex reassignment surgery, and has had a legal name change by a court, may have their birth record amended to reflect the newly acquired sex and name.



kdsub -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/9/2012 7:45:32 PM)

quote:

SRS gender reassignment surgery does not diminish the necessity of such surgery or the benefit it brings to others.


stella you keep talking in circles and completely miss my point. I am not arguing the above for deserving people so we agree and always have I guess except you are saying he is not a good candidate because he is unstable...I am saying Duh

He is not a candidate at all because he is a murder and does not deserve elective surgery at our expense so we are saying the same thing. Folks keep arguing that myself, and others against this operation, are not sensitive to the trans experience...We are but not in the case of this murderer.

Butch



Aswad -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/10/2012 12:06:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

You can call me any names you want but that doesn't change the fact Kosilek, no matter what surgery he has or first name he changes to, is a male.


It was a slip. I accidentally typed my mind, rather than what I corrected it to when I realized the mistake.

The intended comment, however, seems to have slipped by you.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




tweakabelle -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/10/2012 2:53:26 AM)

So much confusion about simple things like pronouns. Is Kolliek a 'he' or a 'she'?

Leaving aside the strident dogmatic assertions of a few bigots, there are reasonable grounds for confusion here. This is because there are differing definitions of sex in medical, legal and everyday discourse. That's before we even begin to consider gender.

The everyday assumption is that there are only two sexes and/or genders - male and female - and that these are determined irrevocably by genital status at birth. This assumption is flawed, and in the case of transgendered or intersex people, frequently unworkable. To put it simply, there is no defining criterion or series of defining criteria that allows all human beings to be classified as either male or female. That includes chromosonal, genetic, genital and other criteria. The popular view that there are only two genders is flawed, a fiction or if you prefer, a myth.

Unfortunately in most jurisdictions, the law insists that there are only two genders, and these are fixed and immutable from birth. IOW, the law is a legal fiction. Hence the difficulties and confusion that often surrounds cases of transgender and/or intersex people. Transgendered and intersex people are forced to live within the dictates of a legal fiction that their very existence proves to be invalid and fictional.

Is there a solution to this impasse? The only solution I know of that can theoretically work in all cases is to allow those people who so desire to self define and self identify. It would greatly help clarify the confusion if we acknowledged that for most everyday situations, sex (as a category) is pretty irrelevant and gender is the relevant category.* And that the gender confusion we are fond of attributing to transgender and intersex people is our own confusion.

It's time we stopped forcing transgendered and intersex people to pay the price for our insistence on a model of gender that is mythical and fictional.

* For example, why is sex listed on a driving license? There's no reason for it and there's certainly no connection between sex/gender and driving capability.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/10/2012 5:31:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle



* For example, why is sex listed on a driving license? There's no reason for it and there's certainly no connection between sex/gender and driving capability.

Your driver's license is frequently your primary means of identification.
If a person has a unisex name i.e. tony, how is someone supposed to know that it is your license. Combine that with height, age, hair and eye color and it is a clue to whoever is checking whether you hav e the correct license or not.

Hell, even if you don't have a unisex name. I shit you not, a friend of mine has a wife that by some perverted sense of her old man when she was born is has the name of "Bruce".



tweakabelle -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/10/2012 5:50:34 AM)

quote:

Your driver's license is frequently your primary means of identification.
If a person has a unisex name i.e. tony, how is someone supposed to know that it is your license. Combine that with height, age, hair and eye color and it is a clue to whoever is checking whether you hav e the correct license or not.


Here, driving licenses have a photo of the holder on them. Which is more than enough to identify the holder.
The point is that we are required to list our sex in almost every form we fill out. 99% of the time, that information is quite unnecessary.



GotSteel -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/10/2012 7:02:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Hell, even if you don't have a unisex name. I shit you not, a friend of mine has a wife that by some perverted sense of her old man when she was born is has the name of "Bruce".


I went to college with a guy named Courtney.



LadyPact -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/10/2012 8:16:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Well as far as I can tell according to Mass law Michelle is still a man.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleVII/Chapter46/Section13
Amending a Birth Certificate: A person who has completed sex reassignment surgery, and has had a legal name change by a court, may have their birth record amended to reflect the newly acquired sex and name.
Thank you. I don't want to seem ungrateful since you did go to the trouble to look that up for verification. As far as I know, that's the policy of a number of states.

The thing is, as a person, I can understand the concept of transitionING. (Sorry, but I'm trying to emphasize the process here.) There is that period of time between identifying as one gender and getting to the point where SRS can be done. During that time, I have no problem identifying that person as the gender that they want the reassignment surgery to align their inside and their outside to be. The legal process may not recognize it the same way I do.

Thank you again for taking the time.





amaidiamond -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/11/2012 1:19:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Plus.... HE'S A MAN!


Whereas you've a dick?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

Edit: you're → you've





You can call me any names you want but that doesn't change the fact Kosilek, no matter what surgery he has or first name he changes to, is a male.



Wow, sad that this kind of backward thinking about transgendered people still exists.



FatDomDaddy -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/11/2012 12:15:48 PM)

First of all gender is linguistic word used for grammar classification.

The proper word to use is not "gender" it is "sex"

From what I gather across the internet there seems to be a push to use Transsexualism by their own community with an insistence on the proper pronouns of "he" and "she" to define their sex.

The backward use of the word "gender" doesn't help the cause of those what want to live that lifestyle.




GotSteel -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/12/2012 6:00:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Thank you. I don't want to seem ungrateful since you did go to the trouble to look that up for verification. As far as I know, that's the policy of a number of states.



I was interested to see how the whole thing works legally, seems to be all sorts of fucked up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.aclu.org/blog/lgbt-rights/your-choice-wrong-gender-drivers-license-or-surgery
In Alaska, if you're a transgender person, the state requires you to have surgery to change the gender marker on your driver's license. Today, the ACLU filed a brief challenging this state surgery requirement on behalf of a transgender woman, K.L.

K.L. has lived as a woman for two years, and whose work documents and even her U.S. passport all identify her as female. But when she tried to change the gender on her state driver's license, she was told she had to submit proof of having undergone sex reassignment surgery.

Which is ridiculous. The American Psychiatric Association and medical experts agree that surgery is not medically necessary for some with gender identity disorder (GID). Some transgender people can be effectively treated without it, making it unnecessary for the state to confirm whether or not an individual has had surgery before correcting a license.

Also, surgery is incredibly expensive and potentially risky. The State Department no longer requires transgender people to have surgery before it will correct the gender marker on passports, and a growing number of states have stopped requiring surgery for changing the gender marker on a driver’s license.

So what's wrong with Alaska? We hope to find out with today's lawsuit. Stay tuned.



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