RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (Full Version)

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GotSteel -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 1:46:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
“incompatible with the concept of human dignity.”


I can't say that I'm opposed to inmates getting adequate medical care but frankly where the fuck is the human dignity for everyone else in need of treatment who isn't a murderer.




CalifChick -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 1:48:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

If SRS is not given, the person will not die as a consequence, or suffer other physical effects.


Kosilek has attempted to castrate himself and twice tried to commit suicide, according to court documents.


That's his choice, not a medical consequence.





LadyHibiscus -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 1:50:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

If SRS is not given, the person will not die as a consequence, or suffer other physical effects.


Kosilek has attempted to castrate himself and twice tried to commit suicide, according to court documents.


That's his choice, not a medical consequence.




I suspect that many inmates attempt suicide and self harm. This woman deserves no different treatment.




FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 1:52:06 PM)

I should perhaps clarify what I first stated. I was addressing the timing of this matter being heard. There are several legal analysts in the Dept that are saying this Jurist moved other matters aside because he determined it politically useful to do so. I haven't had time to voice an opinion on the man's condition or whether or not he should have SRS.
   




GotSteel -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 2:08:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
The woman may be changed by artificial means from a man to a woman

Personally I'm having trouble accepting the claims that taking hormones and having plastic surgery on ones genitals actually turns a man into a woman.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
...and will most likely need to remain on hormone treatment but she may still have the muscle structure and strength of a man. This could become a problem when incarcerated with woman with slighter builds.

However, in this case the inmate is 57 and doesn't look to be particularly big. On the other hand he has managed to strangle a woman to death before [sm=dunno.gif]



[image]local://upfiles/566126/2F3A2C15A6FD4ED4835EB8B58966C749.jpg[/image]




OttersSwim -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 2:44:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Personally I'm having trouble accepting the claims that taking hormones and having plastic surgery on ones genitals actually turns a man into a woman.


Given that there are multiple diagnoses for GID on this individual I will say that she is already a woman. A woman experiencing a severe disconnect between her brain and her body.

The SRS is a step to making her whole - in as much as she can be.

Having experienced GID in person, I can tell you that it is a disorder - it is at its most minimal form life disruptive, and for some who experience it severely can be totally life destructive - and can literally mean death. Because death is preferable to continuing life with the disconnect.

Multiple medical professionals have deemed this woman needs this treatment. Given the history, likely because without it she will take her own life or do herself serious harm.

You can further lock her up, medicate her to keep her from harming herself for the rest of her short life.

Or you can treat the affliction that causes the disconnect between brain and body, heart and mind. It isn't going to cure everything, in fact as as has been stated, it creates additional complications.

But, it will give her a level of authenticity in her life, in her body, in her heart and mind - that just might save her life.

And that is the responsibility of the state in this very particular case.




GotSteel -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 5:48:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Personally I'm having trouble accepting the claims that taking hormones and having plastic surgery on ones genitals actually turns a man into a woman.


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
Given that there are multiple diagnoses for GID on this individual I will say that she is already a woman. A woman experiencing a severe disconnect between her brain and her body.


Yeah I've learned about the suicide attempts and self mutilation, some people clearly are caused a significant amount of distress by their physical gender. I'm not aware of any great success getting such people to accept the gender that they are and I've certainly heard anecdotal evidence that undergoing hormonal and cosmetic treatments and role playing being a woman helps ease their distress.

I'm sure if someone I cared about was having this problem I'd role play along with them, really what other option is there? However in a philosophical discussion about a murderer I'm not feeling motivated to role play. I can't say that I grasp how this guy identifying as a woman is the same as him already being a woman.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 5:54:23 PM)

GotSteel, it's apparent that you don't have a handle on gender dysphoria. There is no 'role play' involved, I assure you.





FatDomDaddy -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 6:14:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

And now that she'll be physically female, will she be moved to a women's facility?


Judge Wolf said correction officials, not himself, should decide where the surgery should take place, who should perform it and where Kosilek should be incarcerated after the surgery.



This is just the start of the money hole this bozo is going to be because under the US Constitution it would be cruel and unusual punishment to house a woman in a male penitentiary.

I don't care what Massachusetts Prison Officials (or Federal Prison officials say about this or future issue like this) are saying right now... if by law he's really a woman, then he gets to live out live as a woman in a WOMAN'S prison. That's multi-million dollar tax payer funded law suit is being brawn up as we speak, you can bank that.




kalikshama -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 6:20:14 PM)

Gender identity disorder

Gender identity disorder (GID) is the formal diagnosis used by psychologists and physicians to describe persons who experience significant gender dysphoria (discontent with the sex they were assigned at birth and/or the gender roles associated with that sex). It describes the symptoms related to transsexualism, as well as less severe manifestations of gender dysphoria. GID is classified as a medical disorder by the ICD-10 CM[1] and by the DSM-IV TR.[2] It is likely that the new version of the DSM will replace this category with "Gender Dysphoria."[3] Some authorities do not classify gender dysphoria as a mental illness, including the NHS which describes it as "a condition for which medical treatment is appropriate in some cases."[4]

Read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder




TheHeretic -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 6:25:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Your Google-fu is weak and slow, F.  You should studyTazzy style.   


I'll assume that was an insult.
and leave on the ground for someone else.
I actually DO admire Tazzygirl. and several other women here.




No, it was a light hearted snark, marking the fact that your post was way late, in relation to the first of its kind, and far less complete and informative.  [:D] 




GotSteel -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 6:56:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
GotSteel, it's apparent that you don't have a handle on gender dysphoria.

No, I can't say I do. I don't think I'm alone in that, last I looked we're talking about a condition or mental illness that's not terribly well understood and a treatment that's classified as experimental.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
There is no 'role play' involved, I assure you.

Taking hormones and having surgery to alter ones genitals so that they look more like those of the opposite gender is significantly different from physically being the opposite gender. If you don't like the term role play, what label should be used for purposefully ignoring that difference and calling this guy a woman?



[image]local://upfiles/566126/5A94C484D22A4A548DE797ABD69FFB14.jpg[/image]




GotSteel -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 7:40:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
Multiple medical professionals have deemed this woman needs this treatment. Given the history, likely because without it she will take her own life or do herself serious harm.


I'm having trouble reconciling this treatment as necessity for adequate medical care and human dignity and so experimental that medicare users don't have access to it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.cms.gov/Regulations-and-Guidance/Guidance/Transmittals/downloads/R131CIM.pdf
Transsexual surgery for sex reassignment of transsexuals is controversial. Because of the lack of
well controlled, long term studies of the safety and effectiveness of the surgical procedures and
attendant therapies for transsexualism, the treatment is considered experimental. Moreover, there
is a high rate of serious complications for these surgical procedures. For these reasons, transsexual
surgery is not covered.




stellauk -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 7:42:17 PM)

I wonder what the general reaction would be if we had a murderer who was being denied medical treatment because they were male, or because they were female, or because they were black, or Hispanic, or Jewish, or disabled, or homosexual.

It would be unreasonable, it might even be unthinkable.

And yet to some here because the prisoner is transgendered it is perfectly acceptable.

Thing is there is no way possible, either scientifically, or medically, to transform a man into a woman. No amount of hormones or surgery will ever create a new person out of an existing human being, there is no way possible to change a man into a woman. It is science fiction, an illusion, nothing else.

But being transgendered isn't about becoming another person, but it's about being able to be oneself in terms of gender identity on a par with everyone else and being able to enjoy the same quality of life as everyone else with a gender identity which is congruent in psychological, emotional and physical terms.

Unlike most other medical conditions and illnesses, there are no physical symptoms, no 'transgendered gene', you cannot run a series of tests to identify it, and yet it is a very real condition.

It is a condition which relies on both self-diagnosis and the ability to function in society in one's acquired gender role. However the criteria for identifying GID isn't left to the transgendered individual themselves, but has been devised by the medical profession themselves together with the Harry Benjamin standards of care.

Therefore unlike most other medical conditions which can be tested for and identified in very real, concrete ways simply telling a doctor that you are transgendered isn't enough - you have to prove that you are transgendered and often over a long period of time before doctors will accept that you are transgendered. Unlike most other conditions, you are guilty until you prove yourself to be innocent.

To me Michelle Kosilek is very much a woman and the same person as Robert Kosilek who she was in her past. It's the exact same human being, and one who has shown and proven that she can function in society through having functioned as a woman in society and completed a course of hormones, therefore in the eyes of the medical profession and subsequently the law.. proving also that she is eligible for SRS surgery. She is not a woman of course in the same sense as a naturally born woman, but she is functioning in the same way, female is her acquired gender, and thus socially and legally at least, she is a woman.

This is medically necessary treatment to her to enable her to function as a woman and be on a par, and equal to other prisoners who are cisgendered and have a gender identity which is complete and congruent in psychological, emotional and physical terms. For that reason alone from an ethical standpoint her operation is necessary.

There is no dispute as to her crime or her conviction. She took the life of another person as a woman, she has been sentenced as a woman and from what I can make out, she is serving her time as a woman.

People who commit crimes are judged and sentenced on the basis of their actions and decisions alone. The fact that she has murdered somebody doesn't diminish her gender identity in any way, it just means that she is a convicted murderer.

She has therefore been sentenced to life without parole for the murder which is just enough punishment. To withhold or deny her surgery to complete her process of gender reassignment would be to additionally punish her for being transgendered.

This is something which I do feel does violate the Eighth Amendment and also the standards of mature and evolving standards of decency in a civilized society.




Real0ne -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 7:53:01 PM)

so the question is;

say I get tossed in jail for J-Walking....can I then demand a horse dick because I identify and have always believed I should have been born a horse?




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 8:09:32 PM)

I have no issue with her continued hormone treatment. How many transfolk actually get SRS?




Real0ne -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 8:44:17 PM)

I dont know, never did a poll, I just think fair is fair after all.




GotSteel -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 10:10:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
I wonder what the general reaction would be if we had a murderer who was being denied medical treatment because they were male, or because they were female, or because they were black, or Hispanic, or Jewish, or disabled, or homosexual.

Not medical treatment, experimental medical treatment. You really can't gloss over the word experimental because it effects where people stand on this issue.

Being denied an experimental medical treatment that the government won't give out to non criminals because it's experimental isn't the same as being denied a non experimental medical treatment because of gender/race/orientation/etc.





SadistDave -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 10:20:13 PM)





VioletGray -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 11:13:52 PM)

Wow.. just.. wow. I think I'll start with an irrational emotional outburst, just to get it out of the way..

OMG some of you people are so fucking ignorant you make me wish I had a condom, a time machine, and a map to your parent's bedroom!! Every documentary ever written about the fight to overcome any kind of prejudice features australopithecenes JUST LIKE YOU!!

Ahem. Sorry. I apologize. Whew! O.k. Thinking clearly now.

O.k., so there are some people on this planet who have only three options in life:

1.) Transition.
2.) Live the rest of their lives in mental anguish.
3.) Die.


That's it. If you're not doing 1 or 3, you're doing 2. I can't believe how some people on here seem to consider this some kind of treat. It's no more a treat than giving a diabetic prisoner insulin. If you arrest a murderer who happens to be on fire, extinguishing him is not treating him special.

People seem to think that it's o.k. because the person is also a murderer. Well we already have a punishment for murder, it's called jail. Jail + forcing her to life like a man is actually extra punishment. It's "life without parole," not "life without parole plus mental anguish." Some people in jail for the long haul find religion, come to terms their lives and situations and reach some sort of peace. Are we going to go back and make sure that THEY all suffer mentally in some way too?

Find anyone who's had the surgery and ask them if they considered it some kind of pampering. It's a treatment, not a pedicure.




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