RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (Full Version)

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stellauk -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/5/2012 11:49:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
I wonder what the general reaction would be if we had a murderer who was being denied medical treatment because they were male, or because they were female, or because they were black, or Hispanic, or Jewish, or disabled, or homosexual.

Not medical treatment, experimental medical treatment. You really can't gloss over the word experimental because it effects where people stand on this issue.

Being denied an experimental medical treatment that the government won't give out to non criminals because it's experimental isn't the same as being denied a non experimental medical treatment because of gender/race/orientation/etc.



But pretty effective treatment nonetheless. In fact it's been very effective treatment for at least half a century.

Besides quite a lot of other medical treatment is experimental.

And when since did public opinion determine whether an individual receives medical treatment or not?

Given the prejudice transgendered people face in wider society permitting Kosilek to have surgery isn't going to be a popular decision.

But from what I can see from her life prior to being in prison, her female gender was already 'acquired' therefore from purely an ethical standpoint, on which a doctor bases their decision, she is eligible for such surgery on grounds of medical necessity.

And on that same ethical standpoint the judge very clearly made his decision.



Winterapple -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 12:17:22 AM)

FR
It's treatment not an experiment.
Qualified, educated people, doctors
and the judge made the decision
and they didn't do it just for the hell
of it or to give ignorant knee jerkers
on message boards to have something
to piss and moan about.

Gender dysmorphia is real.

Witholding treatment is cruel and
unusual punishment. I also think
she should be sent to a maximum
security female prison for the rest
of her sentence which if you didn't
catch is life imprisonment.

She isn't a man becoming a woman.
She's a woman who has a condition
that can be treated. Doctors have
recommended it and a judge has
agreed and ruled on it.

I really thought a lot of the ignorance
and bigotry on this subject had
lessened with a better informed public.



LadyPact -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 12:52:30 AM)

Can somebody please direct Me to the link where it says this person was living as a female at the time of the murder or at any time than other being incarcerated? According to one of the links the OP provided (the one from the article printed in 2006) in 1993, when he was Robert, he was wearing male clothes and had a beard. I saw one listing that said he testified in court that he had GID since he was three, but there's no mention of medical treatment for it prior to the crime.

After reading Violet's post, I got to thinking. If the three choices are the ones facing folks with GID, and the general population has such a hard time getting and paying for this surgery, we really now have four. Hey, I'll fess up. If I was in the same situation, to the point where I was attempting suicide or cutting off My own penis, life in jail might be a fair trade if I thought I would be able to access the surgery by being convicted of murder. And that's Me. Somebody who has never experienced the hatred of My own body parts or gender. Hell, I might even consider it self preservation. I mean, if it meant My life compared to another's life, I'm just not that self sacrificing, and might just give it a shot if I felt it was My only hope.

The ruling goes to say that the surgery is the only way to improve this prisoner's depression and anxiety issues. Aren't most people in prison depressed? That whole guilt thing for taking somebody's life might come into play. I'm not trying to be a bitch here, but if I was the only inmate that looked like a woman and was too small in stature to fight off other inmates, I'd probably have anxiety, too.

I appreciate that there are folks from other countries who have spoken up to say that their national health care is paying to have gender reassignment. That system isn't in place here, so you have to recognize the way medical costs are determined. I'll be quite interested to find out if such surgery would be covered under the health bill that Obama got passed. Oh, that's right. Eighth Amendment. Because this person committed murder, there is a different standard of care. There's something pretty messed up about that.



Winterapple -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 1:27:15 AM)

Yes, there is and if all Americans had access
to adequate medical care, if it was accepted
as a basic human right as it is in enlightened
countries , this wouldn't be a issue.




tazzygirl -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 1:29:07 AM)

quote:

I'll be quite interested to find out if such surgery would be covered under the health bill that Obama got passed.


Since you asked...

President Obama’s landmark Affordable Care Act (ACA) addresses all of these issues. The NCTE has put together an excellent briefing describing the benefits of the ACA for transgender individuals.

http://outservemag.com/2012/07/me-the-aca-and-transgender-coverage/

and

http://www.thenation.com/article/169391/what-affordable-care-act-means-transgender-people



LadyPact -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 3:08:05 AM)

Thank you, tazzy. I read both links. While the second one goes into "there will be no discrimination" angle, I saw that more as those items that really aren't related to transition no longer being able to stop being covered on that basis. The first article was geared more toward paperwork juggling and special advice for those who are eligible for benefits through the VA. I saw that therapy, hormones, etc would be covered, but nothing that stated that SRS would be a part of ACA. I could have missed it since it's late in My time zone. I'll read them over again after some sleep.

Thanks again.



GotSteel -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 5:13:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Can somebody please direct Me to the link where it says this person was living as a female at the time of the murder or at any time than other being incarcerated? According to one of the links the OP provided (the one from the article printed in 2006) in 1993, when he was Robert, he was wearing male clothes and had a beard. I saw one listing that said he testified in court that he had GID since he was three, but there's no mention of medical treatment for it prior to the crime.


That's all I got from wiki. The guy killed his wife in 1990 as Robert Kosilek and changed his name 3 years later. Oh and that he's lost 8 lawsuits to force the Massachusetts Department of Corrections to provide electrolysis for him.

[image]local://upfiles/566126/A6CB4636E7214844A9E201868CA777F6.jpg[/image]



Aswad -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 9:56:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

The point is that if he is not going to die unless he has the surgery, then there is no reason for the state to pay for it.


As others have pointed out, there is a substantial mortality rate associated with severe GID.

quote:

He is a convicted murder, the state has an obligation of necessary health care.


Which the judge has ordered be provided, after it was identified as necessary and then withheld.

quote:

Unless it can be demonstrated that GID is a psychosis (and the last time I checked, it wasn't) that makes him a risk to others or himself, I do not see why the state should be obligated to treat him.


I never said it's a psychosis. Rather, I said that- by your argument, in its original form- even psychosis would not be necessary to treat.

quote:

Read my profile and then come back here and call me a bigot.


I read your words. They were prejudiced.

I did not, however, call you a bigot, which would have both (a) moved the statement from the domain of criticizing what was in evidence in your post, into the domain of criticizing you personally beyond the available evidence, and (b) been an error of degree, as bigotry implies hatred or intolerance, not just prejudice and other mere deficits of knowledge and understanding. As suggested, though, I did read your profile, which adds nothing to the picture.

I applaud you for having put a fresh coat of paint on your prejudices, but also encourage you to deal with their substance.

quote:

I refer to the convicted murder here as "he" because I simply do see him as worthy of the respect that I would give to the non-murdering transgendered people I know.


Am I to understand that you consider the transgendered women you know to be women until and unless they commit a crime, while the cisgendered women you know remain women also after committing a crime? Or are you saying a cisgendered woman also ceases to be a woman in your view when she commits a crime? Do the cisgendered males become female in your world on committing crime? How about transgendered males? Refusing to recognize her established gender is no better than using the term "fat, lazy cunt" about a non-overweight woman that commits a crime, while maintaining that it somehow shows a decent sensitivity to obese people to use their characteristic problem as an insult and that doing so does not display a prejudice on the part of one resorting to that particular insult.

quote:

That's how the post came across to me. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong. People misinterpret what others have written sometime (as you have done in this case). I'm not ashamed to admit a mistake.


I have a hard time understanding how you arrived at that conclusion. If you could point it out, I can try to be clearer in the future.

quote:

If we are agreed that GID did not diminish his capacity to distinguish reality from fantasy or right from wrong then he is not insane, and the whole thing is a non-issue.


It is a sidebar, not a non-issue. But, as a sidebar, we need not pursue it.

quote:

The only issue that remains is whether or not the state should be obligated to pay for the murder's sex change operation. As I have already stated, I do not believe it should be.


Which is what I answered by noting that your position is either an objection to the availability of prescribed medical care to prison inmates, or an objection to the validity of prescribing this particular treatment for this particular inmate, then I went on to outline a few of the absurd consequences of either position.

quote:

So what's your problem?


That you posited something about criterion for insanity that has its basis in neither fact nor practice, as far as I can tell. A pet peeve.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 10:00:25 AM)

-screw it-



OttersSwim -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 10:20:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

-screw it-



QFT...again.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 10:23:09 AM)

What happens to her post surgery is going to be precedent setting.



OttersSwim -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 11:10:11 AM)

You are right LadyH, and it is a question that needs to be answered - on a state and federal basis and by society at large.

While I chafe at the stereotypical sideshow nature of this situation, I applaud that it is getting key transgendered issues out in front of the public.

This issue points right back to the basic rights of transgendered people everywhere from the right to declare and live their own gender identity, to issues of discrimination and access (can they legally use the bathroom of their declared gender leads right into how do we determine where a transgendered offender might be incarcerated), to the larger questions of how they are treated by societal systems such as law, courts, prisons, and healthcare.

It is almost certain that this individual has faced or been subjected to extreme prejudice, danger, violence, and even rape. It is hard to imagine that she is not in daily danger...who would willingly chose that if it were not something that was even more threatening to her life and wellbeing as a human being?

This person's experience affects every transgender person out there. Are we as a society willing to allow her to declare and own her own identity? Thereby, where does she belong after she undergoes SRS? If she is put back into a male prison, it says that the administrators in that state believe that transgendered people do not have the right to self identity.

The tax money to pay for her surgery, and the fact that she is incarcerated...is a side issue that is allowing people with prejudice to argue against her - and transgendered people everywhere - from the prison system, to the Congressman from the state, to some people in this topic.

I say that because the treatment has been prescribed by multiple medical doctors and upheld by a Judge as a medically necessary treatment for a medical and psychological condition. If this were cancer, it would be a non-issue and she would get many thousands of dollars in care, treatment, and followup.

Just like cancer, this is a medically diagnosed condition and she has an 8th amendment right to treatment.

Finally, I want to share what the American Psychiatric Association openly supports for transgender treatment - FINALLY:

The American Psychiatric Association:

1. Recognizes that appropriately evaluated transgender and gender variant individuals can benefit greatly from medical and surgical gender transition treatments.

2. Advocates for removal of barriers to care and supports both public and private health insurance coverage for gender transition treatment.

3. Opposes categorical exclusions of coverage for such medically necessary treatment when prescribed by a physician.

The American Psychiatric Association:

1. Supports laws that protect the civil rights of transgender and gender variant individuals.

2. Urges the repeal of laws and policies that discriminate against transgender and gender variant people.

3. Opposes all public and private discrimination against transgender and gender variant individuals in such areas as health care, employment, housing, public accommodation, education, and licensing.

4. Declares that no burden of proof of such judgment, capacity, or reliability shall be placed upon these individuals greater than that imposed on any other persons.

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/08/21/721441/apa-issues-position-statements-supporting-transgender-care-and-civil-rights/?mobile=nc



CalifChick -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 11:24:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

The tax money to pay for her surgery, and the fact that she is incarcerated...is a side issue that is allowing people with prejudice to argue against her - and transgendered people everywhere - from the prison system, to the Congressman from the state, to some people in this topic.



We can oppose the decision without being bigoted or prejudiced. It would be nice if people were able to discuss the issue without continually throwing that out to anyone that doesn't agree with them.


quote:



The American Psychiatric Association:

1. Recognizes that appropriately evaluated transgender and gender variant individuals can benefit greatly from medical and surgical gender transition treatments.

2. Advocates for removal of barriers to care and supports both public and private health insurance coverage for gender transition treatment.

3. Opposes categorical exclusions of coverage for such medically necessary treatment when prescribed by a physician.

The American Psychiatric Association:

1. Supports laws that protect the civil rights of transgender and gender variant individuals.

2. Urges the repeal of laws and policies that discriminate against transgender and gender variant people.

3. Opposes all public and private discrimination against transgender and gender variant individuals in such areas as health care, employment, housing, public accommodation, education, and licensing.

4. Declares that no burden of proof of such judgment, capacity, or reliability shall be placed upon these individuals greater than that imposed on any other persons.



Healthcare paid for by the state is neither public nor private health insurance. In fact, it does not involve insurance AT ALL. It does not involve COVERAGE AT ALL.

This situation has nothing to do with insurance and insurance coverage. Sure, petition to have all health insurance policies cover it, I'm all for that. Petition to have Medicare cover it, I'm all for that. Healthcare paid for by the state for inmates? Not so much.




OttersSwim -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 11:36:35 AM)

You oppose the decision because you don't believe it is medically necessary - when multiple medical doctors attending the woman AND a Federal Judge say otherwise.

Sorry, how is that not bias?



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 11:42:52 AM)

Personally I am not saying her diagnosis is incorrect. I haven't read any links, and I really don't care. I don't think she's entitled to SRS**, but she's getting it, so we're done with that part.

I have to say, as a person that's known more transfolk than the "average" reader of the boards here... who the hell said that someone so unbalanced that they will mutilate themselves is in good mental condition for this sort of surgery and transition? I don't know ANYONE who has had the surgery that didn't have a lengthy transition of living full time as a well adjusted female (OR MALE) before surgery was done. IT'S NOT MAGIC, it's not a guarantee of everything being okay. I know transfolk who have never had bottom surgery that are happy campers doing their thing. Some are waiting to save money, some are content as they are. How often do we say that genitalia does not equal gender? Why does it mean that Michelle will be "more" Michelle when she already IS?

Right now, she's in a men's facility, living as a woman? How's that working? How is the transition going to work in a women's facility? If we go with the stereotype that the average US prison population is poor, undereducated, POC, generally not up with the current evolved mindset, how is a person who strangled her wife going to be received? How much extra counselling, how much extra protection from the general prison population, is she going to get?

I don't see this case as helping the cause of trans acceptance at all.




**this is, for me, an indictment of our medical system that allows people to die of cancer and heart disease without treatment... it appalls me that prisoners get better health care than many Americans, especially seniors.



CalifChick -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 11:56:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

You oppose the decision because you don't believe it is medically necessary - when multiple medical doctors attending the woman AND a Federal Judge say otherwise.

Sorry, how is that not bias?


I'm not opposing it because it is SRS. I'm opposing for other reasons as I've outlined above. You really don't understand the concept of medically necessary, do you? It is unethical to perform surgery that is NOT medically necessary; therefore, all medical treatment that a licensed physician is willing to perform and/or prescribes is considered medically necessary BY THAT DOCTOR.



kalikshama -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 11:57:48 AM)

quote:

it appalls me that prisoners get better health care than many Americans, especially seniors.


The judge didn't create 8th Amendment, but felt compelled to enforce it, as he should.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/09/04/judge-orders-sex-change-operation-for-federal-prisoner/

Judge Wolf acknowledged that Mr. Kosilek, a convicted murderer, may receive better care for his disorder than many law-abiding Americans.

“It may seem strange that in the United States citizens do not generally have a constitutional right to adequate medical care, but the Eighth Amendment promises prisoners such care,” he wrote, pointing to a 2011 Supreme Court decision that said providing anything less was “incompatible with the concept of human dignity.”



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 12:00:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

it appalls me that prisoners get better health care than many Americans, especially seniors.


The judge didn't create 8th Amendment, but felt compelled to enforce it, as he should.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/09/04/judge-orders-sex-change-operation-for-federal-prisoner/

Judge Wolf acknowledged that Mr. Kosilek, a convicted murderer, may receive better care for his disorder than many law-abiding Americans.

“It may seem strange that in the United States citizens do not generally have a constitutional right to adequate medical care, but the Eighth Amendment promises prisoners such care,” he wrote, pointing to a 2011 Supreme Court decision that said providing anything less was “incompatible with the concept of human dignity.”



And I am not disputing that. I do find it ironic, considering that institutionalized rape in our prisons is largely ignored, but I love irony!



JstAnotherSub -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 12:13:30 PM)

Reading this the day after writing a victims impact statement to try to keep the two punks who murdered my aunt in prison was not good.

All I can say is, this person should be glad they are still allowed to breathe the oxygen they took from their victim. I find it sickening that, in addition to paying for his housing and food, we also are going to have to pay for this surgery.

This is not a heart transplant, nor emergency surgery of any type. I sincerely hope that someone pulls their head out of their ass before this surgery happens.

It is bad enough that the victims have no rights any more. If this is allowed to go forward, it is a slap in the face to everyone who has ever lost a family member to murder.

How fucking dare anyone call it bigotry for someone to be opposed to this. It is totally wrong for the taxpayers money to be used for such bullshit.

It isn't going to kill him to serve his time in the body he was born with. He can get it changed if he ever gets paroled.

Fuck, this country has gone absolutely fucking insane, all in the name of trying to be politically correct and not offend anyone.

I will be starting one of those online petitions to get this stopped. It probably will not do any good, but it will be a beginning. In the mean time, I will research other avenues available to protest it.

If he wants a sex change, I will be happy to cut his dick off.......holy fucking shit this is ridiculousness!

eta
quote:

Kosilek first sued the Department of Correction in 2000, arguing that its refusal to pay for a sex-change violates her Eighth Amendment right against cruel and unusual punishment. The department has consistently opposed Kosilek’s request.

He didn't mind being cruel and unusual to his victim. Fucking asshole.



Marc2b -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 1:29:20 PM)

quote:

As others have pointed out, there is a substantial mortality rate associated with severe GID.


That mortality rate is not a direct result of GID the way death from a heart attack is. It is the result of depression associated with the GID or violent bigotry on the part of others. Sitting there in his cell, with his balls intact will not kill this guy. If he is suicidal then put him in a straight jacket. Spending that much money so that a murderer can feel good about himself is just not necessary.

quote:

Which the judge has ordered be provided, after it was identified as necessary and then withheld.


Which leads to the question being debated... is the judges decision proper?

quote:

I never said it's a psychosis. Rather, I said that- by your argument, in its original form- even psychosis would not be necessary to treat. ]/quote]

Your conclusion is false. Psychosis can cause a person to harm others but if GID is not a psychosis... ?

If it can be demonstrated that this guy's GID leads to psychosis, then it becomes a different argument.

[quite] I read your words. They were prejudiced.


Against murderers, yes. I admit a prejudice against murderers. I do not like them. My words were not, nor intended to be, prejudice against the transgendered and you cannot prove otherwise. Admit the truth... you had yourself an "oh goody, I get to give my self an ego stroke off by preening myself as morally superior" moment, and you went with it.

quote:

I did not, however, call you a bigot, which would have both (a) moved the statement from the domain of criticizing what was in evidence in your post,


Except that what you thought you saw was not evidenced in my post. I have admitted my error concerning tweakabelle's post... are you unable to do the same with my post?


quote:

into the domain of criticizing you personally beyond the available evidence, and (b) been an error of degree, as bigotry implies hatred or intolerance, not just prejudice and other mere deficits of knowledge and understanding. As suggested, though, I did read your profile, which adds nothing to the picture.


You did criticize me personally beyond the available evidence. To allege discrimination against an entire group of people without cause is to alleged bigotry. While you may have glanced at my profile I do not believe you actually read it... otherwise you could not have honestly drawn the conclusion that you did.

quote:

I applaud you for having put a fresh coat of paint on your prejudices, but also encourage you to deal with their substance.


Now you are just being annoyingly self righteous.

quote:

Am I to understand that you consider the transgendered women you know to be women until and unless they commit a crime, while the cisgendered women you know remain women also after committing a crime? Or are you saying a cisgendered woman also ceases to be a woman in your view when she commits a crime? Do the cisgendered males become female in your world on committing crime? How about transgendered males? Refusing to recognize her established gender is no better than using the term "fat, lazy cunt" about a non-overweight woman that commits a crime, while maintaining that it somehow shows a decent sensitivity to obese people to use their characteristic problem as an insult and that doing so does not display a prejudice on the part of one resorting to that particular insult.


Okay, now you're just playing stupid little word games. I refuse to show respect to one particular murderer on one particular thread and you extrapolate that into this nonsense? Did it ever occur to you that I was just registering my disgust with this particular individual in this particular case? Demanding perfect consistency is nothing more than a cheap way to keep scoring those "I'm morally superior" bullshit points.

quote:

I have a hard time understanding how you arrived at that conclusion. If you could point it out, I can try to be clearer in the future.


I arrived at that conclusion the same way you arrived at your false conclusions about my post... by reading more into it than was there. A common failing among human beings.

quote:

It is a sidebar, not a non-issue. But, as a sidebar, we need not pursue it.


It is a non-issue in this particular argument about this particular case.

quote:

Which is what I answered by noting that your position is either an objection to the availability of prescribed medical care to prison inmates, or an objection to the validity of prescribing this particular treatment for this particular inmate, then I went on to outline a few of the absurd consequences of either position.


You did? Where? I went back and checked and all I saw was some ridiculous extrapolation for the purposes of being snarky.

quote:

That you posited something about criterion for insanity that has its basis in neither fact nor practice, as far as I can tell. A pet peeve.


False. The legal criterion for insanity as a defense to murder is as I stated above. This asshole was not found not guilty by reason of insanity, so that is a moot point. As I said before if he can be demonstrated to be insane now, then there is an argument for the surgery as treatment (not necessarily a conclusive argument, but an argument none-the-less). I, however, do not consider the transgendered to be insane because they are transgendered.



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