RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/10/2012 5:44:23 PM)

FR

Bias alert: I'm the son, grandson, and nephew of public school teachers.

That background means I may not be the most objective reader of this thread. But it also means I have some insight into a teacher's life:

-- the long, uncounted hours spent planning lessons and grading papers (and for HS teachers writing college recommendations, something not in the job description);

-- the requirement in many cases to have or obtain a master's degree, pursued on one's own time and dime;

-- the frustrating phone calls to clueless parents who insist, "But Johnny has no trouble with any other teachers" when you know damn well he does because you lunch with those teachers every day;

-- the need, in the case of a secondary teacher, to manage a hundred or more different students in a single day;

-- the chunk of one's own income spent on a classroom library or supplies because the school or district can't afford them (one of my teacher aunts finally bought a home copier because the school's was so unreliable);

-- the growing testing mania in which one's performance is increasingly based on factors beyond your control;

-- the need to be "on" every moment in a way no officer worker could imagine;

-- the tendency of "blue-ribbon" and "expert" panels on education to include not a single teacher;

-- and the widespread assumption that one is somehow overpaid.

I must confess that when I read a thread like this, I wonder just how long some posters would last at the front of a classroom.



servantforuse -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/10/2012 5:45:10 PM)

This strike will end when the taxpayers say enough is enough. I don't think that will happen anytime soon. The 83 billion in unfunded pension liabilities will continue to rise and the folks of Illinois will pay for it.   



PeonForHer -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/10/2012 5:46:09 PM)

FR

Wow - I thought a lot of people responding here were lovers of the free market. But, apparently, they're rock red socialists! Teachers should only get paid what it's deemed that they 'need' and 'greed' should be outlawed? Of course, that'd be nice but as most balanced and realistic folk know, 'socialism is a great idea but will never work in practice'. In a free market, the laws of supply and demand determine price. Unions engage in some free collective bargaining and thereby influence the market to raise their 'price' - that is, their wages. Seems pretty straightforward to me.



servantforuse -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/10/2012 5:56:58 PM)

Taxpayers can also contribute in the free market. Since they are paying the tab, they can also decide how much to pay teachers and other public employee unions. This is what happened in Wisconsin. A liberal governor didn't run again and we elected a conservative, Scott Walker, who fixed the problem.  



dcnovice -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/10/2012 6:03:29 PM)

quote:

Their strike is pure greed.


The mayor of Chicago seems to view things a little differently:

On Monday morning, 350,000 kids in Chicago found themselves without a classroom to bustle about as the city's teachers went on their first strike in 25 years. The sticking point? A new teacher evaluation system.

While Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel and the local teachers' union disagree on a long list of issues, including planned pay raises and sick day accrual, Emanuel said in a press conference Monday afternoon that the evaluation is the main obstacle to agreement. The new system would eventually use students' standardized test scores as 40 percent of a teacher's yearly evaluation. Teachers who don't improve their students' test scores would be fired.

Emphasis mine.

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/b-cs-chicago-teacher-strike-evaluation-system-looms-201903517.html



dcnovice -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/10/2012 6:11:32 PM)

quote:

Taxpayers can also contribute in the free market. Since they are paying the tab, they can also decide how much to pay teachers and other public employee unions. This is what happened in Wisconsin. A liberal governor didn't run again and we elected a conservative, Scott Walker, who fixed the problem.  

Refresh my memory: Did your tough new governor include the police and firefighters among the "public employees" whose wages and rights he sought to curtail?



graceadieu -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/10/2012 10:35:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

182 actual school days in Wisconsin. That's 6 months..


And the average person works 2000 hours a year. That's 83 days.



erieangel -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/10/2012 11:11:24 PM)

Servant, what you seem to not get is that the average teacher doesn't follow the standard school calendar. Most teachers are in the classroom days or even weeks before his/her students to complete lesson plans, ensure the classroom is stocked and everything in order. They are getting their books from central supply, going shopping for those things the district can't or won't provide them and doing all sorts of menial tasks to prepare for the first day of school.

When school starts, the teacher is often in the building 1/2 hour to 1 hour before students arrive and many don't leave for an hour after school, some not until early to late evening. They are called upon to be there for those "open house" events, to volunteer to coach sports teams and drama clubs, to advise debate teams and the year book staff and all manner of extra curricular activities. In my city, teachers get paid for participating in the extra curriculars, which is how they reach the $50,000-$75,000 annual salaries. However, the starting salary for a teacher in my district is only $17,000.

17 Grand for somebody with a 4 year degree in education, a mountain of debt and an expectation to incur more debt by continuing their education with a show of a certain number of credit hours per year in order to maintain not only employment but PA teaching credentials and licensure.

I would suggest though, that you look into what some superintendents earn. Talk about taking the taxpayers to the cleaners. The former superintendent of my school district, the year before he left, in salary, home, car, and other perks, earned nearly $1 million annually. Luckily, his replacement took a substantial pay reduction--the assistant superintendent moved into the superintendent position and since he owns his own home, we tax payers are not on the hook for that, nor is he putting us on the hook to keep him in a late model car, pay for his kids to go to expensive private schools, or any of the other awful greedy things his boss had done to us tax payers.

There is a superintendent in a small town in NY state who oversees a little more than 1,000 students. And she earns 2X a year than NY city's school chancellor who must oversee over 1 million students. All over the country, there are school superintendents making $200,000; $400,000 and more while teachers are taking the blame for the state of district coffers. And these superintendents often have the backing of the school boards who will vote them raises whenever the superintendents want one so that the supers don't leave for "greener" pastures.



Politesub53 -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/11/2012 3:38:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

This strike will end when the taxpayers say enough is enough. I don't think that will happen anytime soon. The 83 billion in unfunded pension liabilities will continue to rise and the folks of Illinois will pay for it.   



The taxpayers wont have a say, why you even think that is beyond me. Either the City or the teachers will eventually make a compromise.

Nice to see you continually avoid the point that this is exactly how capitalism works.

DC....... Most of us get what you are saying and knew that already. Many also knew teachers dont just sit around at the beach during summer holidays.

I suspect your words are wasted on those with fingers in ears though.



Politesub53 -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/11/2012 3:40:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

182 actual school days in Wisconsin. That's 6 months..


And the average person works 2000 hours a year. That's 83 days.



Dont confuse him with lateral thinking. [;)]



Lucylastic -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/11/2012 4:53:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Bias alert: I'm the son, grandson, and nephew of public school teachers.

That background means I may not be the most objective reader of this thread. But it also means I have some insight into a teacher's life:

-- the long, uncounted hours spent planning lessons and grading papers (and for HS teachers writing college recommendations, something not in the job description);

-- the requirement in many cases to have or obtain a master's degree, pursued on one's own time and dime;

-- the frustrating phone calls to clueless parents who insist, "But Johnny has no trouble with any other teachers" when you know damn well he does because you lunch with those teachers every day;

-- the need, in the case of a secondary teacher, to manage a hundred or more different students in a single day;

-- the chunk of one's own income spent on a classroom library or supplies because the school or district can't afford them (one of my teacher aunts finally bought a home copier because the school's was so unreliable);

-- the growing testing mania in which one's performance is increasingly based on factors beyond your control;

-- the need to be "on" every moment in a way no officer worker could imagine;

-- the tendency of "blue-ribbon" and "expert" panels on education to include not a single teacher;

-- and the widespread assumption that one is somehow overpaid.

I must confess that when I read a thread like this, I wonder just how long some posters would last at the front of a classroom.


You dont have to be objective hon, just not objectionable[;)], and claiming teachers earn too much for too little, is utter bullshit and factually incorrect.
Im with teachers. I couldnt do it in a million years, or for a million dollars. As with most "public workers", the front line staff is always getting the shaft from the "management".
I dont always agree with unions... but I do know how much teachers do on their own time, I spent time helping out the local school when my kids were in KG to grade 6 and got more of an eye opener.



Musicmystery -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/11/2012 4:55:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

I guess an average salary of $76,000.00 (before benefits!!!) and a 16% raise on top of that is not enough for them!

Not to mention, eight weeks vacation in the summer, a week at Christmas, a week in the spring, and several 4 day weekends throughout the year, plus personal and sick days!

http://www.suntimes.com/15054902-761/chicago-teachers-strike-for-first-time-in-25-years-contingency-sites-ready-charters-remain-open.html


You should read something other than headlines. The strike is not about pay.






Owner59 -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/11/2012 8:01:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

I guess an average salary of $76,000.00 (before benefits!!!) and a 16% raise on top of that is not enough for them!

Not to mention, eight weeks vacation in the summer, a week at Christmas, a week in the spring, and several 4 day weekends throughout the year, plus personal and sick days!

http://www.suntimes.com/15054902-761/chicago-teachers-strike-for-first-time-in-25-years-contingency-sites-ready-charters-remain-open.html


You should read something other than headlines. The strike is not about pay.







I doubt any con would take higher pay in a trade off of job security.

Sure...~here`s double your present pay......but you can be fired summarily~....

Thanks MM, I was waiting for someone to point this out.



Yachtie -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/11/2012 8:15:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
In a free market, the laws of supply and demand determine price. Unions engage in some free collective bargaining and thereby influence the market to raise their 'price' - that is, their wages. Seems pretty straightforward to me.


Really? [8|] Unions engage in some free collective bargaining with that political body which it lobbys and supports when its demands are met. The free market is hardly the trough bargaining with that special interest group (government) whom keeps the trough full.



mnottertail -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/11/2012 8:19:04 AM)

Much like corporations do.  We have no free market, so I think we can flush the Ayn Rand asswipe, summarily.

Every country has a government.  They play in the world and the markets.

Let's leave off the Keynes and the Rand and the Smith and so on, and take a look at what's right in front of us.



thompsonx -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/11/2012 8:26:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Cry me a river. With benefits these teachers are nearing or over $100,000 per year. They are on strike to make more money. Rahm Emmanuel needs to hold tough, maybe do a Scott Walker imitation .


Why do you have a problem with how much money someone makes? The fact that the school teacher works in the public sector is not relevant.



thompsonx -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/11/2012 8:29:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Do the math. 365 days in a year, 182 days spent in the classroom = 183 days off. 6 months on, 6 months off.


Could you be any more disingenuous?
They are working under a contract that was arrived at by collective bargaining...why do you have a problem with fulfilling a contract that was negotiatd in good faith and signed by both parties?



thompsonx -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/11/2012 8:31:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I said they "should" be paid by results and obviously that doesn't always happen. There is no shortage of teachers in the US that I know of. When the dust settled in Wisconsin a couple of months ago, some teachers quit to go elsewhere and others replaced them. Happens every day in the private sector..

Perhaps if you were to educate yourself about the number of teachers in this country you would not make such statements.



thompsonx -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/11/2012 8:32:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Bankers are paid, or should be, on the financial results of the company. Teachers salaries are paid by taxpayers. I have no problem with teachers making a nice income, but their wages and benefit packages are no longer sustainable. Illinois, as I mentioned earlier, has unfunded pension liabilities of 83 BILLION..This has to be fixed first.

Once again teachers salaries are not paid by the taxpayers they are paid by the school board. If you think you are paying a cops salary try telling him how to do his job.
You just do not seem to get it. You are a taxpayer you pay taxes you are not anyone's employer...that you think you are speaks volumns about your knowledge of civics.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Highest Paid Teachers in the Country Strike (9/11/2012 8:43:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

182 actual school days in Wisconsin. That's 6 months..


And the average person works 2000 hours a year. That's 83 days.


I like the math on this one.

Teachers show up 182 times per year.

You take the total of all the eight hour shifts and divide them by 24 and that's how you want to do the math?

Alright. We'll use your numbers and your figgerin'.

182 days per year x 8 hours per day = 1456 hrs worked in a year. Now, we'll use your math process:

the average person works 2000 hours per year you divided that by 24 and got 83.33333333

Teachers work 1456 hours / 24 = 60.6666666

So, by your method, teachers work two months out of the year. That keeps things more accurate.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



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