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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 12:05:11 AM   
BenevolentM


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Status: offline 		I suspect that what motivates Islamic radicals is the fear of extinction and the problem is more grave than you may realize. Simply reassuring them that we are not out to get them will achieve nothing. Offering proof that we are not out to get them will achieve nothing as well, because the Darwinian forces acting upon them have nothing to do with anything that anyone is intentionally doing. What they believe in cannot survive the modern world. The only thing they can do is attempt to turn back the clock which is something they cannot do. You can slow the clock which may or may not be desirable according to your point of view, but you cannot stop it. They strive to stop it. Since this cannot be done they seek extinction. On the other hand, they believe that extinction isn't such a bad thing. We are not fighting the Japanese.

In order to avoid war the countries where they reside must crush their movement. Universal agreement has to be achieved on this point. How do we to achieve this universal agreement? Via puritanical moral relativism?

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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 12:11:05 AM   
BenevolentM


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Status: offline 		These are the last desperate acts of a dying culture. The Japanese found a solution, a way to blend the old with the new. Can Islam do the same?

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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 12:16:56 AM   
Thaz


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Joined: 4/28/2012
Status: offline 		BM>

The more extreme elements of Islam might argue they DID find a way to adapt to their cultural decay. A ground roots return to fundements of what they think is Islam. They might well argue that WE are the dying culture. Seems to be working for the Tea Party also.

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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 12:20:18 AM   
BenevolentM


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Status: offline 		Suppose someone were to say, "That's silly! They are expanding." Are they expanding as an igniting sun or are they expanding because their sun has begun to nova because it is dying?

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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 12:29:32 AM   
Thaz


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Status: offline 		Time will tell.

My own responce is that the West and its influence IS in decline. Unca Sam is less willing to be the World's policeman. Will a radical Islam expand to fill some of that gap? Maybe. People are tired of crass materialism and its not sustainable. However I suspect the younger eliterate members of soceity will take a more pragmatic view....the current generation of radicals are actualy quite old. I think the Arab Spring will allow a flourishing of tolerance and opertunity as long as it doesnt get crushed by the old guard. I think there's space for this in the gaps between American/Western retrenchment and the expansion of China, India and other developing nations.

I dont see this as a bad thing. We Brits have been enjoying the decadent phase of crumbling empire for sometime now. Its by far the most enjoyable stage of empire as a personal experience....

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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 12:32:56 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thaz

BM>

The more extreme elements of Islam might argue they DID find a way to adapt to their cultural decay. A ground roots return to fundements of what they think is Islam. They might well argue that WE are the dying culture. Seems to be working for the Tea Party also.


Whether we are or we are not a dying culture as well is beside the point. Think about it logically. Whether we are or we are not a dying culture has no bearing. Their approach worked in the distant past, but we are no longer living in the distant past. A hybrid approach might work and may very well be superior to our approach, but the radicals are not looking for a hybrid approach.

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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 12:34:00 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Suppose someone were to say, "That's silly! They are expanding." Are they expanding as an igniting sun or are they expanding because their sun has begun to nova because it is dying?


That's silly! They ARE expanding. It's the fastest growing religion on the planet.

They're expanding because a) they're having more babies b) they are making more converts.

While your astronomical analogy is entertaining, to suggest that it's a dying culture is deeply silly. Deeply. You may just as well point to the foreign policy adventures of the UK in the late 1800's (just as the British Empire was entering a steep decline) with that of the USA in the early 2000's. This analogy is just as fatuous as yours, but that's the point I'm trying to make.

We're talking about a clash of ideologies that is going to become increasingly important, scary, and difficult over the coming years - and it's going to require a response that is a great deal more "nuanced" than "bomb the fuckers".






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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 12:49:08 AM   
Thaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Whether we are or we are not a dying culture as well is beside the point. Think about it logically. Whether we are or we are not a dying culture has no bearing. Their approach worked in the distant past, but we are no longer living in the distant past. A hybrid approach might work and may very well be superior to our approach, but the radicals are not looking for a hybrid approach.


I think you're under estimating these guys. What we're seeing out there is a _very_ sophisticated aproach to the modern information era. 'We' in the West are still very much a 3rd generation Nation State. Whereas 'They' have bypassed that outmoded concept and have adapted the tribal/ideological framework of medieval times where ones loyalties are more to a concept or a charasmatic leader than a inflexible nation state model.

Its easy to argue that something like that is much more adapatable to the current situation that our Western Political parties that have very little investment from the general population. We no longer think we're the good guys so why should anyone else? The way to actualy get people to buy into the process apears to be to have great PR and media awareness, dumb the message down and ignore facts as the population dont know any because no one is telling them any. This seems to be working for the Taliban and the Tea Party both. THIS scares me. What we need is a charasmatic moderate western politician who's willing to find a fourth way. Unfortunately we dont have one as yet.

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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 1:21:53 AM   
BenevolentM


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Status: offline 		Their alleged sophistication is irrelevant. They are facing internal problems they cannot solve.

Sometimes it is simple and the simplicity of the message is not dumbing you down. I suppose that there are those who are jealous of their balls proclaiming that this is the way and the future like the Star Trek Next Generation, Borg.

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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 1:27:28 AM   
Thaz


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Status: offline 		Thing is 'they' dont NEED to fix any internal problems. BM you're still thinking old fashioned nation states. What problems do 'they' have to fix? 'They' dont have any. 'They' is an idea or concept not a political party or leader.

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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 1:43:52 AM   
BenevolentM


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Status: offline 		If radical Islam were healthy, the existence of Israel would be an annoyance they could easily afford. There would be no need to push the envelope this hard.

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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 2:02:31 AM   
Thaz


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Status: offline 		But why would they? It would be like asking a Tea Party member to ignore the abortion issue, they would neither understand your reasoning or any benefit in doing so.

The existance of the Nation State of Israel is a huge boil on the Arabic mind (not Islam, Arabs) as would it be to the USA if Mexico were granted control of Texas and then expelled most white people only allowing a few in to work as cheap labour.
Right or Wrong it created a huge pool of people who were excluded from their homeland and left poor and resentfull. Perfect breeding ground for extreme views and solutions and a easy 'other' target to focus all hatred on. This extended to the US without whom Israel would cease to exist.

It would be like asking a politcian to ignore his rival having a criminal record. Yes Islam could ignore or preach tolerance of Israel. Many branches DO or at least preach non violent oposition. But there IS an actual injustice and hardship there that has cost thousands of lives. Its like asking the Irish to ignore the potato famine or a Native American to ignore US policy in the 1800's or a Jew to ignore the Nazi's. Aint gunna happen.

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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 2:28:27 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thaz

Thing is 'they' dont NEED to fix any internal problems. BM you're still thinking old fashioned nation states. What problems do 'they' have to fix? 'They' dont have any. 'They' is an idea or concept not a political party or leader.


The notion of internal problems is more general than you are supposing it is. My thinking isn't old thinking verses new thinking. It isn't Pepsi verses Coca Cola.

Let's take women's rights as an example. Why do you suppose women were given the right to vote? Why didn't it happen in the ancient world? Why did it have to wait until the modern era? Islam is facing the same forces that every society on the planet is facing. The Jews aren't behind it nor is America. The forces at work are deeper than this. It killed a way of life in America too, just as it is killing their way of life.

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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 2:45:08 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thaz

But why would they? It would be like asking a Tea Party member to ignore the abortion issue, they would neither understand your reasoning or any benefit in doing so.

The existance of the Nation State of Israel is a huge boil on the Arabic mind (not Islam, Arabs) as would it be to the USA if Mexico were granted control of Texas and then expelled most white people only allowing a few in to work as cheap labour.
Right or Wrong it created a huge pool of people who were excluded from their homeland and left poor and resentfull. Perfect breeding ground for extreme views and solutions and a easy 'other' target to focus all hatred on. This extended to the US without whom Israel would cease to exist.

It would be like asking a politcian to ignore his rival having a criminal record. Yes Islam could ignore or preach tolerance of Israel. Many branches DO or at least preach non violent oposition. But there IS an actual injustice and hardship there that has cost thousands of lives. Its like asking the Irish to ignore the potato famine or a Native American to ignore US policy in the 1800's or a Jew to ignore the Nazi's. Aint gunna happen.


Being in possession of a little truth does not imply that you are in possession of the truth. These things do not drive the situation as you presuppose. There are hidden forces at work. Peace by necessity is arrived at through agreement where agreement with self is a degenerate case. What reason do we have to believe that these people are capable of forgive and forget? Every time you appease them you encourage them to hold old resentments close.

Whether it be good or evil, they cannot have what they want.

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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 2:46:45 AM   
Thaz


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Status: offline 		Nope.

I dont accept your views of Islam BM. Actualy Islam can be pretty liberal on womens rights, and was for a long time in advance of Christianity in things like protecting a womans personal property. You are confusing backward failing states persecution of womens rights, or at least their failure to protect them, and the excuse of 'Islam' for an actual concerted position by that faith. You apear to have a very simplistic view of the world, politics, religion and how they interact which i do not accept.

We in the West have by and large decided to stick with the concept and not letter of our faiths, as have many Islamic nations. What happens in darkest whatever-stan in the name of Islam is of no more truth to the faith as a whole than what happens in deepest bumfuck Indiana in the name of Christ. Tea Party or Taliban do no define an entire faith or people and shame on you if you let it. I've read both the Quoran and the Bible and they're carrying pretty much the same message, I choose to live by neither.

Now extreme violence advocating radicals of either faith are people I can get behind persecuting some though.

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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 3:41:00 AM   
BenevolentM


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Status: offline 		A person who feels that all things are equal, is a person who will betray you.

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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 3:43:39 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Some interesting food for thought:

Religious News Service: 12 Essential points about the offensive film on the Prophet Muhammad, and the subsequent reactions in Libya & Egypt

I'm not sold on all his points, but he raises some interesting thoughts.



Thank you for the link DC, as you say, it is food for though. I wonder how many here have read it ?

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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 3:51:58 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

A person who feels that all things are equal, is a person who will betray you.


<boggles>

What on earth is that actually meant to mean?

Have you just cracked open a fortune cookie by any chance?

sheesh.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 3:59:55 AM   
Thaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

A person who feels that all things are equal, is a person who will betray you.


And your point is?

There are some nasty mean spirited violent types out there at the extremes of many religions and or politics. We cannot allow ignornance and hate to define us or our views of entire peoples. I no more hold the AlQ fucks who murdered the American Ambassador equal to average native of Benghazi than I do hold the average native of Florida to be equal to Terry Jones and his supporters. I dont even hold Terry Jones to be the equal to AlQ for all my occasional references to American Taliban as I hold the former to be contemptable and the latter to be murderous and legitimate targets having conducted hostile acts of violence against allies and my countrymen and women.




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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/17/2012 7:08:31 AM   
xBullx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
It seems they want to hold all Americans accountable for the comments of a few. Yet it seems we're not supposed to do the same? Frankly I doubt all Arabs hate America, though I am concerned that it is possible that most, if not all Muslims have a discontented feeling towards the west, as they like to call us.


I think that holding all Arab people accountable for the actions of a few will only cause us problems. I mean, be angry at all of them if you want, whatever - but in our foreign policy, we have to distinguish between our friends and our enemies in the Middle East. And people that could be swayed to become friends or enemies. During the attack on the consulate in Libya, there were friendly Libyan militia groups that tried to defend the consulate against the terrorists. We have to figure out how to win over new allies in the Muslim world and improve our image, while also working against our enemies.

And for what it's worth, I think that being "the better man" and not just going "well our enemies are doing _____, why shouldn't we?" is part of the way to do it. I read an article a couple years ago, I might have to try to dig it up, written by a former member of a Muslim terrorist group. IIRC, he said that what changed his heart and made him quit was that he was to prison without a trial in Egypt for years, and Western civil liberties groups kept trying to help him while his terrorist buddies did nothing. He basically realized that the people in the West he hated actually cared a lot more about justice, fairness, human rights etc than his side ever did, and gave up being a terrorist after he was released. Obviously that's just one guy, but I feel like always holding the moral upper ground and being the proverbial "light on the hill" really could help us.



Actually Education is the key to the whole thing. On a side note I’d like to point out that once upon a time the Catholic Church didn't allow its members to read the bible for themselves. They were to have it interpreted to them by the clergy. It is much easier to shape, manipulate and control ignorant folk.

I make this point due to the fact I was once witness to a comment from someone I felt was in the know, that a big part of "W's" plan for the Iraq War was to help influence an education and social revolution of sorts within a country of the Middle East that had the economic resources to enable it to sustain alienation from other Islamic countries as it moved to a more moderate demeanor. Basically if the people of Iraq were able to rise up from tyranny and grow as a people both socially and financially they would realize that the west wasn't really all that bad and they that our ways are certainly less oppressive than theirs.

But it's important to remember that "W" couldn't come right out and announce this idea to the world. It would offend a great many of the Middle Eastern Nations that aren't openly aggressive towards us. Alright it seems “W” did have a good number of other problems he didn’t have a plan for in said conflict, but had we not made such a rushed and careless exit from Iraq simply for political reason we might have been able to advance such a notion; and with a little luck we may still see this effect. Though it should seem obvious enough that the Muslim Brotherhood and other Extremist contingents want to prevent such an event.

In any event, I think your line of thought is rather similar to such an idea. And this is indeed the way that I feel about a shared future with all parts of the world; education and understanding, as well as fair and mutually beneficial financial, business and social interaction.


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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