articles on cultural feminization? (Full Version)

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petwolf22 -> articles on cultural feminization? (6/12/2006 5:09:18 PM)

i am trying to put together a speech for my toastmasters group on the feminization of the us culture (not necessarily the rightness or wrongness of it, just that it exists) and an interesting article i found on possible chemical reasons for it. 

Just wondering if anyone can recommend any reliable, relatively unbiased sources for articles on the feminization of the US culture and examples of how it has happened?

i know there was a thread on it a while back, i've looked a bit and haven't found anything.

thanks!




petwolf22 -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/12/2006 6:12:05 PM)

never mind




Level -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/12/2006 6:22:35 PM)

Christina Hoff Sommers - The War Against Boys
 
Good book.




petwolf22 -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/12/2006 6:30:00 PM)

thanks




Level -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/12/2006 6:49:49 PM)

You're welcome.




caitlyn -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/12/2006 7:04:20 PM)

Any article you find to prove this, will be about as useful as articles that insist there is a man in the moon and he is made of cream cheese.
 
There is nothing tangible that people can't have today, that they could have had seventy-five years ago. There is no feminization. It is all an illusion invented by people that need something to blame for everything.




petwolf22 -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/12/2006 7:42:45 PM)

Actually one of the articles i found discusses the changes that have occurred in society (as characteristics traditionally attributed to women) with the emphasis that we need to find a way to not attribute characteristics as "male" or "female" but as simply human.   Therefore not necessarily wrong for either gender to be--a man being caring doesn't mean being feminine, and a woman being independent is not being masculine; it's just a trait of being human that we all develop to different degrees based on our environments, ethnicities, religions, etc.

So i guess i was more looking for evidence of the changes that have occurred in our society where certain characteristics are espoused more than others.




caitlyn -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/12/2006 7:48:09 PM)

Evidence will probably be a lot harder to find than speculation and opinion.
 
I think your focus on human, rather than male or female, is very wise on your part. You may be able to make a case for generalized human trait.
 
Good luck. [:D]




Estring -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/12/2006 8:20:29 PM)

I think you should definitely read " The War Against Boys" to see the damage that is being done to boys because of the "feminization" of the society. Go to DennisPrager.com and check out his archives. He has spoken quite often about this, and I think you will find much information for your speech.




petwolf22 -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/12/2006 9:53:27 PM)

odd that the changes in society have only been termed "feminization" because they were traits commonly attributed to women in the past.

i agree from what i've read thus far that what's being done to boys now is similar to what was being done to women in the past and neither one is right.    These are all human  traits we have- aggressiveness, passiveness, caring, empathy, capability, independence, forcefulness, whatever...and each human contains that characteristic to different degrees.  And all parts of our life, gender, ethnicity, religion, parental environment, school environment, etc. play a role in how each one of those characteristics is developed and to what degree.   Thus an aggressive woman is not going against her nature or losing her femininity, and a sensitive man is not effeminate, they're just being who they are and that's okay.  The trick is to raise them in an open enough environment so that they develop more equal levels of a variety of characteristics that are viewed as positive human personality traits in both men and women. i think that's being a more well-rounded person in general.

Thanks for the help, i will check out that site.  i didn't mean to really start a thread or anything about this.  i just knew it's an oft discussed subject on here and was looking for some resources.




Kedikat -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/13/2006 12:02:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: petwolf22

Actually one of the articles i found discusses the changes that have occurred in society (as characteristics traditionally attributed to women) with the emphasis that we need to find a way to not attribute characteristics as "male" or "female" but as simply human.   Therefore not necessarily wrong for either gender to be--a man being caring doesn't mean being feminine, and a woman being independent is not being masculine; it's just a trait of being human that we all develop to different degrees based on our environments, ethnicities, religions, etc.

So i guess i was more looking for evidence of the changes that have occurred in our society where certain characteristics are espoused more than others.


I agree. Society has been changing ever since it began. Certain divisions are no longer relevant due to machinery and such. Male and female are more free to converge on something more universally human. There will always be differences. But most are obsolete. The arguement can be made for women being more masculine, men being more feminine. I prefer to view it as being more free.

I do object to being considered less civilized or less of a human being, merely due to your gender. Or blaming history upon gender and holding those born to a gender as responsible for it. Society and it's follies were commited by human beings living in their time, with it's limitations.





Termyn8or -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/13/2006 2:24:25 AM)

Feminization, in a forum like this usually means something else. When you are talking about broad sweeping changes in the whole of society you have a different can of worms. The old societal norms were created by societal needs. Of course religion came and screwed it all up.

I have a theory that people of old were much smarter than today's people. They had to be innovative to survive. We do not.

Now let's go way back, like in the Troglodite song. Now you got people who of course hunt, maybe fish (with rocks maybe) but they survive. Later, after trial and error finding out which plants feed them and which kill them, they decide to plant fields.

Now Men and Women naturally come together and this is how it was. Eventually that Woman gets pregnant. There is no Enfamil, no Similac, nor baby bottle in which to put it. Breast fed. Now imagine a Woman breast feeding as she tills the field. What should the Man be doing ? That doesn't work, so the Man went out, reaped and sowed while the Woman fed the child. The breasts are attached to the Woman so there is not much choice.

So over the generations the Man learns about reaping and sowing, that you need to plant before you can harvest. The Woman in the meantime learns to know when children need nourishment, NOW. Thus the Men learned to think to the future, prepare for future needs while the Woman took care of the more immediate needs. Over the millenia the two ideologies became symbiotic, and resulted in the institution of marriage, and this was well before religion came.

Because of their respective roles in life, Men became stronger physically than Women, but on the flipside, Women started to think about attracting the right Man, for survival, for survival of the offspring. It has, of course, developed since then.

So if you think of affecting immediate needs, that is, in a way effeminate. If you think long term, that is masculine thinking. This is not simply an opinion. Going to another culture the Yin/Yang concept is nearly identical. Perhaps the Moslems take it too far, indeed, but it is based on human nature.

So now, to agree with you (446%) the thing now is to fix it now, not to fix it right. They treat symptoms, not the disease. They keep patching roads that should be torn out. People will put 125 cans of "fix-a-flat" in their tire instead of having it fixed or replaced at a much lower cost.

It is for real Men of the society to say "Stop doing this, we are going to fix it right. But now the lines are blurred. The distinction is disappearing as more and more males take the easy way out, and at the same time more and more females say "No, let's fix it right".

Don't get me wrong, Women can think ahead and do, but because of conditions a long time ago, Men are more suited for it, or at least used to be.

"Or at least used to be" is the key phrase here. Yes, we do not have more people, Men or Women thinking of the long term. Yes we do have agencies putting bandaids so to speak on very deep problems. Over the millenia Women have been conditioned to accept circumstances. I'll bet my bottom dollar that a Woman coined the phrase "You can't fight city hall". In the olden days the Man would go out with his buddies and come back "City hall is gone". You see Men see that we can't take shit from anyone. Women see the shit and want to return it and get revenge, we Men see it as an oppotunity to go kill a bunch of people, and burn their precious city hall to the ground. This is indeed the only way to keep them down. We see that, Women do not.

I see that, problem is most males do not.

So yes, society is indeed feminized, and once you really know what it means you see it so much more clearly. This is not to put Women down, not at all. After all somebody does have to think of those day to day needs. NEEDS. Even without children the Man would need food right ? Thing is, when it comes to directing the affairs of a household, the Woman's point of view needs to be balanced, or reconciled with the Man's point of view. I bet when times were tough they communicated really well.

T




pahunkboy -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/13/2006 3:30:23 AM)

....shades of grey.  3 sentences to say "no". Spin maybe.

I propose- that we live in a society, that what matters, is increasingly legalistic, and has little to do with right and wrong.

Any little thing today- and one can be sued in civil court, or brought up on criminal charges.

So- I wouldnt say a feminization has occured.

Consider that survival of the fittest...ok...hence highly skilled or talented guys...and very bad boys in prison, which has doubled in the past 20 years. So the "fittest" gene is weeding out the meekish.  [talk to me....Im still thinking this one out...]

More of dances of grey- as apposed to black and white.

Today POWER, isnt really brute muscle... but a savy mind.  Perhaps that is feminization. Beat the shit out of a guy, or get him charged and his ass slammed in jail. Which is more frightening to ...[him]




meatcleaver -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/13/2006 3:37:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

....shades of grey.  3 sentences to say "no". Spin maybe.
Today POWER, isnt really brute muscle... but a savy mind.  Perhaps that is feminization. Beat the shit out of a guy, or get him charged and his ass slammed in jail. Which is more frightening to ...[him]


Chomsky puts it nicely.

“The country was founded on the principle that the primary role of government is to protect property from the majority, and so it remains.”

Things have little to do with male or female but how rich someone is which is why western capitalist countries are legalistic. 95% of US wealth is owned by 5% of the population, everyone else is fighting over crumbs. Statistics are similar but not as extreme in other western countries. It's pointless having wealth and not being able to enjoy it because you live behind a fence. The rich in the west have got things sussed.




caitlyn -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/13/2006 9:18:38 AM)

I think you've hit on the heart of the matter.
 
Anyone, male or female, can have anything they want, as long as they have enough money to pay for it. Too many people want to find something like feminism or anti-feminism, to blame for things they feel they are being denied ... when simple economics is usually the greatest limiting factor.
 
Then we have the continual studies about how boys are suffering educational discrimination. I'm not that far out of public High School, and can only say that we all took the same courses, boys and girls. Required courses were those traditional "bastions of feminism" like English, Math, Texas Politics, History. [;)]
 
Any of this can be spun however we want. Take for example, the private university I attend. The requirements to get in here are very high, and the only people I know of that were given a break on these requirements, were the boys on the nationally ranked baseball team. Now, I could scream foul (pun not intended) and claim that boys are getting a break ... or I can just be honest and admit that this team is the best our school has to offer, and a focus of much pride for everyone affiliated with the university. It has nothing to do with them being the "men's" team ... it has everything to do with them being a team that has produced a national championship not all that long ago, and competes for one every year.




Termyn8or -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/13/2006 10:55:32 AM)

Interesting point. There is an extreme gender bias when it comes to higher education. I have seen it. This may not be intentional though. My buddy's son got a free ride through one of the top highschools in the country and is now enoying the same at UWM, another highly ranked school. This all because of a fellowship of alumni at the---all boys highschools he attended. His sister, even with better grades is highly unlikely to get the same. Don't get me wrong, the kid worked, but if he were a she he wouldn't have gotten what he got.

Add to that the greater proliferation a Men's sports and you have an extremely lopsided situation. Wrong ? sure, solution ? I am all ears.

Perhaps what is needed is for colleges to again become places of academics. Do universities in Europe get in trouble for buying their star athletes fancy cars ? What is the difference between a car and free tuition ? Answer, probably a few grand, a drop in the bucket.

I know a Woman who restored her own classic car as a teen, meanwhile her brother became a chef. She says Dad was proud of them just the same, and it's great that he wasn't one of those old fuddy duddies that see gender in an occupation.

The gender differences I mentioned are all but gone, and though they occurred naturally, what is happening now is occurring, for the most part, naturally. For good or for bad, it is happening.

The forces of social engineering are slowly removing the uniqueness of Men and Women, whether it is intentionally induced or not. But the bias in certain things still remains. Actually this sounds like something impelled by humans, nature wouldn't make such mistakes.

Realizing the innate differences between Men and Women, I was never too thrilled about having a Woman President, but now, after all this I would be willing to givr it a try, as long as it's not Hillary Clinton. GWB does not think like a Man, nor does he think like a Woman, the point ? He doesn't think. We are in big big trouble in this country and he has made it so much worse so fast it'll make your head spin.

The US is now like the Titanic, absolutely positively unsinkable, but taking on water at an alarming rate. Ignorance is bliss, and there is alot of bliss. OK, intelligent people can be happy at times. Go home to your house and hearth, your mate, children if any and yes, you are happy. But the next day rolls around and you have to go out there in the world and see how things are. We are indeed fighting over crumbs. The US has singularly exceed almost all nations in history in the disparity between poor and rich, without having a revolution that is. History teaches that when the disparity reaches a certain level a revolution will occur.

Two factors have changed this maxim in the US and most industrialized countries today, one is conditioning of the subjects to accept the "trespasses" of the powers that be. The other is the extreme military strength of governments.

Anyway, I will stop for now. I thought this needed to be said but I don't want to hijack the thread.

T




petwolf22 -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/13/2006 12:37:52 PM)

So can anyone think of any traits that should be solely masculine or solely feminine, rather than just human?  For example, compassion is something i think everyone should have (to different degrees), but when i asked my fiance all he could come up with was "nurturing/caregiving" should be a solely female characteristic.  i disagree, as i think men are and can be this way to different degrees (male doctors, taking care of animals, priests, etc.). i watched my fiance's nurturing side come out when we found an abandoned kitten while in Mexico.  He was the first to pick it up.

i couldn't think of one human trait (that's generally seen as positive) that shouldn't be attributed and upheld and practiced by both genders.  Negative characteristics aren't generally desirable in either gender.

Any ideas?




OnyxGoddess -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/13/2006 12:50:43 PM)

strength (physical) is usually attributed to men.  round full figures to women.  I don't care if a woman can bench her own body weight I would just like her not to look like a man or for a man to look like a woman.  of course i'm just talking physical characteristics and again just what I would look for in my MATE i believe being loving and nurturing compassionate intelligent should be in all humans and not gender specific




caitlyn -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/13/2006 1:16:52 PM)

The example you gave of the boy getting money from his alumni group at his all-boys school ... is a perfect example of my point that you can "spin" almost anything into bias towards a sex, if you really want to.
 
Think this through for a moment. I bet there are as many guys that are not getting money from that boy's alumni group (like total strangers for instance) as there are girls that aren't getting money ... so exactly how is that a bias favoring men?
 
Simple answer ... it isn't. It's just another example of how educational opportunity is not applied evenly to anyone, male or female.
 
Sports teams ... well, I know quite a few girls that are getting tuition paid by playing sports. That there are more men, isn't a bias towards men and against women ... it's just the reality that men's sports draw more fans, and the school it motivated to attract better players by offering financial advantages. Perfect evidence of this, is the University of Tennessee's Lady Vol's basketball team, which draws a ton of fans and the players get a 100% free ride through college.
 
I don't believe there is any bias in our society towards either sex. Men are men, and thank goodness for that. Guys ROCK! What a boring world it would be without them. Women are women, and thank goodness for that. Chicks RULE! What a boring world it would be without them.
 
As a girl, I don't want to be just like the guys. I don't even want to be even with the guys, and am certainly not going to be stupid enough to bitch if I'm not ... because there are lots of girls I'm not just like, and quite a few I'm not even with.  




petwolf22 -> RE: articles on cultural feminization? (6/13/2006 1:45:37 PM)

Interesting point.  i know so far as personal attractions go we're each going to be interested in different body types, but hard to generalize that all women want strong men and all men want curvy, at least semi-voluptuous women.

i guess that's why i think i can't even view this cultural shift as "feminizing," because these are traits desirable in ALL humans, to different degrees.  Maybe it's just a shifting of priorities, that's really gone from one end of the spectrum to another, and it's just humanity trying to balance itself out and find that happy medium.




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