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RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 5:08:01 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

the people that did build the roads and infrastructure got paid, are getting paid, and will get paid for their work. With businesses paying taxes, owners paying taxes, they had a hand in paying the people that built the infrastructure. Simply be saying that without the infrastructure having been built, their businesses wouldn't be there demeans everything those owners have done to build their businesses on the foundations their taxes paid for.

Obama did not say their businesses would not be there. He said they had help getting there. The workers who built the roads also paid taxes on their wages, so labor contributes twice. Also, they purchased the goods and services offered by the businesses. That is three contributions they make to the success of business: labor, taxes, and purchases.


I see the building of infrastructure as a commonality for everyone. Everyone paid for it. Everyone has the opportunity to use it.

Were people forced to make purchases from the business? If they made purchases of their own choosing, then they did so to meet a need, not to support a business. So, again, their purchase profited them, as it also profited the business. That, again, makes them even.

The people who actually supplied the labor to build the infrastructure were paid (and those who maintain the infrastructure are paid and will continue to be paid for their service). Again, that has evened out.

quote:


And how are the business owners demeaned? They do not pay taxes unless they have earned some profits. Their taxes come after the building of the infrastructure and subsidies the federal govenment supplies to industries. Demeaned? What do they want in addition to profits? Blue ribbons? Medals? What sort of entrepreneurial endevor is that? The poor dears had their feelings hurt?


The businesses may not pay taxes until profits are earned, but the business owners pay taxes if they take pay.

What do they want in addition to profits? How about we start with getting to keep their profits? How about not being demonized for making a profit and/or being successful? How about not belittling their sacrifices and the risks they took to get where they are?

Very interesting read:

http://pjmedia.com/zombie/2012/07/18/the-ultimate-takedown-of-obamas-you-didnt-build-that-speech/?singlepage=true

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 5:11:06 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

Yes, context matters. Yes, it mattered when Obama said what he said. And, when the President says that "you didn't build that" with regards to the roads or the infrastructure, he is forgetting that the people that did build the roads and infrastructure got paid, are getting paid, and will get paid for their work. With businesses paying taxes, owners paying taxes, they had a hand in paying the people that built the infrastructure. Simply be saying that without the infrastructure having been built, their businesses wouldn't be there demeans everything those owners have done to build their businesses on the foundations their taxes paid for. And, that is the context that have argued against the President's comments in. Call all the BS you want. It ain't going to get you anywhere with me.

And that business' customers built that owner's business.
It can quite easily be turned around.


Yep, those customers took a financial risk and offered services without knowing they would succeed. Customers gain benefit from the business. A business will not succeed if unless it can provide a benefit to its customer.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 5:14:52 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
What makes you think I want,or need,to get "anywhere with" you.
I still call bullshit because that Obama quote wasn't used in context by the right,it was constantly and deliberately parsed and held up as something it most certainly wasn't.


Oh, so now I'm supposed to answer for everything "the right" says and does? Do you really want to play that game? How about you hold me accountable to what I say and do, not what "the right" says and does?



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 5:19:32 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Elitism isn't simply governing of the many by a few. As I pointed out before, elitism is also snobbery, arrogance and snidely looking down on others as inferior to you. You show that quite well, and that is the elitism Santorum was talking about.

When someone criticizes biology by demanding to see a crocoduck or quoting genesis my not taking them seriously as an equal on the subject isn't arrogance. They are the ones being arrogant when they expect us to take them seriously despite their ignorance.


Um, there are times when that can be arrogant, but it depends on how you treat them. Simply ignoring their inputs when it is clear they are bereft of any sort of fact isn't arrogant or elitist. But, if you (and I'm not saying you have, nor am I using "you" in the specific, but the general sense) mock them and patronize them, then that is arrogant and elitist.

I don't see how your response applies to what I posted.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 5:30:50 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

The businesses may not pay taxes until profits are earned, but the business owners pay taxes if they take pay.


I'm being nitpicky but that's incorrect.

I pay taxes whether I make a dollar or not.
Gross receipts tax, Franchise Excise tax, professional privelege tax, personal property tax, real property tax and Im sure theres a couple more that I havent thought of cause its early and I havent had coffee yet.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 5:58:20 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Mittens latest remarks about 47% of Americans being "victims", and "dependent" on "entitlements" from Govt, and not paying income taxes are strong evidence that Mittens shares St. Santorum's views about ordinary people, or to put that a bit more accurately, Mittens and St. Santorum are united in their contempt for ordinary people.

How hilarious to see a multi-millionaire Wall St financial shark trying to criticise ordinary people for being the "elite". It is something I would expect to see in a Month Python sketch. It really does show how out of touch Mittens is with the struggles and issues that face ordinary people.

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RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 6:37:35 AM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

@mnottertail: you were wrong, and are wrong, and will be wrong again. Elitism isn't simply governing of the many by a few. As I pointed out before, elitism is also snobbery, arrogance and snidely looking down on others as inferior to you. You show that quite well, and that is the elitism Santorum was talking about.



Well since I have never said, nor inferred, nor by dint of imprecise language,  hinted, alluded, indicated or otherwise expounded that elitism is government by the few (that already has a word, and that word is republicanism) there doesn't seem to be much of a perch to call me wrong from.

I am once again forced to agree with GotSteel in this matter and exend and revise my position to one of:

The question is, what honest hearing and consideration does a man owe to each and every idea, that is espoused by every untutored cretin that passes by and consists of outright lie, innuendo, admissions that they have no actual knowledge of the subject and so on?

In my view, I owe none whatsoever, I am not a socialist.





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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 7:20:29 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Mittens latest remarks about 47% of Americans being "victims", and "dependent" on "entitlements" from Govt, and not paying income taxes are strong evidence that Mittens shares St. Santorum's views about ordinary people, or to put that a bit more accurately, Mittens and St. Santorum are united in their contempt for ordinary people.
How hilarious to see a multi-millionaire Wall St financial shark trying to criticise ordinary people for being the "elite". It is something I would expect to see in a Month Python sketch. It really does show how out of touch Mittens is with the struggles and issues that face ordinary people.


The sad fact of the matter, tweakabelle, is that more and more people are becoming dependent on government. We have generations that know nothing but the welfare life, and have been raised to accept welfare as the way to go. Now, there are still many people who are on welfare that won't be there forever, and there is no real reason (or attempt) to defund the welfare system. It's all about getting the necessary help to the ones who need it, and getting the lazy leeches off their asses and off the system (note: those who truly need the help are not the lazy leeches).

When you have nearly 50% of the people not paying income taxes, any plan to raise taxes on some of them will be met with resistance and will be used as rhetoric fodder for your opponent(s). Promising to not raise taxes on Group A, but to do so on Group B so Group A can get even more, is, essentially, buying the votes of Group A. Since Group A is much greater than Group B, it's okay to lose Group B, as long as you're gaining or keeping Group A. Without Constitutional limits, this sort of bribery can (and will) continue and grow.

Santorum's message is not the same as what Romney stated. Not by any stretch.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 7:25:08 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
@mnottertail: you were wrong, and are wrong, and will be wrong again. Elitism isn't simply governing of the many by a few. As I pointed out before, elitism is also snobbery, arrogance and snidely looking down on others as inferior to you. You show that quite well, and that is the elitism Santorum was talking about.

Well since I have never said, nor inferred, nor by dint of imprecise language,  hinted, alluded, indicated or otherwise expounded that elitism is government by the few (that already has a word, and that word is republicanism) there doesn't seem to be much of a perch to call me wrong from.
I am once again forced to agree with GotSteel in this matter and exend and revise my position to one of:
The question is, what honest hearing and consideration does a man owe to each and every idea, that is espoused by every untutored cretin that passes by and consists of outright lie, innuendo, admissions that they have no actual knowledge of the subject and so on?
In my view, I owe none whatsoever, I am not a socialist.


Wasn't it you that said something about definitions?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/republicanism

    quote:

    re·pub·li·can (r-pbl-kn)
    adj.
    1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a republic.
    2. Favoring a republic as the best form of government.
    3. Republican Of, relating to, characteristic of, or belonging to the Republican Party of the United States.
    n.
    1. One who favors a republic as the best form of government.
    2. Republican A member of the Republican Party of the United States.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 7:28:30 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Well, be that as it may it should not be news to anyone that there is a greying  (or graying  if you prefer) of America, and a great many of those folks are retired or infirm and recieving social security and are not paying taxes upon it (hey, remember McCain once thought about taxing it?)

Anyway, carry on with the mumbo jumbo, but until you can delineate numbers or percentages of each strata in the 47% who do not pay Federal Tax (but do pay all other taxes) you are kinda pounding your pud on the issue. 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 7:31:00 AM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Wasn't it you that said something about definitions?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/republicanism
    quote:

    re·pub·li·can (r-pbl-kn)
    adj.
    1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a republic.
    2. Favoring a republic as the best form of government.
    3. Republican Of, relating to, characteristic of, or belonging to the Republican Party of the United States.
    n.
    1. One who favors a republic as the best form of government.
    2. Republican A member of the Republican Party of the United States.




Yeah, you get what you pay for, sport.  So, you have a circular definition there from the free dictionary.  Tell you what, don't be a republican, drill down and see what a republican form of government might be, get back to me.  You might as well learn something.  I know you might consider that elitist, but hey, be magnanimous once, and give it a shot.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 7:52:06 AM   
hot4bondage


Posts: 403
Joined: 7/29/2009
Status: offline 		~FR~

Looking at his position on a variety of social issues, isn't Santorum elitist by his own definition? He "educated" himself with a bible, so he believes he has the right to tell you what to do. Like all statists, he thinks he knows better than you, so he wants to use your government to protect you from yourself.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 7:55:26 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yup, many of these old boys are cramming for their doublespeak finals.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 11:53:17 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Santorum has no need to do any "cramming",such finals would be a "walk in the park" for him.
Hell,he will receive his Doctorate after this election season...a few more hours spent lying about his good friend Mitt on the campaign trai and he is all set

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 2:40:21 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Wasn't it you that said something about definitions?
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/republicanism
    quote:

    re·pub·li·can (r-pbl-kn)
    adj.
    1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a republic.
    2. Favoring a republic as the best form of government.
    3. Republican Of, relating to, characteristic of, or belonging to the Republican Party of the United States.
    n.
    1. One who favors a republic as the best form of government.
    2. Republican A member of the Republican Party of the United States.


Yeah, you get what you pay for, sport.  So, you have a circular definition there from the free dictionary.  Tell you what, don't be a republican, drill down and see what a republican form of government might be, get back to me.  You might as well learn something.  I know you might consider that elitist, but hey, be magnanimous once, and give it a shot.


My bad. Didn't copy all the germane info.

From the same link (nifty, eh?)

    quote:

    republicanism
    the principles of a theory of government in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and exercised by representatives they elect directly or indirectly and by an elected or nominated president.


To further define our form of government, I ask you to feast your eyes on James Madison's defense of the US Constitution as written in The Federalist #39:
    quote:

    If we resort for a criterion to the different principles on which different forms of government are established, we may define a republic to be, or at least may bestow that name on, a government which derives all its powers directly or indirectly from the great body of the people, and is administered by persons holding their offices during pleasure, for a limited period, or during good behavior. It is essential to such a government that it be derived from the great body of the society, not from an inconsiderable proportion, or a favored class of it; otherwise a handful of tyrannical nobles, exercising their oppressions by a delegation of their powers, might aspire to the rank of republicans, and claim for their government the honorable title of republic.


This was not a learning experience for me, but rather a confirmation experience.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 4:56:21 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It is something I would expect to see in a Month Python sketch.



Pssst Tweakable........ Is this like a Mony Python sketch, only longer ?

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 5:41:13 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I don't see how your response applies to what I posted.

Seriously....ok, I'll go through it again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
As I pointed out before, elitism is also snobbery, arrogance and snidely looking down on others as inferior to you. You show that quite well, and that is the elitism Santorum was talking about.

Ignorant is inferior to educated, stupid is inferior to smart and truthiness is inferior to facts. That's not me being arrogant, that's just reality.

When Santorum and his ilk have the arrogant audacity to attempt to participate in discussions about the governance of our country with smart people. When they put their truthiness up against the knowledge that said smart people have spent years of their lives accumulating personally, not to mention thousands of years as a group...

Well such stupid people have rightfully earned condemnation. They have no business expecting to be taken as equals, the idea is ludicrous.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Um, there are times when that can be arrogant, but it depends on how you treat them. Simply ignoring their inputs when it is clear they are bereft of any sort of fact isn't arrogant or elitist. But, if you (and I'm not saying you have, nor am I using "you" in the specific, but the general sense) mock them and patronize them, then that is arrogant and elitist.


It's ridiculous to expect smart people to be quiet because stupid people are talking, that's so ass backwards. If our government has any hope of functioning is really needs to be the other way around.


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 5:44:57 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

"Speaking Saturday at the Values Voters Summit, Rick Santorum said that “smart people” would never side with conservatives."


Well I have to admit that I would question the sanity of anyone who backed little ricky, but that has nothing to do with party lines. I just think he is an ass. I do find it funny as hell that all of a sudden the left is taking what he says seriously. I guess it doesn't matter how much of an ass they thought he was before as long as he is slamming the right now.

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RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 5:52:20 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Tell you what, don't be a republican, drill down and see what a republican form of government might be, get back to me.  You might as well learn something.  I know you might consider that elitist, but hey, be magnanimous once, and give it a shot.


Would you mind walking me through it?

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Rick Santorum finally speaks truth - 9/18/2012 5:52:39 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I don't see how your response applies to what I posted.

Seriously....ok, I'll go through it again.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
As I pointed out before, elitism is also snobbery, arrogance and snidely looking down on others as inferior to you. You show that quite well, and that is the elitism Santorum was talking about.

Ignorant is inferior to educated, stupid is inferior to smart and truthiness is inferior to facts. That's not me being arrogant, that's just reality.
When Santorum and his ilk have the arrogant audacity to attempt to participate in discussions about the governance of our country with smart people. When they put their truthiness up against the knowledge that said smart people have spent years of their lives accumulating personally, not to mention thousands of years as a group...
Well such stupid people have rightfully earned condemnation. They have no business expecting to be taken as equals, the idea is ludicrous.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Um, there are times when that can be arrogant, but it depends on how you treat them. Simply ignoring their inputs when it is clear they are bereft of any sort of fact isn't arrogant or elitist. But, if you (and I'm not saying you have, nor am I using "you" in the specific, but the general sense) mock them and patronize them, then that is arrogant and elitist.

It's ridiculous to expect smart people to be quiet because stupid people are talking, that's so ass backwards. If our government has any hope of functioning is really needs to be the other way around.




This isn't about "smart" people. There are lots of smart people out there. There are lots of smart people in both parties. It's not about smart. It's about attitude. When Santorum talked about elite, smart people, his non-verbal communication clearly showed that he was not talking about people with intelligence and education. He was talking about the arrogant elitists who think they are superior to other simply because they have an education, or they have smarts. It's the people with the attitude that they know better than you do what you need.

That's the people he is saying won't vote for Republicans. He isn't saying that intelligent people won't vote for R's. If you can't see that, you're Kool-Aid drunk.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 40
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