quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
Z: I ... walked back through to my street, the street that loops around

Z: So I was walking back through to where my car was and he jumped out from the bushes.

So, if true, he was ambushed.

If you watched the Police video, Zimmerman show the police where he was on a side walk, at a "T" intersection. He points down and tells the police where he and Martin meet. A distance of about 10 feet down the sidewalk, in the open, no bushes, this is an ambush?

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
And he goes, “No, now you have a problem,” and he punched me in the nose. At that point I fell down. Uh, I tried to defend myself. He just started punching me in the face, and, uh, I started screaming for help, I couldn’t see, I couldn’t breath. Then he started taking my

Z: It was dark. I didn’t even see him getting ready to punch me. As soon as he punched me I fell backwards, um, into the grass, and then he grabbed m, uh, he was wailing on my head, and I s…then I started yelling, “Help!” When I started yelling for help he grabbed my head and he started hitting my head into the …I, I tried to sit up and yell for help, and then he grabbed my head and started hitting it into the sidewalk. Um, when he started doing that I slid into the grass to try and get out from under him and so that he would stop hitting my head into the sidewalk. And I’m still yelling for help…………

According to George's own words, he fell down immediately. He said it twice. This happened at the "T" in the sidewalk. This does NOT match the witnesses that said they heard the fight moving south. This does NOT match with where the body was eventually found.

Now, let's say the fight did move south, such as is supported by the witnesses and the body location. If George did fall down IMMEDIATELY after being punched, then he had to have been punched AFTER they moved, so this means that the story of Martin walking up to George, telling him he has a problem, then sucker punching him is a total lie along with the whole "Yo Homie, you got a problem?" nonsense.

So, did Zimmerman get sucker punched at the "T" like he claims, and which is totally unsubstanitated? Or did the arguement move south before Martin punched him, which indicates that Zimmerman was most likely trying to detain Martin before Martin punched him? One way or the other. You can't have it both ways. The evidence, AND the witnesses, AND DeeDee points to it being the second version, and again gives reason to hold anything Zimmerman says as being highly suspect.

I cut out some bits that seemed superfluous.

I have no idea whether they moved or not. The witnesses may have perceived as much, but they may have been fooled.

Zimmerman may have receded backwards from the T before the much taller aggressor or not.

I do notice that Zimmerman repeats himself several times and that may cause misunderstandings.

My conclusion, several threads and months ago, is that Martin was the aggressor and that Zimmerman shot him in self defense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

O,Mara is taking the "Stand Your Ground" there will be a hearing which mean Zimmerman would have to prove his case, even testify. Even if it went "self defense" the defense would have prove the claim.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

JUST like I tell my daughters, "If you're kidnapped, your best strategy is to try to escape as soon as possible, maiming or killing your attackers if necessary..."

Too bad Travon's father didn't tell him that, or Travon ignored his father's advice.
According to the evidence, Travon escaped from Zimmerman's sight but instead of going to his father's condo after escaping he circled back and confronted Zimmerman.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

O,Mara is taking the "Stand Your Ground" there will be a hearing which mean Zimmerman would have to prove his case, even testify. Even if it went "self defense" the defense would have prove the claim.

Not sure that Z would have to testify. The Defense could call on the police record of his statements the night of the incident.
When does the Defendant ever have to prove anything in American Criminal Law?

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Getting off point, Farglebargles position is that because of diallo and a lynching in 98 a white man acused of killing a black man must automatically be guilty.

Actually, my point is that Trayvon Martin had plenty of reason to fear for his safety from the man who killed him, and that defending himself from his killer was clearly justified. And then I showed a court case to illustrate the issue at hand, where people reacting to a similar situation were judged not guilty.

The real double-standard here is that if Travyon Martin was a woman, NO-ONE would be defending George Zimmerman's choices that night.

May have been your point but it sure wasn't what you said. And you still fail to understand that while Martin may well have thought he was defending himself that has no bering on wether Zimmerman thought he too was was defending himself. I see that you are abandoning for the moment a race based argument for a sex based one which is just as unrelated to the case.

But that's the entire point. Martin's self defense based on Zimmerman's provocation PRECLUDES Zimmerman's claim of self-defense.

The only issue really is that there are some who just "Don't Get It" that Zimmerman's actions were provocative in that context.

Which is fine. Their opinions are worthless, and I'm sure that the Prosecution will make sure that the jurors clearly understand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Whether or not George Zimmerman was profiling anyone or is a racist it irrelevant to the issue at hand, which is, is there any reasonable doubt to they hypothesis that George Zimmerman provoked Trayvon Martin to defend himself? Examining Trayvon Martin's potential motives says 'no', while a critical examination of George Zimmerman's behaviour certainly supports the notion that he let his temper override his good judgement and given the circumstance, I don't doubt that he provoked the incident by unlawfully trying to detain Trayvon Martin.

JUST like I tell my daughters, "If you're kidnapped, your best strategy is to try to escape as soon as possible, maiming or killing your attackers if necessary..."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

O,Mara is taking the "Stand Your Ground" there will be a hearing which mean Zimmerman would have to prove his case, even testify. Even if it went "self defense" the defense would have prove the claim.

Not sure that Z would have to testify. The Defense could call on the police record of his statements the night of the incident.
When does the Defendant ever have to prove anything in American Criminal Law?

Under Flordia Law in a "Standard Your Ground" hearing, the burden of proof is on the Defense. They must submit evidence and the Zimmerman would be required to take the stand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
Z: I ... walked back through to my street, the street that loops around

Z: So I was walking back through to where my car was and he jumped out from the bushes.

So, if true, he was ambushed. It is pretty far fetched to think of it as an "ambush". The only thing that even remotely indicates an "ambush" is Zimmerman's claim that Martin first says something like, "Yo Homie...what's your fucking problem?" Zimmerman replies innocently, "I don't have no fucking problem" and Martin says, "No, now you got a problem," just before sucker punching him. But that conversation and action could NOT have happened if the arguement moved south like the witnesses said, and which the locatin of the body indicates HAD to have happened.

If you watched the Police video, Zimmerman show the police where he was on a side walk, at a "T" intersection. He points down and tells the police where he and Martin meet. A distance of about 10 feet down the sidewalk, in the open, no bushes, this is an ambush?

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
And he goes, “No, now you have a problem,” and he punched me in the nose. At that point I fell down. Uh, I tried to defend myself. He just started punching me in the face, and, uh, I started screaming for help, I couldn’t see, I couldn’t breath. Then he started taking my

Z: It was dark. I didn’t even see him getting ready to punch me. As soon as he punched me I fell backwards, um, into the grass, and then he grabbed m, uh, he was wailing on my head, and I s…then I started yelling, “Help!” When I started yelling for help he grabbed my head and he started hitting my head into the …I, I tried to sit up and yell for help, and then he grabbed my head and started hitting it into the sidewalk. Um, when he started doing that I slid into the grass to try and get out from under him and so that he would stop hitting my head into the sidewalk. And I’m still yelling for help…………

According to George's own words, he fell down immediately. He said it twice. This happened at the "T" in the sidewalk. This does NOT match the witnesses that said they heard the fight moving south. This does NOT match with where the body was eventually found.

Now, let's say the fight did move south, such as is supported by the witnesses and the body location. If George did fall down IMMEDIATELY after being punched, then he had to have been punched AFTER they moved, so this means that the story of Martin walking up to George, telling him he has a problem, then sucker punching him is a total lie along with the whole "Yo Homie, you got a problem?" nonsense.

So, did Zimmerman get sucker punched at the "T" like he claims, and which is totally unsubstanitated? Or did the arguement move south before Martin punched him, which indicates that Zimmerman was most likely trying to detain Martin before Martin punched him? One way or the other. You can't have it both ways. The evidence, AND the witnesses, AND DeeDee points to it being the second version, and again gives reason to hold anything Zimmerman says as being highly suspect.

I cut out some bits that seemed superfluous.

I have no idea whether they moved or not. The witnesses may have perceived as much, but they may have been fooled.

Zimmerman may have receded backwards from the T before the much taller aggressor or not. Actually, in one of the taped interviews (possibly more...I don't remember which one. I've listened to a bunch of them.) Zimmerman DOES say that he backed up. The problem is that what he says is that he backed up towards his vehicle, so his "backing up"...if it even happened...does not account for the eventual location of Martin's body.

I do notice that Zimmerman repeats himself several times and that may cause misunderstandings.

My conclusion, several threads and months ago, is that Martin was the aggressor and that Zimmerman shot him in self defense. Unfortunately for your theory, the evidence all indicates that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Just because Zimmerman got the worst part of the fist fight does NOT mean that he didn't initiate the confrontation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


You are clearly unaware the Zimmerman waived a stsnd your ground hearing over a month ago.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Not sure how never being convicted of anything = "Lots of criminal record"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


You are clearly unaware the Zimmerman waived a stsnd your ground hearing over a month ago.

What's he going to base his defense on then?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


You are clearly unaware the Zimmerman waived a stsnd your ground hearing over a month ago.

What's he going to base his defense on then?

self defense which is apparently not quite the same.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Not sure how never being convicted of anything = "Lots of criminal record"

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11808013-george-zimmermans-criminal-records-revealed


I understand this is why the Sheriffs deparment rejected him

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


You are clearly unaware the Zimmerman waived a stsnd your ground hearing over a month ago.

What's he going to base his defense on then?

self defense which is apparently not quite the same.

Very true. ty.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Not sure how never being convicted of anything = "Lots of criminal record"

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11808013-george-zimmermans-criminal-records-revealed


I understand this is why the Sheriffs deparment rejected him

Oh look, never convicted of anything.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Not sure how never being convicted of anything = "Lots of criminal record"

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11808013-george-zimmermans-criminal-records-revealed


I understand this is why the Sheriffs deparment rejected him

Oh look, never convicted of anything.

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
Z: I ... walked back through to my street, the street that loops around

Z: So I was walking back through to where my car was and he jumped out from the bushes.

So, if true, he was ambushed.

It is pretty far fetched to think of it as an "ambush".

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
The only thing that even remotely indicates an "ambush" is Zimmerman's claim that Martin first says something like, "Yo Homie...what's your fucking problem?" Zimmerman replies innocently, "I don't have no fucking problem" and Martin says, "No, now you got a problem," just before sucker punching him. But that conversation and action could NOT have happened if the arguement moved south like the witnesses said, and which the locatin of the body indicates HAD to have happened.

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
Z: I ... walked back through to my street, the street that loops around

Z: So I was walking back through to where my car was and he jumped out from the bushes.

So, if true, he was ambushed.

If you watched the Police video, Zimmerman show the police where he was on a side walk, at a "T" intersection. He points down and tells the police where he and Martin meet. A distance of about 10 feet down the sidewalk, in the open, no bushes, this is an ambush?

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Zimmerman may have receded backwards from the T before the much taller aggressor or not.

Actually, in one of the taped interviews (possibly more...I don't remember which one. I've listened to a bunch of them.) Zimmerman DOES say that he backed up. The problem is that what he says is that he backed up towards his vehicle, so his "backing up"...if it even happened...does not account for the eventual location of Martin's body.

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
My conclusion, several threads and months ago, is that Martin was the aggressor and that Zimmerman shot him in self defense.

Unfortunately for your theory,

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
My conclusion, several threads and months ago, is that Martin was the aggressor and that Zimmerman shot him in self defense.

the evidence all indicates that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Just because Zimmerman got the worst part of the fist fight does NOT mean that he didn't initiate the confrontation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Zimmerman may have receded backwards from the T before the much taller aggressor or not.

Actually, in one of the taped interviews (possibly more...I don't remember which one. I've listened to a bunch of them.) Zimmerman DOES say that he backed up. The problem is that what he says is that he backed up towards his vehicle, so his "backing up"...if it even happened...does not account for the eventual location of Martin's body.

So? He was backing off; which is not typical of an aggressor, I note. Then next there is a hole in his testimony. A child can connect the dots and see the whole picture: Zimmerman got punched and had his nose broken and stumbled backwards in another direction. Mind: I do not know if this is what happened, if this fills in the hole in Zimmerman's story, but the truth of the matter will doubtlessly come out in court.

No witnesses to the fighting. In fact the phyiscal evidence does not support Martin punched Zimmerman at all. Martin hands had only on small scratch on his left ring finger. According to the only medical documents, the doctor stated the nose was "Likely" broken, also noting the septal had no devation, meaning that piece of cartlige in your nose was not broken.

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
My conclusion, several threads and months ago, is that Martin was the aggressor and that Zimmerman shot him in self defense.

Unfortunately for your theory,

It isn't a hypothesis: it is my judgement and it is immutable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
My conclusion, several threads and months ago, is that Martin was the aggressor and that Zimmerman shot him in self defense.

the evidence all indicates that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Just because Zimmerman got the worst part of the fist fight does NOT mean that he didn't initiate the confrontation.