RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (Full Version)

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Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 7:00:38 PM)

And in Stieh, the reason for the mention of the witnesses in the paragraph I quoted is only to point out that they didn't rebut Stieh's theory of innocence, so that's an incredible leap to point to that as your reason for why it wouldn't apply.




tazzygirl -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 7:07:03 PM)

Wouldnt Fowler support the prosecution more in the case of profiling?




Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 7:12:16 PM)

That's not the issue on which Fowler would be brought up.

So no, it wouldn't.




tazzygirl -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 7:35:41 PM)

Are you under the belief that Z isnt guilty of profiling?




Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 7:37:46 PM)

I've not said anything either way. It's just not relevant to Stieh/Fowler's applicability.




tazzygirl -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 7:54:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

I've not said anything either way. It's just not relevant to Stieh/Fowler's applicability.


The question remains, regardless of the applicability of those cases.




Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 8:02:40 PM)

And I don't feel like going on another irrelevant tangent, so pass.




tazzygirl -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 8:18:04 PM)

lol

no rant. Though I dont blame you for being afraid to answer that question.




farglebargle -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 8:19:27 PM)

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.




Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/14/2012 6:06:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

lol

no rant. Though I dont blame you for being afraid to answer that question.


There's no need to fear answering that question; it just has no relevance. You were caught being wrong again so tried to change the subject.




tazzygirl -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/14/2012 6:40:27 AM)

Nope... I got bored with the topic and asked a question that interested me more.

quote:

You were caught being wrong again so tried to change the subject.


You seem to enjoy telling people how wrong they are, when all they do is ask question. You assume I had my mind made up on the previous topic.

Im sure you realize what assumptions do.

Zimmerman will go before a Judge and a jury... there will be no pretrial dismissal. Depending on the outcome of that trial, a post trial request to dismiss may be asked for...

You appear to be saying that its a foregone conclusion that it will.

Do you have information the rest of us dont?

Or have you already tried this in your mind and cannot conceive any judgement except that one you determine is correct?




mons -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/14/2012 7:05:16 AM)

He will not see this but I do believe in his mind he has had a trial and found him'not guilty all

of counts !

mons




Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/14/2012 7:08:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You seem to enjoy telling people how wrong they are, when all they do is ask question. You assume I had my mind made up on the previous topic.



No assumption. You asserted Stieh didn't apply because there were witnesses which is factually incorrect as proven by Fowler. (Although I see what you're trying to do, by wording it such a way you can back off the assertion. I am not fooled.)




Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/14/2012 7:16:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Zimmerman will go before a Judge and a jury... there will be no pretrial dismissal. Depending on the outcome of that trial, a post trial request to dismiss may be asked for...

You appear to be saying that its a foregone conclusion that it will.



I don't think you understand my opinion at all. If the judge (whoever it is) denies the motion to dismiss based on immunity granted by 776.032, that ruling can be appealed pre-trial.

So can the motion of acquittal also be appealed (as with Stieh and Fowler).

Judge Nelson does have a pretty lengthy history of having her rulings over-turned so it wouldn't surprise me to see this added to the list. The same DCA would be reviewing it as the one that overturned Lester's ruling and forced him off the case.




tazzygirl -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/14/2012 7:46:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You seem to enjoy telling people how wrong they are, when all they do is ask question. You assume I had my mind made up on the previous topic.



No assumption. You asserted Stieh didn't apply because there were witnesses which is factually incorrect as proven by Fowler. (Although I see what you're trying to do, by wording it such a way you can back off the assertion. I am not fooled.)



No, actually, you are easily fooled, by your own assumptions. If you look back at the case, I pulled up the wrong one. But since you have a hard on for that case.. lets look at it.

quote:

In Fowler v. State,492 So.2d 1344, 1352 (Fla. 1st DCA 1986),1 the First District reversed a murder conviction because "the defendant's hypothesis that the shooting was purely accidental and in self-defense has not been overcome." As in the present case, no eyewitnesses saw the shooting or the events preceding it, and the defendant fled after the shooting. In fact, in Fowler, the defendant fled the jurisdiction. In discussing whether the State met its burden to withstand a motion for judgment of acquittal, the court stated, "Evidence that leaves room for two or more inferences of fact, at least one of which is consistent with the defendant's hypothesis of innocence, is not legally sufficient to make a case for the jury." Id. at 1348.


This wasnt accidental.

quote:

Here, the State argues that evidence of Fowler's flight after the shooting shows consciousness of guilt and is inconsistent with his theory that he acted in self-defense. The State cites Sims v. State,681 So.2d 1112 (Fla.1996), to support its argument that evidence of the defendant's flight after a shooting is sufficient to rebut evidence of self-defense. In Sims, the defendant shot a law enforcement officer, threw the gun in a river, and arrived by bus four days later in California. In addition to the defendant's actions after the shooting, however, the court noted that the physical evidence, as testified to by the firearms expert and medical examiner, was inconsistent with the defendant's version of events. Further, the defendant's version of events was inconsistent with the testimony of three other witnesses. Id. at 1116. Sims is distinguishable from the present case because here, the evidence was not inconsistent with Fowler's version of events.


Seems the DNA evidence will be strongly used.

quote:

While flight can evidence consciousness of guilt, it is not inconsistent with Fowler's hypothesis that he fled because he was panicked, scared, and not using good judgment. In Fowler, the court stated as follows:
We do not doubt that the evidence adduced by the state, particularly the evidence as to Fowler's actions after the shooting, casts considerable suspicion upon him. But mere "suspicion" is not enough. When the state presents circumstantial evidence of a particular fact which is arguably consistent with the defendant's story, then the fact is simply not probative of the defendant's guilt.

Here, in opposing Fowler's motion for judgment of acquittal at the close of all the evidence, the prosecutor relied on (1) the testimony of Calvin Standifer and (2) Fowler's behavior after the shooting. With respect to Standifer's testimony, nothing in his testimony contradicts the defense evidence that Fowler acted in self-defense. Standifer testified that he was watching television when he heard the gunshot and that he immediately went to the window and saw Dunbar falling backward. The State contends that if Fowler's version of events is correct, then when Standifer went to the window he would have seen Dunbar falling into Fowler before falling backwards to the ground. First, although Standifer acknowledged that he jumped up immediately, nothing reflects how far Standifer's chair was from the window or how long it took him to get to the window. Fowler's testimony established that the events all happened very quickly, and a reasonable explanation as to what Standifer saw is that by the time he got up and went to the window, Dunbar had already fallen against Fowler and was falling backwards to the ground.


Much of the evidence in this case will center around the phone call with 911 and evidence gathered after the shooting.

Unlike Fowler, the states case isnt built around actions by the accused after the fact.

quote:

Furthermore, the physical evidence is consistent with Fowler's explanation that Dunbar fell against him before falling to the ground. The FDLE serologist testified that the blood stains on Fowler's shirt matched the DNA profile of Dunbar's blood sample. Leroy Parker, a supervisor for the FDLE and an expert in the field of bloodstain pattern analysis, testified that all of the blood stains on Fowler's t-shirt were contact stains and that they were not "blow back" stains. Thus, the physical evidence supports Fowler's testimony that Dunbar fell against him, and then Dunbar fell to the ground. Standifer's testimony that he only saw Dunbar falling backward does not contradict Fowler's testimony and the physical evidence.


http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?page=5&xmldoc=20061629921So2d708_11513.xml&docbase=CSLWAR2-1986-2006&SizeDisp=7

It goes on and on. Would seem to me they would have to look at more than just a citation where it was used in another case. Rather, theyw ould have to look at the similarities and differences between the cases to determine if it is applicable at all.

The bolded part above will determine if its applicable at all.




Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/14/2012 8:38:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

No, actually, you are easily fooled, by your own assumptions.



Wrong.

quote:

If you look back at the case, I pulled up the wrong one.


Yep, which is why I repeated the correct one.


quote:

Seems the DNA evidence will be strongly used.


And it's all consistent with the Defense's theory of innocence.



quote:

Much of the evidence in this case will center around the phone call with 911 and evidence gathered after the shooting.


None of which is inconsistent with the Defense's theory of innocence.

Unlike Fowler, the states case isnt built around actions by the accused after the fact.


quote:

It goes on and on. Would seem to me they would have to look at more than just a citation where it was used in another case. Rather, theyw ould have to look at the similarities and differences between the cases to determine if it is applicable at all.


No they wouldn't. Fowler is extremely explicit in stating:

" "In applying the standard, the version of events related by the defense must be believed if the circumstances do not show that version to be false." McArthur, 351 So.2d at 976 (emphasis supplied). This last-quoted proposition has been the law in this state for at least sixty years."

If there is no evidence introduced that proves the Defense's theory wrong, the defense must be believed. If there is, then it's sufficient to be sent to a jury.

So far, absolutely none of the evidence released disproves that George was pinned to the ground, struggling to get away for nearly a minute and being unable to until he feared imminent serious bodily injury and fired in self defense.




tazzygirl -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/14/2012 8:43:20 AM)

quote:

It has long been held in Florida that "where the only proof of guilt is circumstantial, no matter how strongly the evidence may suggest guilt, a conviction cannot be sustained unless the evidence is inconsistent with any reasonable hypothesis of innocence." McArthur v. State, 351 So.2d at 976, n. 12 (emphasis supplied). This means, as stated in Mayo, "Evidence which leaves one with `nothing stronger than a suspicion' that the defendant committed the crime is not sufficient to sustain a conviction." 71 So.2d at 904. "In applying the standard, the version of events related by the defense must be believed if the circumstances do not show that version to be false." McArthur, 351 So.2d at 976 (emphasis supplied). This last-quoted proposition has been the law in this state for at least sixty years. Holton v. State, 87 Fla. 65, 99 So. 244 (1924).


And there hinges the whole case. In your mind, its cut and dry, in mine, not so much. Nor do I tend to believe we have seen all the evidence the prosecution has in their possession yet.




Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/14/2012 8:56:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Nor do I tend to believe we have seen all the evidence the prosecution has in their possession yet.



In case you don't remember, I've held the position from the very beginning that it's possible that the evidence that proves guilt hasn't been made public, and if it does exist then he should be found guilty.

Though that's gotten less and less likely as time goes on and more evidence gets released with none of it to date still even remotely proving guilt.




tazzygirl -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/14/2012 9:25:15 AM)

quote:

none of it to date still even remotely proving guilt.


In your opinion.




Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/14/2012 9:46:18 AM)

Feel free to demonstrate a piece of evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that George wasn't on the ground taking injury until he feared for his life and fired in self defense.




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