RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 8:59:25 AM)

and now we have another 180 on relevance.   Everything is relevant, not just whether or not he feared for his fucking life at the moment of shooting, which you just cooked him on by the way as I demonstrated with astrisks.    




tazzygirl -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 9:00:31 AM)

The Florida Evidence Manual:

Section 90.404(1)(b) allows evidence of a pertinent trait of character of the victim of a crime to be offered by an accused; or by the prosecution to rebut the trait; or evidence of a character trait of peacefulness of the victim offered by the prosecution in a homicide case to rebut evidence that the victim was the aggressor.


Interesting





Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 9:02:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

and now we have another 180 on relevance.   Everything is relevant, not just whether or not he feared for his fucking life at the moment of shooting, which you just cooked him on by the way as I demonstrated with astrisks.    


No, there's no 180 on relevance. You're conflating different concepts together.




Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 9:03:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The Florida Evidence Manual:

Section 90.404(1)(b) allows evidence of a pertinent trait of character of the victim of a crime to be offered by an accused; or by the prosecution to rebut the trait; or evidence of a character trait of peacefulness of the victim offered by the prosecution in a homicide case to rebut evidence that the victim was the aggressor.


Interesting





Yep, I thought that was known by now, so I just addressed mnottertail's assertion that George was required to know this trait to be relevant.

Case law shows otherwise.




Rule -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 9:03:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
dont you love how when shown his own words, we are lying and making things up?


Well, you are. Your sub mind is malforming your perception of reality in order for you to feel good about yourself.




tazzygirl -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 9:04:50 AM)

In Florida, evidence of the dangerous character of the victim is admissible to show, or as tending to show, that the defendant acted in self-defense. Garner v. State, 28 Fla. 113, 136, 9 So. 835, 841 (1891). Thus, when self-defense is raised, evidence of the victim's reputation is admissible to disclose his or her propensity for violence and the likelihood that the victim was the aggressor, while evidence of prior specific acts of violence by the victim is admissible to reveal the reasonableness of the defendant's apprehension at the time of the incident. Quintana v. State, 452 So.2d 98, 100 (Fla. 1st DCA 1984) (reversing first-degree murder conviction, because defendant erroneously precluded from offering reputation and specific-act evidence relative to self-defense claim). See also Hager v. State, 439 So.2d 996, 997 (Fla. 4th DCA 1983); Banks v. State, 351 So.2d 1071, 1072 (Fla. 4th DCA), cert. denied, 354 So.2d 986 (Fla. 1977); Williams v. State, 252 So.2d 243 (Fla. 4th DCA), cert. denied, 255 So.2d 682 (Fla. 1971); §§ 90.404 & .405, Fla. Stat. (Supp. 1990 & 1989); Charles W. Ehrhardt, Florida Evidence § 404.6 (1992 ed.). If reputation evidence is offered to show the victim's conduct, the defendant's prior knowledge of the victim's reputation is not necessary. Banks, 351 So.2d at 1072. If, however, character evidence is offered to prove the reasonableness of the defendant's apprehension, prior knowledge of the specific-act violence is necessary.




mnottertail -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 9:05:14 AM)

No, I am not, as I intimated at the outset, if Zimmerman is circumsized it could come up at trial, and will be relevant.

You got a 180.  Go search Raiikun and the word irrelevant.

Thanks for playing, we have some nice parting gifts for you on the way out of your spin. 




Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 9:06:12 AM)

No need. I'm not the one wrong about what is relevant.




Rule -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 9:07:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
if Zimmerman is circumsized it could come up at trial, and will be relevant.

Why will that be relevant?




mnottertail -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 9:09:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The Florida Evidence Manual:

Section 90.404(1)(b) allows evidence of a pertinent trait of character of the victim of a crime to be offered by an accused; or by the prosecution to rebut the trait; or evidence of a character trait of peacefulness of the victim offered by the prosecution in a homicide case to rebut evidence that the victim was the aggressor.


Interesting





Yep, I thought that was known by now, so I just addressed mnottertail's assertion that George was required to know this trait to be relevant.

Case law shows otherwise.


Another gaffe on your part, I did not assert that.  I am pointing out the truth of what I said, and the absolute falsehood of what you said regarding what is and is not relevant.





Rule -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 9:10:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Go search Raiikun and the word irrelevant.

Google gives 58 hits on that combination.




mnottertail -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 9:12:43 AM)

far less than here, excepting that the one big thread got pulled, and that would bring down the net if included.




tazzygirl -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 9:12:48 AM)

Once the proper foundation is laid, the defendant may introduce evidence of the victim's reputation or of specific instances of the victim's conduct. See § 90.405, Fla. Stat. (2009). There are, however, important distinctions and evidentiary requirements between reputation evidence and evidence of specific acts admitted under section 90.404(1)(b). Grace v. State, 832 So.2d 224, 226 (Fla. 2d DCA 2002); Pino, 389 So.2d at 1194.

The purpose of introducing the reputation evidence in a self-defense case is to show that the victim was the initial aggressor. Pino, 389 So.2d at 1194. Reputation evidence is offered to show that the victim acted in conformity with a known character trait. Because reputation evidence relates to the conduct of the victim, the defendant is not required to have had prior knowledge of the victim's reputation in the community. See Dwyer v. State, 743 So.2d 46, 48 (Fla. 5th DCA 1999) (holding that "a defendant who alleges self-defense can show, through the testimony of another witness, that the alleged victim had a propensity for violence, thereby inferring that the alleged victim was the aggressor. A defendant's prior knowledge of the victim's reputation for violence is irrelevant, because the evidence is offered to show the conduct of the victim, rather than the defendant's state of mind.") (citations omitted); Melvin v. State, 592 So.2d 356, 357 (Fla. 4th DCA 1992) (concluding that the trial court erred by excluding testimony that the victim had a reputation as a bully because there was no showing that the defendant had knowledge of the victim's reputation); Marcum v. State, 341 So.2d 815, 817 (Fla. 2d DCA 1977) (holding that where an issue is the identity of the initial aggressor, it is irrelevant whether the defendant was aware of his adversary's reputation).

Conversely, the purpose of specific acts evidence in a self-defense case is to demonstrate the reasonableness of the defendant's fear at the time of the incident. State v. Smith, 573 So.2d 306 (Fla.1990); Sanchez, 445 So.2d at 2; Reddick v. State, 443 So.2d 482 (Fla. 2d DCA 1984); Marcum, 341 So.2d at 817. Because the defendant's state of mind is at issue, before the defendant may introduce specific acts allegedly committed by the victim, he must show that he had prior knowledge of these acts. Pino, 389 So.2d at 1194; Williams v. State, 252 So.2d 243 (Fla. 4th DCA 1971).




Just a couple of things I found while looking for the source of those cases. Interesting stuff!




Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 9:27:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


Another gaffe on your part, I did not assert that.  I am pointing out the truth of what I said, and the absolute falsehood of what you said regarding what is and is not relevant.



There is no falsehood on my part. You're getting multiple concepts conflated.




mnottertail -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 9:29:50 AM)

No, I am not.  Not only do you not know what the words relevance, fact, proof and irrelevant mean, you don't have conflate under your belt either.




Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 9:37:34 AM)

NM. Time to just hit report.




mnottertail -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 9:40:15 AM)

LOL.  




tazzygirl -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 9:43:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

NM. Time to just hit report.


You call people liars THEN want to report? Amazing




farglebargle -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 10:21:13 AM)

So, that there text from the Law appears to say in my reading that the Prosecution gets to rebut the hypothesis that Trayvon Martin was the aggressor, which makes sense, since if the Defense can't point to Trayvon Martin as the aggressor, then Zimmerman's self-defense claim is invalid.





Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (10/13/2012 10:49:04 AM)

A couple of corrections.

1) George's self defense claim is still valid even if he is the aggressor under Florida law.
2) The burden is still on the prosecution to prove George is the aggressor. Meanwhile the Defense is only required (and not even really that) to show the possibility that Trayvon was.

Yes, the burden of proof is very much weighed in the Defense's favor in Florida. An example of how much:

There's a case in Florida in which a hitchhiker gets a ride, ends up shooting the guy who gave him a ride, takes his wallet and drives off in the guy's car. He claimed the guy attacked him and so shot him in self defense before taking his wallet and driving off in the guy's car.

He ended up being convicted on the theft but not the murder, because the court ruled that no matter how guilty the evidence makes him look, because there was nothing to prove him wrong, so he had to be acquitted.




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