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Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 6:42:24 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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Status: offline 		A Texas mother was arrested for child endangerment because a neighbor called police saying her children were playing outside unsupervised. The mother claims she was sitting on a lawn chair watching them the entire time. My question is, why does it matter? When I was growing up on a quiet street, neighborhood children frequently played outside. Parents checked on us from time to time, but no adults stayed outside watching us the entire time. How many of you played outside without constant surveillance? IMO these child laws are getting way out of hand.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/mom-sues-polices-she-arrested-letting-her-kids-134628018.html

< Message edited by defiantbadgirl -- 9/20/2012 6:44:43 AM >

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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 6:51:09 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
IMO these child laws are getting way out of hand.



It's just a continuation of the safety/security apparatus at work. This is not the America I grew up in.

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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 7:00:47 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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Status: offline 		This sounds like it was just a mistake on the part of law enforcement.

The laws are there for a reason. Perhaps in your neighborhood, things are safe enough that children can safely play outside completely unsupervised. This is not true in every neighborhood. Also, some children are truly unsupervised in a way that is dangerous. This law is designed to go after people who are truly endangering their children - and sadly, there are some parents who do that. Sometimes it is due to justifiable reasons, such as having to work, and not being there to supervise their children after school. But sometimes it is for other reasons - like the parents spent the day strung out on drugs and just neglected the children. Trust me, this type of stuff does happen.

I highly doubt this particular mother will be prosecuted. I don't think this is what the law is there for.

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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 7:12:12 AM   
kalikshama


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Status: offline 		More details below. While it appears the neighbor lied about hitting a child with her car, this explains why the police arrested the mother.

http://mommyish.com/stuff/free-range-mom-arrested-kids-unattended-833/

The particulars of this story seem a little fuzzy. Apparently the neighbor, Shelley Fuller, called the police with Cooper’s 6- and 9-year-old children were riding scooters in the street. Fuller says they were unattended. Cooper says that she was on a lawn chair on the porch the whole time, though she admits that she sometimes watched her little ones from inside the house through her front picture windows while they play in the cul-de-sac. The police officer who responded wasn’t going to pursue the issue further until Fuller said that she had “struck one of Cooper’s children with her vehicle as they played in the street.”

At that point, even though the story about the vehicle incident ended up being completely false, Cooper was arrested on felony charges of child endangerment and child abandonment. The officer also refused to cuff Cooper with her hands in front of her, even though she told him that she had neck and back issues which make it painful for her to have her hands behind her back. After the children were found to have absolutely zero bumps or bruises from an accident that the mother supposedly didn’t respond to or notice, Tammy Cooper was released. CPS did a follow-up investigation, found no problems and the case was closed.
In this particular case, I feel bad for Tammy Cooper. I think it’s horrible that Fuller would lie about a car accident to make it look like the children were in more danger than they were realistically. I am completely confused as to how a woman can say she personally hit a child with her car and not be questioned or prosecuted in any way. And of course, I don’t understand why the officer couldn’t have, at the very least, handcuffed Cooper in the front of her body to save her from pain. In this instance, I believe that Cooper was treated unfairly.

All of that being said, I can still sympathize with the concerned neighbor. And I don’t think that Tammy Cooper’s case means that neighbors have no right butting in when they see behavior that they think is dangerous.


Read more: http://mommyish.com/stuff/free-range-mom-arrested-kids-unattended-833/#ixzz271FRpkGM

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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 7:15:42 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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Status: offline 		Oh, ouch. This sounds like bad neighbor syndrome to me - I have a feeling Fuller and Cooper have had an altercation over the children playing unsupervised before. There is more to this than what we are hearing.

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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 7:23:19 AM   
mnottertail


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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 7:23:21 AM   
subspaceseven


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Status: offline 		It can't be true,...cause Texas is GOP and they stand for is smaller government, wow it is almost like texas is becoming a nanny state


I have a wrap around porch and am mostly outside when my children are playing, but not watching them every second, I have things to get done. The only time I do not take my eyes off them is when they are in the pool swimming.

However, when I first moved here, I had a cop stop and tell my then 6 YO son that he could not ride his bike on the sidewalk and had to ride it on the street. (35mph limit) When I confronted the cop and told him he was fucking nuts, to insist a child ride their bike int the street I got a ticket.

Hence at the next alderman meeting I voiced my concern about such a stupid law and it has since been changed

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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 7:36:56 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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Status: offline 		I am attaching a link that discusses child endangerment laws generally. Laws differ from state-to-state. Again, it is just important to understand these laws exist for very legitimate reasons. They are not really designed to prevent children from playing in their neighborhood unsupervised. These laws have also been around for a long time. Probably since we were all young, too. It's just they aren't typically used except for truly dangerous situations. Again, it appears the woman in the above case has not been prosecuted, and she is now suing the police. This is a law enforcement error not a problem with the underlying law.

http://voices.yahoo.com/child-endangerment-criminal-law-93834.html

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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 7:59:05 AM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		My parents would have been in jail for life and I bet everyone elses would have too. We even played street football unsupervised.

I guess the cops would rather have the kids inside talking to strangers on the internet or playing video games so they can become fat tubs of goo.

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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 8:04:16 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Again, it appears the woman in the above case has not been prosecuted, and she is now suing the police. This is a law enforcement error not a problem with the underlying law.

no, its not a law enforcement error.. if someone claims you stole something from them they will arrest you and then investigate to see if there is enough evidence to prosecute you or not.. That is the process (which a cop told me recently).. it doesnt matter if you tell them that the person is lying & making a false charge to get back at you for something, you can be falsely accused but the cops have to act based on the charge until/unless there is evidence to the contrary (or not enough evidence).. If you dont believe me, walk into a cop shop and ask them yourself..

About the charge, I think the complaining neighbor was tired of hearing noisy kids constantly in front of her house, having them riding up and down her driveway (as kids will do) and all that.. I suppose it could have been worse.. the mom could have had that Florida nutbar that shot the steak & seafood salesman dead as a neighbor instead.. that nutbar threatened to shoot the local kids who rode their scooters/bikes if they ever trespassed..

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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 1:29:42 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Again, it appears the woman in the above case has not been prosecuted, and she is now suing the police. This is a law enforcement error not a problem with the underlying law.

no, its not a law enforcement error.. if someone claims you stole something from them they will arrest you and then investigate to see if there is enough evidence to prosecute you or not.. That is the process (which a cop told me recently).. it doesnt matter if you tell them that the person is lying & making a false charge to get back at you for something, you can be falsely accused but the cops have to act based on the charge until/unless there is evidence to the contrary (or not enough evidence).. If you dont believe me, walk into a cop shop and ask them yourself..

About the charge, I think the complaining neighbor was tired of hearing noisy kids constantly in front of her house, having them riding up and down her driveway (as kids will do) and all that.. I suppose it could have been worse.. the mom could have had that Florida nutbar that shot the steak & seafood salesman dead as a neighbor instead.. that nutbar threatened to shoot the local kids who rode their scooters/bikes if they ever trespassed..


I stand by what I have said. Police make judgmental errors all the time. They are not actually obligated to make arrests unless they actually witnessed a crime. Ask anyone who had been accused of shoplifting but where there was no evidence. Ask anyone who has had the police called on them for having a loud party. Ask anyone who has ever been in a domestic violence situation. Police will often respond, ask a few questions, sometimes give some warnings....and then leave if they do not think an arrest is warranted. Happens all the time. If police arrested people EVERY time there was a complaint or phone call about a legal violation, they would not be able to keep up

It is my understanding that probable cause is still the standard for arrest. I don't see, based on the facts that Kali cited, that there would have been probable cause here (unless there are more facts about which we are unaware). Letting your children play outside is NOT probable cause for arrest under child endangerment laws.

In addition, the manner in which this woman was arrested absolutely entitles her to sue.

< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 9/20/2012 1:35:34 PM >

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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 2:09:28 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

I am completely confused as to how a woman can say she personally hit a child with her car and not be questioned or prosecuted in any way.


That is what I am wondering about.

Something smells funny.

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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 2:13:28 PM   
Kana


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Status: offline 		Nothing like living in a Nanny state.

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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 2:13:39 PM   
mnottertail


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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 3:29:30 PM   
JanahX


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Status: offline 		Any day now I expect to see tanks and men marching with swastikas on their uniforms going up the street.

"DONT LET YOUR KIDS OUT - STAY INSIDE - BE AFRAID - THE BIG BAD WOLF IS GONNA GIT JA -

If I were that woman, I would go find that neighbor and light her UP!!

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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 3:41:18 PM   
Kana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

Any day now I expect to see tanks and men marching with swastikas on their uniforms going up the street.

"DONT LET YOUR KIDS OUT - STAY INSIDE - BE AFRAID - THE BIG BAD WOLF IS GONNA GIT JA -

If I were that woman, I would go find that neighbor and light her UP!!

Isn't it fun to live in a nation where fear is the primary message of politicians and the media?


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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 3:41:52 PM   
RemoteUser


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Status: offline 		At some point children should be allowed the physical freedom to grow up. I do tend to watch my son like a hawk, but then, he also has advanced ADHD and autism. He's tried to run into streets before just on a wild impulse.

It would be interesting to learn how they decide what age is or is not appropriate.

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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 3:45:01 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Nothing like living in a Nanny state.



Would that be a 16oz Nanny or a Supersized at 64?

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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 4:03:18 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		For me it would all come down to the age of the children and where they live. For example if the child is around 4 years old AND they live in a ghetto crack house area, then yes I would find the complaint warranted. But if it's a safe community suburban area, I would not find as much wrong with it. When I had my daughter I never worried about being outside watching over her simply because we always lived in a small town suburban area where it was safe and everyone knew everyone. But also when the small children were out playing in the street most of us parents were sitting on porches and talking bullshit while the kids played. It was the typical white picket fence friendly neighbors area.

Now had we lived in crack house central, I doubt I would have EVER left her outside without me being outside watching her. I probably would have taken her to the park or some place else I felt was safe for her.

It sounds like they live in a normal suburban area though from the description of the cul-de-sac. This just sounds like two neighbors who don't get alond and it's not the first time they have gotten into an altercation. Unfortunately most of us have at least one neighbor who is like that When I was growing up we had a neighbor just like that. We called her the old hag a bag. She was always calling the cops on us and making up stuff just because we were outside making noise in the middle of the day. No charges were ever pressed though since we weren't doing anything wrong or against the law.

Sounds like it's time for the two women to find a way to settle their differences before it gets out of hand.


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RE: Children playing outside is a crime? - 9/20/2012 4:37:33 PM   
Politesub53


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