Update on Philly restaurant owner

Update on Philly restaurant owner (Full Version)

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Level -> Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/13/2006 2:49:25 AM)
An English-only ordering policy at one of the city's most famous cheesesteak joints drew a warning Monday from officials who threatened to file a discrimination complaint. Link to story

Gauge -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/13/2006 1:49:40 PM)
Here we go... it is now discrimination even though he hasn't refused anyone service. If someone feels like he is discouraging other nationalities from eating there, I don't believe he is and it is their choice to eat there or not ultimately anyway. This will end up in court. Why does this not surprise me?

Lordandmaster -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/13/2006 3:03:19 PM)
The city wants him to take the sign down because they're worried about the effects on tourism. They've been worried about this since Day One. He gets a lot of free publicity from various tourist agencies in Philadelphia (his restaurant is listed on all kinds of brochures and stuff); if he wants to keep enjoying that, I'd say he has to play ball. Or he can stand up for what he "believes" in and go to court. He'll probably win, since he hasn't actually refused anyone service (or so he says--that one Yahoo News article seems to be your sole source of information about this whole affair, Gauge). Like this town needs more controversey. The world is going to hell in a handbasket and we're worried about a cheese-steak shop in South Philadelphia. Amazing.

Gauge -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/13/2006 3:49:43 PM)
quote: Or he can stand up for what he "believes" in and go to court. He'll probably win, since he hasn't actually refused anyone service (or so he says--that one Yahoo News article seems to be your sole source of information about this whole affair, Gauge). LAM, while I haven't read several thousand articles about it. I have read a few and I would think that if anyone had, in fact, been turned away because of their nationality that it would have been indicated prominently by now. What would you have me do to have a valid position on this? Should I go camp out at Geno's and observe his sales tactics? **Edited to add: If he has or had turned away someone due to nationality, I would not be supporting him as vehemently as I have been.**

windchymes -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/13/2006 5:14:27 PM)
What he should have done, rather than posting a sign, is when someone tried to order in some language other than English, just looked at them blankly, and shrugged, shaken his head, etc. That way, he can truthfully claim he couldn't understand the non-English speakers, thereby forcing them to speak English if they want a sandwich, and he wouldn't have made a tangible record of "discriminating". He makes his point, gets what he wants, and no red cape is waved under the noses of the civil liberties groups.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/13/2006 5:45:25 PM)
If you're going to assert that "he hasn't refused anyone service"--then yes, unless you're observing his sales practices, that's not a valid claim. The only way you can possibly say something like that, without having monitored his business, is if you've heard someone else say it and then assumed it had to be true. Of course, the city's position is that it's irrelevant whether he's ever refused anyone service; the sign is enough to "discourage patronage," as they put it. quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge LAM, while I haven't read several thousand articles about it. I have read a few and I would think that if anyone had, in fact, been turned away because of their nationality that it would have been indicated prominently by now. What would you have me do to have a valid position on this? Should I go camp out at Geno's and observe his sales tactics?

Gauge -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/13/2006 10:34:38 PM)
quote: If you're going to assert that "he hasn't refused anyone service"--then yes, unless you're observing his sales practices, that's not a valid claim. The only way you can possibly say something like that, without having monitored his business, is if you've heard someone else say it and then assumed it had to be true. Of course, the city's position is that it's irrelevant whether he's ever refused anyone service; the sign is enough to "discourage patronage," as they put it. Then I will just say that it hasn't been reported that he has turned away business based on nationality and language. You act as if I cannot have an opinion because of the fact that I haven't seen it first hand. Well, I have had opinions on other threads where I haven't actually seen what was reported, but that was just fine? Come on LAM... I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you. I believe that I am allowed to hold an opinion based on the information given to me to evaluate. As far as the city goes, I am not sure of the legal grounds they have. Remember the 'No Shirt. No Shoes. No Service.' signs? What about 'Cash Only. No Credit.' signs? The fact is that it does matter if he has turned business away and it has yet to be reported that he has.

ShreveportMaster -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/13/2006 11:09:37 PM)
In the words of Shakespeare..."if you want justice, begin by killing all the lawyers."

Lordandmaster -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/14/2006 8:26:30 AM)
What I'm saying is pretty simple, Gauge. You can't have an OPINION on the question of whether he has turned away customers, because that's a question of fact, not opinion. And I don't see how you can claim to know any facts about this case if you're just going on the basis of what's been reported on Yahoo News. (For example: You don't even know whether it's been reported that he has turned away customers. All you know is that he claims he hasn't, and you don't know of any evidence to the contrary.) And all I know is that there's a sign at Geno's restaurant that says: "This is America! Order in English." That's pretty much all anyone knows at this point. Edited to add: By the way, if I'm wrong that these two news items are your sole source of information about this affair, I'd honestly be interested to know what else you've read. Maybe there's some document I don't know about. As for the city's legal grounds: this one is a hard case. Though I think they're just trying to get him to take down the sign voluntarily, the city's contention isn't completely without merit. If he had a sign saying "Fags not welcome here" or "We don't serve Jews," he could certainly be forced to remove the sign even if he didn't in fact turn away any customers. That's why the whole question of whether he has turned away customers is a red herring. If his sign is found to discourage patronage, a court could very well rule against him. Oh, and Shreveport: where exactly did Shakespeare say that? quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge Then I will just say that it hasn't been reported that he has turned away business based on nationality and language. You act as if I cannot have an opinion because of the fact that I haven't seen it first hand. Well, I have had opinions on other threads where I haven't actually seen what was reported, but that was just fine? Come on LAM... I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you. I believe that I am allowed to hold an opinion based on the information given to me to evaluate. As far as the city goes, I am not sure of the legal grounds they have. Remember the 'No Shirt. No Shoes. No Service.' signs? What about 'Cash Only. No Credit.' signs? The fact is that it does matter if he has turned business away and it has yet to be reported that he has.

slave41couple -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/14/2006 8:41:11 AM)
Same thing is going on in my parents town of Mason, Ohio... http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051016/NEWS01/510160377/-1/CINCI

RavenMuse -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/14/2006 9:01:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Oh, and Shreveport: where exactly did Shakespeare say that? I don't believe he did. But it could be a misquote from Henry VI Part II Act 4, John Cade: I thank you good people: there shall be no money; all shall eat and drink on my score; and I will apparel them all in one livery, that they may agree like brothers and worship me their lord. Dick the butcher: The first thing we do, lets kill all the lawyers. John Cade: Nay, that I mean to do. Is not this a lamentable thing, that the skin of an innocent lamb should be made parchment? that parchment, being scribbled o'er, should undo a man?.........

NakedOnMyChain -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/14/2006 9:02:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes What he should have done, rather than posting a sign, is when someone tried to order in some language other than English, just looked at them blankly, and shrugged, shaken his head, etc. That way, he can truthfully claim he couldn't understand the non-English speakers, thereby forcing them to speak English if they want a sandwich, and he wouldn't have made a tangible record of "discriminating". He makes his point, gets what he wants, and no red cape is waved under the noses of the civil liberties groups. Yep. I agree. I admittedly don't speak any foreign languages, and if someone tried telling me they wanted something in a language other than English, I wouldn't have to feign ignorance. Nor would most people. Nor should we be expected to. You don't need a sign to represent common sense. Of course, if I could reasonably understand someone due to broken English, hand gestures, or smoke signals, I'd still serve them.

mnottertail -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/14/2006 9:06:07 AM)
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.

marieToo -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/14/2006 9:24:32 AM)
What I wanna know is what these cheesesteaks are all about. Never been to Geno's. Don't have one that i know of in my area. Do they taste good?

mnottertail -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/14/2006 9:42:58 AM)
Take-out. anal burning.

Gauge -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/14/2006 10:27:03 AM)
quote: What I'm saying is pretty simple, Gauge. You can't have an OPINION on the question of whether he has turned away customers, because that's a question of fact, not opinion. And I don't see how you can claim to know any facts about this case if you're just going on the basis of what's been reported on Yahoo News. (For example: You don't even know whether it's been reported that he has turned away customers. All you know is that he claims he hasn't, and you don't know of any evidence to the contrary.) And all I know is that there's a sign at Geno's restaurant that says: "This is America! Order in English." That's pretty much all anyone knows at this point. OK... this is borderline silly, now I have to site sources I have read and seen. Wonderful. I have read it in my local newspaper. I have seen stories on TV news. I have read it from several online sources (some of which I do not remember what the URL is but I suppose if forced to I could find them). It is my logically drawn conclusion that someone would have come forward by now had they been turned away. The news media is my only source and I am not an endeared friend of the owner nor am I an employee of Geno's therefore, I am not privy to inside facts. Would it not seem logical at this point to draw the same conclusion that I have? Until there is conclusive proof or allegation of the contrary I stand by my claims. This is becoming almost a matter of semantics between you and I. I am not going to continue a debate along those lines. I was not present at the 9/11 attacks, and I have accepted many reports on that matter that came through the media. I guess that means that I am folowing these reports blindly and drawing conclusions and opinions that have no foundation because I wasn't there. I wasn't in WW2. I wasn't there at JFK's assassination. I wasn't there at the fall of the Roman Empire. Silly me.

marieToo -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/14/2006 1:53:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Take-out. anal burning. Awww geeeeezzzzzzzzzzz!!

MrrPete -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/14/2006 2:48:39 PM)
For more info on this topic just Google on: geno order in english I got 244,000 hits What ever happened to the signs that said, " we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone!" Three cheers for Geno

Lordandmaster -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/14/2006 8:13:21 PM)
If you think you can compare the information you have about Geno's cheese-steak restaurant to the information that's available about 9/11, World War II, the JFK assassination, or the fall of the Roman Empire, then yes--we have fundamentally different views about what it means to draw reasonable conclusions from available evidence. But I don't really understand why you keep harping on that. The main issue is this (as I've said many times already): the question of whether he has turned away customers is irrelevant to the city's contention. Since you didn't respond to anything I've said about that, I assume you agree that a business owner can't put ANY sign he wants on his property. The issue, if you agree to that extent, isn't "Is a business owner permitted to conduct his business in any way he sees fit," but "Does a sign that says 'This is America! Order in English' discourage patronage from people who don't speak English well?" quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge I was not present at the 9/11 attacks, and I have accepted many reports on that matter that came through the media. I guess that means that I am folowing these reports blindly and drawing conclusions and opinions that have no foundation because I wasn't there. I wasn't in WW2. I wasn't there at JFK's assassination. I wasn't there at the fall of the Roman Empire. Silly me.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Update on Philly restaurant owner (6/14/2006 8:17:24 PM)
That's a different issue, for two reasons. First, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" doesn't target a specific group. Second, if anyone challenged a sign like that, I am positive a court would force a business to remove it. If a business did in fact refuse service to anyone, without valid reasons, it would land in a lot of hot water. And I think you know that. It's amazing how the default position in the American mind seems to be that business owners can conduct their business however they see fit. You can point out time and again what's wrong with that view, why it's never been true, and why none of us would WANT it to be true--and then two minutes later, people will be like, "Uhhh, but business owners have the right to conduct their business however they see fit, right?" quote: ORIGINAL: MrrPete What ever happened to the signs that said, " we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone!"

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