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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/13/2006 10:02:42 AM   
DesertRat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

...turning "pieces" of herself over to me. As long as she keeps those pieces to herself, her submission is incomplete.

So it isn't about breaking her spirit or making her docile like a plowhorse; it is about getting her to open up completely. Until it happens, it seems like we're just going through the motions.


I agree with the statements quoted above. In fact, until it happens...or starts to, anyway...it doesn't even seem like "going through the motions". Not to me, anyway.

Bob

< Message edited by DesertRat -- 6/13/2006 10:06:35 AM >


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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/13/2006 10:04:47 AM   
missalice


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well... I've been considering posting here, asking for help on this matter. I have a slave pet who desperately wants to be broken, however I consider him already broken and don't think it's possible to re-break him... at least until he's been mended, and then, I don't think he will NEED breaking... he and I are taking a break from our 24/7 relationship due to the fact that I uncollared him for his decision to give up custody of his daughter (not mine) against my wishes -- and that he lied to me about the situation.
Now -- Add to the fact that I'm desperately in love with the little pet.... and a plethora of other issues that'd take several pages to bitch about.
Sigh. Maybe I'll post the saga when I get a chance...
Anyway. Breaking someone, to me, means inducing such trauma to their mind that they completely CHANGE their mentality and you can reform it to your desire. You destroy their existing mental programming and re-install new programming. It's dangerous as hell, and I wouldn't attempt it lightly....

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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/13/2006 10:18:39 AM   
aellea


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it's been proven you can get superior results with love & kindness rather than breaking... i would think that someone that would insist on "breaking" would not be the ideal choice of a dom

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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/13/2006 10:39:12 AM   
Lilmiss0


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Lacaena ... I just wanted to say thank you for your reflections. I was so smiling reading what you had written, it feels like youv'e given me a little light because that is how I feel, that 'breaking' can if done in a loving (safe) way enduce the ultimate source and art of submission. Truly, thank you Sweetie!

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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/13/2006 10:45:30 AM   
Lilmiss0


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Oh Desert Rat, I am loving these opinions, wow, its really making me quite breathless because what I'm finding is that very intelligent people are communicating what I have been unable to. It is as though finally the pieces of this puzzle I have are coming together and I'm feeling inspired. I most agree with what you said Desert Rat, and thank you kindly for helping me to understand.

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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/13/2006 10:58:20 AM   
Lilmiss0


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And yes MarieToo, I agree with you also. I am a dicontomy really. Theres the half of me that is a self fulfilling, autonomous individual and there is the other half ablazed with passion to submit. I love to be submissive and yet there is something in me, my autonomous side that doesn't want to give my submission even though I do truly want to submit. In being broken I think I mean reaching a state of knowing that my willingness to submit is irrespective of the fact that I will submit, that is to say I feel unless I know my submission can be taken from me, when I am submissive of my own accord, to an extent as Desert Rat said, its like Im going through the motions. But my spirit, that is what makes me me and never would I want to be broken in away that would destroy the essence of who I am. That would quate to a nothingness rather than acute submissiveness I believe.

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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/13/2006 2:25:27 PM   
DQuixote


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Ah, the eccentricity of the English language. ‘broken’ can mean so many things – good and bad - that there really isn’t one catch-all definition.

My personal definition would be ‘the temporary breaking of her pride / will / defiance in favor of my own will.’ Before I get flamed to a crisp, let me explain that this definition only applies in very a specific scenario, and under severely controlled circumstances, and with a specific type of submissive (more accurately ‘bottom’).

For example; I have a particular kink for chastity devices. Take a defiant sub – SAMmy as it’s often called – and put her in a chastity belt. Tease, cajole and tempt her until her pride (I will not beg for orgasm) is over-ridden by her desire (I need to orgasm). Once she begs for release, I would consider her ‘broken’.

The point here is that the breaking process is
- Part of a play
- Set within a defined scope of hard limits
- Not permanent (Next week we can do it again – and have just as much fun.)
- Neither physically nor psychologically damaging.
- Understood and agreed on by both parties.
Regards
DQ

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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/13/2006 3:03:27 PM   
CERCKL


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<fast reply>

Broken???
Brings out the dustpan and broom, then throws away...
Personally, I don't break what is mine; influence, teach, direct, control but not break.
Breaking reeks too much of manipulation, a little psychological understanding and throwing a match into a pile of gasoline soaked rags...I prefer to learn, find out about and then help to create, be the artist.

C

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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/13/2006 3:21:11 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lilmiss0

Lacaena ... I just wanted to say thank you for your reflections. I was so smiling reading what you had written, it feels like youv'e given me a little light because that is how I feel, that 'breaking' can if done in a loving (safe) way enduce the ultimate source and art of submission. Truly, thank you Sweetie!

There's a frequent saying in the bdsm world

"Submission is not when a slave crawls to you after being beaten bloody, but after a single look on your face."

Think about it.

Wanting to be beaten until you cry mercy is a pretty hot and cool thing, wanting someone you know won't stop just because you cry "ouch" wanting someone who won't let you manipulate him at least in terms of play...that's nice.

But it's not submission, it's not service, it's not obedience, and it's certainly not some HIGHER form of anything.  It's you getting to feel your sub fuzzies.

Is a sub less artful in their submission because they agree to obey and do so WITHOUT needing to be forced or pushed past the edge of their endurance?

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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/13/2006 6:09:26 PM   
WolfinShadow


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Oh MY God!!


Boy do I hate this term , I dont even like " breaking horses , BTW read on I will answer the question.

Now when I want a horse I go to a Horse trainer who " gentles " a horse , without the pain and fear of breaking , It makes a Much more friendly and confident animal . So I guess I say the same about slaves.

Having said all that I will say this , I have heard this term , its mostly an Internet term and I think its appalling. In fact I deal almost Daily with what I term " broken toys' People who have gotten with an Internet " Dom" who got all their Information from the Internet and from works of fiction . Like the Iddiots who write me and Ask me how to impale Someone on a dildo like in the " beauty books" I cannot believe common sense does not enter in here somewhere.

In conclusion

Breaking Bad
Gentleing GOOOOD

and some people need to get a clue.

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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/14/2006 2:42:30 PM   
Dustyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WolfinShadow

Oh MY God!!


Boy do I hate this term , I dont even like " breaking horses , BTW read on I will answer the question.

Now when I want a horse I go to a Horse trainer who " gentles " a horse , without the pain and fear of breaking , It makes a Much more friendly and confident animal . So I guess I say the same about slaves.

Having said all that I will say this , I have heard this term , its mostly an Internet term and I think its appalling. In fact I deal almost Daily with what I term " broken toys' People who have gotten with an Internet " Dom" who got all their Information from the Internet and from works of fiction . Like the Iddiots who write me and Ask me how to impale Someone on a dildo like in the " beauty books" I cannot believe common sense does not enter in here somewhere.

In conclusion

Breaking Bad
Gentleing GOOOOD

and some people need to get a clue.


I've got some exceptions to your comment about 'breaking horses', but we're not really talking equines here, are we?

The main question is how is the other person broken?  Were you the sole cause of it, or were they broken previously and you simply didn't want to see it?  Are they truly broken, or merely cracked and in need of minor repair?

Unless you somehow kill someone, without any external influences, rarely is one person the sole reason for anything happening in a relationship.  Previous relationships always come a'calling from time to time, no matter how loudly we proclaim we have no baggage.  Nagging fears, insecurities, and everything else frequently comes into play when yer not looking, and no matter how hard you pay attention, you will eventually look away long enough for a crack to form.

What the person who sees the broken one has to decide is whether or not they can be of any use to that person and how to go about it.  This gets more complicated when the broken one is convinced they aren't broken and attempts to hide from accepting it by dashing from person to person the instant that someone forces them to look at what is going on.  It's always easier to hide from problems than to face them head on and do something about them, but it's also the coward's way to go through life.

I've dealt with a number of 'broken' people over the years.  Some I have helped.  Some I continue helping every day.  Some have bit my hand too many times that I have gotten to the point that I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.  A select few, I would go so far as to roast marshmallows over.

It's not a matter of them being 'broken'.  It's a matter of what you do about it that counts for anything in this life or the next.  But that's just my take on it.


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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/14/2006 2:48:48 PM   
Arpig


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When is a slave broken?...When all the King's horses and all the King's men can't put her together again.

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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/14/2006 3:01:44 PM   
BreakMeShakeMe


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Gee...I don't know... last dom who tried to break me... is still recovering.....

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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/14/2006 11:26:09 PM   
targon


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Here's another way of looking at the word "broken"

Sometimes a sub tests her Dom. This is due to trust issues or fear. This can be an important thing to feel out a Dom. Will they be strong? Will they be there for me? Do they have my best interests at heart? Some would call it "the brat".

"broken" could simply mean getting past that phase in a relationship to a deeper level of trust/submission and a more joyful state.

In this definition, you might find more than one cycle of tests and more stages of trust to go through.

Targon

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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/15/2006 12:29:27 AM   
mathiasdomm


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Count my vote with those who wouldn't want a broken sub/slave.  That's my partner.  That's the person who makes my life easier and my days happier.  Why would I want a damaged product?  I think the concept you're engaging when you're talking about being 'broken' is complete submission.  Holding nothing back.  I imagine that you could get that in a breaking way (using the equine model we were presented with earlier), beat them about the ears, both mentally and physically, long enough and they'll do what you tell them.  But it seems like something less than pure to me, because they're not submitting to me, my teaching, or my character.  They're submitting to the fear of the blows. 

Or you can do it in the less efficient, slower, but  constructive process.  YOu can nurture them.  You can be strong for them.  And eventually you'll find that you've got the entire thing, elbows,eyelashes and all.  It just takes time and a lot of responsibility and the best decision making you can muster. 
-m  

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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/15/2006 1:13:40 AM   
LaMalinche


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I have been told before that someone wanted to "break me."  That just makes me roll my eyes and suggest that the individual go be an uber-dom somewhere else. 

You "break" someone by essintially brainwashing them and using the same techniques that abusers use on their victims.  Why anyone would want this done to them, I have no idea.  It creates an unhealthy situation.  Much like training a puppy. . . if you pet him on even days and beat him on odd days you are going to have an insane dog.  The same is true for people.



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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/15/2006 1:35:06 AM   
MsChatelaine


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Forgive me for jumping in; I was perusing the threads and this one especially caught my attention.  You are right on, I think, Targon.  The only use I've heard for "breaking" a slave is about breaking down walls of defenses, insecurities, and mistrusts that get instilled in us by regular life.  To remove those and find total peace in the zen of total trust is one of the greatest of life's achievements and is little short of heaven for a D/s dynamic.  The thing is, I doubt there are many dominants who know how to do this safely.  If you're not careful, I would suspect you could end up with a dependent vegetable form.
 
Princess Chatelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: targon

Here's another way of looking at the word "broken"

Sometimes a sub tests her Dom. This is due to trust issues or fear. This can be an important thing to feel out a Dom. Will they be strong? Will they be there for me? Do they have my best interests at heart? Some would call it "the brat".

"broken" could simply mean getting past that phase in a relationship to a deeper level of trust/submission and a more joyful state.

In this definition, you might find more than one cycle of tests and more stages of trust to go through.

Targon


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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/15/2006 8:16:11 PM   
targon


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msChatelaine: If you're not careful, I would suspect you could end up with a dependent vegetable form.

Please elaborate. We all depend on each other for different things. What pitfalls are you referring to?

This thread is getting interesting, again...

Targon


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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/15/2006 8:29:13 PM   
unownedredhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lacaena
A slave is broken when they are no longer psycholgically able to consider theif welfair.  They would be unable to look at a situation and go 'you know this may not be the brightest thing to do'.  Some times it's temporary and sometimes it's permanent.  Now I'm sure I'm going to get alot of people on my a** for this but I've even heard some people say that sub space is one form of temporarily breaking a person.  Before you get your knickers in a twist, or if you must, twist your knickers for a sec, but if you agreed with the first statement I made about being unable to consider their own welfare then think about a sub that is in deep sub space, and maybe this is true?  I don't know I'm not a psychologist.  Just some food for thought.  Why must breaking someone be synonymous with malicous? It could be done in a loving and controlled way by someone who knows what they are doing.  To some this might be the ultimate form of submission.  And of course permanently breaking someone is entirely different, just so you all don't think I'm totally psycho lol.  Just my reflection :)
Lacaena


you are so right.  I have recently seen broken slaves and they were unable to make even the most simplest decisions on their own.  They appeared ghost like. It was very distasteful.


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RE: When is a Slave broken? - 6/15/2006 9:12:08 PM   
LadyHugs


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Dear Lilmiss0, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
In the younger times in the lifestyle, 'words' were used differently then and today.
 
Breaking a slave, was a term very popular back in the 1970's.  However, it is no different than a term used of "breaking a habit."  Nobody wanted to see slaves injured; mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically and loose their sense of 'self.'
 
Because a slave/submissive are their own 'beings' to which master themselves before any other individual can 'master' them; it was similar to a horse, to which the communication in words did not really match until there was word association.  The training of horses was crude in the old days and some 'touched' horses and gentle forms of training existed.  Because most horses are "ask" types, they are so similar to us humans.  So, in short--we do much more if we're asked instead of told.
Horses are very wise, powerful creatures that really do not wish to harm.  The slave is also a wise, powerful creature and wishes no harm.
In training horses, it is an exchange of communications between horse and rider/driver, to which creates harmony.  The horse learns how to best serve the rider and the rider learns how to best communicate their wishes to the horse.  The finished product--a broken horse, means the communications barrier is broken, as both become one.  The rider the authority/dominant and the horse the passive power and might in submission/service-slave, pleasing the master/owner/rider/trainer.  There is a lot of trust required by horse and rider/driver.  I often depended on my horses to obey to get us both out of a problem.  Sometimes, I yielded to my horse--as they knew how to best handle the situation based on instincts and their nature.
 
I rather see that the term "broken" or "breaking" a slave be replaced by "Attitude Adjustment and Behavior Modification."  Replacing one habit with another as well as to learn that the more open and exposed to a slave's core soul, spirit, mind, emotion, physical self--the more a Master/Mistress can see all the pieces that makes you an individual "unique."  It is breaking down those barriers bit by bit; through communication, trust and pushing yourself a tad more out of the 'safe' feeling.  Trying something before deciding if you like or dislike.
 
I would not wish you to feel that you are 'roadkill' in submission, where you loose the desire, the spirit and the alive feeling.  The M/s and or D/s relationship should not feel in a constant state of agony but, a happy and alive feeling, looking forward to the next day as to where life will take you. 
 
If any dominant expresses the desire to 'break' you--I would ask them to expand on what they mean by breaking.  So much can be learned on what is the meaning of this word to them.  I'd avoid the rape, plunder and pillage sort, the mindless and spiritless slave desires by a dominant and or use and abuse sorts.  If it is breaking a few bad habits, like cussing, smoking, drugs, alcohol or putting yourself down--that I can live with.  Poor choices of words, should be explored at times; especially in using the word "breaking" or "broke," as it relates to BDSM.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 
 

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