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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/13/2006 1:29:23 PM   
amayos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: litleone8620

Almost every dominant i've talked to, after realizing i am 'technically' untrained they call me a 'blank canvass' or something to mold into their perfect submissive.



Using the painterly analogy: It is true the inexperienced and untrained are a joy to take under one's brush, but it is important to note that not every "blank canvas" is worth painting upon.


quote:

ORIGINAL: litleone8620
Why can't they take a submissive as they are, and train them to compliment their already existing personality?



What makes you think they cannot? It is essentially a matter of personal preference; some would prefer the blank slate, while others would rather know you are tried and true.



Personally, my viewpoint differs with some of the sentiments previously expressed in this thread. The desire for the untaught and the expression of that desire is not (always) "romantic crap". Years of so-called "experience" are not always beneficial, either. In fact, the wrong experience can be quite corrupting and wither an otherwise open and enthusiastic soul into being crass and cynical and defiant. In my opinion, the right training is key, and despite insistence by many that there is no right or wrong way to Master, there most certainly is. The primary reason I enjoy the untrained stems mainly from the fact I will spend less time undoing and more time building. Florid, sociopathic kinkmantic poppycock? No. A simple pragmatism as expressed by many dominant beings, I would say.

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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/13/2006 2:14:13 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
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quote:

ORIGINAL: litleone8620

Almost every dominant i've talked to, after realizing i am 'technically' untrained they call me a 'blank canvass' or something to mold into their perfect submissive.

Why can't they take a submissive as they are, and train them to compliment their already existing personality?


I think they are far more likely to have fun and get a good relationship if they do as you suggest.

I do that. By and large I've been very happy.

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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/13/2006 3:02:59 PM   
reticence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: litleone8620

This is the truth. I did not create this thread to have my lovelife solved, or insulted. I was just wanting the opinion of others as to why it seems that a dom can't accept a submissive (not myself) as they are and not need to mold them into something they aren't. (sorry, i had to quote you word for word, and i hope you don't mind.)


I have to apologize here, I am going to address this tangentially.

My Dom did accept me as I was, he liked me very much.  He also could see much potential in me, saw how much better of a person I could become.

I was certainly not a bad person, i was kind, fairly well educated, had a good sense of humor, and i still have all of those qualities.  Through his influence and guidance, I think i have become a better person.  Sometimes he would shine a mirror back on me, show me that I was very "all about me" he taught me something about not having to be "right" all the time.  He showed me that I do not have to indict other people for character flaws constantly, that I sure have enough of my own flaws to be taking care of.  He showed me how much my ego was involved in my personal interactions.  

I would like to repeat, I was not a bad person, but through his wisdom and effective teaching skills, I have improved, become a better, more mature and kinder person.  It was not about not accepting me as i was, it was about facilitating my growth as a person.  He learned and grew, too, it was not just about me changing. 

Sometimes it ain't so bad, painting over an already painted canvas (smile) you can make the reds more vivid, the whites more trainquil, and the black just a bit naughtier  (wiggles eyebrows)   

I hope I have added an element of the "training" subject for you to think about.  (smile)
edited for those atrocious spelling errors

< Message edited by reticence -- 6/13/2006 3:31:32 PM >

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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/13/2006 4:45:30 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


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quote:

ORIGINAL: reticence
I would like to repeat, I was not a bad person, but through his wisdom and effective teaching skills, I have improved, become a better, more mature and kinder person.  It was not about not accepting me as i was, it was about facilitating my growth as a person.  He learned and grew, too, it was not just about me changing. 


I think any good relationship is about facilitating the growth of your partner, and enhancing their lives. I expect this of all my friends and lovers, and I hold myself accountable to do this in return. I call it love.

You make an excellent point here, Reticence. But, perhaps instead of calling it training we should resurrect that old buzzword of the nineties: Empowerment?

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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/13/2006 5:49:51 PM   
reticence


Posts: 180
Joined: 2/28/2006
Status: offline 		Hello Vancouver_cinful

Thank you,
I guess there are a myriad of words that would work  (smile) empowerment not being one of my favorites. (not sure why, just guess it was so overused... it lost any meaning it might have had, by dilution)

The reason I think the word "training" worked for me was because some of those were very hard won lessons.  It is very painful to see yourself from someone else's eyes, when they are reflecting back the not-so- good parts of you. Especially when this person is the one you love, respect and honor above all others.   I am very sure those changes would have only been made within the context of our D/s relationship.  It was through his authority and my obedience to him that I slowed down and made an honest assessment of myself. He made it very clear what the behaviors were that he would tolerate, and what he would not.  It was my desire to be pleasing to him, my desire to be the very best person I could be for him, that was the impetus.   I am far from a finished product, now.... (smile)  I still have lots to learn, but am enjoying the journey..

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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/13/2006 5:51:20 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: litleone8620

I talk to a lot, but i am submissive to only One. I talk to them only to learn, not to be trained, or owned, or be with them in any other aspect of BDSM. I guess it seems that i have a harem full of dominates just waiting for their turn at me. Not true. I know at the beginning of almost every thread i've started, and most posts, i say 'most dominants i talk to' they are all the same dominants. There's several i talk to on a regular basis, but i've talked to many more for a day or two, and never heard from them again.

I apologize if i gave the impression of beng surrounded by dominants.



Oh, no, no, no, Sweetie. I was playing.  You be you!  It was just my attempt at humor.

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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/13/2006 6:13:23 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: reticence

Hello Vancouver_cinful

Thank you,
I guess there are a myriad of words that would work  (smile) empowerment not being one of my favorites. (not sure why, just guess it was so overused... it lost any meaning it might have had, by dilution)


I have to admit I almost gagged when I typed it. One more perfectly good word ruined by cult status. LOL

quote:

I am very sure those changes would have only been made within the context of our D/s relationship.  It was through his authority and my obedience to him that I slowed down and made an honest assessment of myself.


I know what you mean. I have embraced opportunities for growth when presented by a dominant partner, opportunities I'd balked at many times before.

quote:

It was my desire to be pleasing to him, my desire to be the very best person I could be for him, that was the impetus. 


Ah yes!! Sure missing this in my life right now. ::sigh::

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quote:


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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/13/2006 6:18:23 PM   
Fawne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: reticence
to be pleasing to him, my desire to be the very best person I could be for him, I am far from a finished product, now.... (smile)  I still have lots to learn, but am enjoying the journey..


 That is the best anyone could hope for, IMHO.

Besides: a blank canvas?
I hear what they are saying, but how can any adult be a total blank slate? I do not believe anyone could be.

best, fawne

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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/13/2006 6:31:35 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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I get what the OP is saying and it seems like all the questions have been answered. My only comment is that it seems people in BDSM focus more on "training" aka the growth of a relationship and sometimes I think we sometimes act/talk as though we feel we have the market cornered. I imagine it's partly because we have such wicked cool toys we play and "train" with. In truth I think all relationships go thru a similar process, just in different, and much less fun, ways. I cannot imagine how many times I have heard people that have been married awhile refer to "getting him or her trained" in reference to various tasks or behaviours. Its all a matter of perspective.

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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/13/2006 7:21:41 PM   
litleone8620


Posts: 3669
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline 		Well, i totally overreacted. Ooops for me.  It is very hard to determine sarcasm/humor from the written word. 

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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/13/2006 11:31:44 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: litleone8620

Almost every dominant i've talked to, after realizing i am 'technically' untrained they call me a 'blank canvass' or something to mold into their perfect submissive.

Why can't they take a submissive as they are, and train them to compliment their already existing personality?

I'd say because they're waxing poetic and not thinking about reality.

The reality is nobody is a blank canvas.  We all have histories, backgrounds and experiences that have already shaped us and changed us.  That's call Life.  Any submissive or slave is already someone, already has preconceived ideas and expectations about being a slave, has a history of good and bad experiences and all these things will affect who she is, her perfomance, and her reactions as a slave.  Its why I stress so much in several of my essays about the importance of a dominant getting to know the history of a slave before collaring them.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/14/2006 7:31:07 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I believe it only means if you haven't been trained or taught to someone else's preferences yet, your mind is likely still "fresh" and uncluttered.   If an artist has a canvas which has already been painted on, he will require extra work to paint over it. 

So, let's say you have learned from a past Dom that above all else, you are to drop to your knees when any man enters a room.  And now you have a new Dom who thinks that is ludicrous and wants you to stop.  He will have to "unteach" or "untrain" you that habit, because it will have been driven into you to drop to the floor every time a man walks in the door.  Maybe you were trained to do such without even thinking, and while your new Dom thinks you're awesome, he really hates this practice of yours.

If I had told my Master, "Take me as I am; I'm not changing." he would have moved on.  Thank God I didn't say that, because he has helped develop my mind and has developed me into someone I finally love.

Lastly, I want to say for all who scoff at the notion of training, if the OPs Dom were actually teaching her, she wouldn't be so confused with so many questions on a message board, and talking to every Dom who contacts her, filling her mind with even more confusion.  Just my 2 cents.

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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/14/2006 7:35:13 AM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fawne

I hear what they are saying, but how can any adult be a total blank slate? I do not believe anyone could be.


I agree. Heck, anyone who has had a baby knows we aren't even born a "blank canvas or slate". That idea went out a long time ago.

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quote:


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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/14/2006 8:18:28 AM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I believe it only means if you haven't been trained or taught to someone else's preferences yet, your mind is likely still "fresh" and uncluttered.   If an artist has a canvas which has already been painted on, he will require extra work to paint over it. 


Owned, thank you for clarifying this. The so-called "blank canvas" is not a commentary on the person's entirety of being; this is of course not what is meant when it is uttered, though from a few of the recent posts here it's apparent some are grossly misinterpreting. It is merely a reference to the lack of training and experience an individual may have in a particular area of practice. Your examples were direct and clear in conveying this.

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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/14/2006 8:24:29 AM   
litleone8620


Posts: 3669
Joined: 6/12/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos


quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I believe it only means if you haven't been trained or taught to someone else's preferences yet, your mind is likely still "fresh" and uncluttered.   If an artist has a canvas which has already been painted on, he will require extra work to paint over it. 


Owned, thank you for clarifying this. The so-called "blank canvas" is not a commentary on the person's entirety of being; this is of course not what is meant when it is uttered, though from a few of the recent posts here it's apparent some are grossly misinterpreting. It is merely a reference to the lack of training and experience an individual may have in a particular area of practice. Your examples were direct and clear in conveying this.


I wanted to thank you both for clarifying this. I didn't mean a blank canvass in the sense of i have no life experience in general. It would be stupid to say something like that.

Thank you, owned, for your last comment.  I realize i've posted a ridiculous amount of threads here, and everyone has been really helpful and all that. But yes, some people have made me more confused by their assuming this, that, and the other thing.



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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/14/2006 8:41:59 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		You are welcome, and thank you both for your added comments (Amayos & Littleone).

Funny, I was just putting on my make up, getting ready to go to work and was thinking of this thread.  I came back to post an additional comment.  As I was applying my make up, I thought, every morning my face is a "blank canvas."  Yet, it is still my face.  It is still what I look like.  I can apply make up in such a way to enhance its features.  The way I apply blush brings out my cheek bones.  The way I apply eye shadow draws attention to my eyes.  I believe the right training simply enhances the features the submissive already has.  No one is looking to give someone a complete overhaul (no one serious, anyway).  But our minds can always use some refinishing, or, uncluttering.    Using the silly make up analogy even further...I could say "Hey, I am who I am, so I'm not wearing make up and I'm going to let my eyebrows grow straight across.  Accept me or not."  But I don't do that.  I enhance what is already there.  And my esthitician is quite happy about that!! 

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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/14/2006 9:38:45 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
But I don't do that.  I enhance what is already there.  And my esthitician is quite happy about that!! 

That's a great analogy.

As one who believes in training and empowering and growing into MORE fulfillment as yourself within a relationship- the idea of molding and shaping your partner is certainly a sensible and positive thing on the whole.

And I think slaves can and do shape their masters over time as well.

The problem is when a cyber dork brings it up first thing and uses it as a seduction card- then it's a meaningless neon sign.

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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/14/2006 10:13:00 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Ahhhh a blan canvas experience wise but a complex intelligent woman as well...... Sounds damned good to me.... To answer the OP, I'm happy to have an untrained slave. She gets collared only after she has learned enough to understand what she is getting into ~ Gorean Slavery. Her learning is to understand what I want and when I want it. To learn her duties especially in the mundane chores which need to be done as well as some of the interesting chors like how to run my bath and what I expect during bath time (Us grizzlies have very definitive ideas about baths)...   Her training is the slave positions and protocols reguired and when they apply. The personal teaching and sharing of ideas happens all through this... I want to see what she brings to the table and thern use this to it's fullest as part of her development. This includes her further education if this is involved..... The more she develops as both a slave and a person, the better slave she will be.. 

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Master of Bruin Cottage

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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/14/2006 2:18:59 PM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
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Status: offline 		If she is a canvas, I'm finger painting.

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RE: Untrained slaves-a blank canvass? - 6/14/2006 2:30:00 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		I do not believe in "training". A sub of mine is expected to learn my wants (with help from me) and to try to meet them, just as I expect to learn my subs wants and needs and to try to meet them....in the final analysis a BDSM relationship is no different than any other...we each bring something to the relationship and we each get something pout of it....what differs is exactly what we bring and get out of it.

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