Judge upholds birth control rules (Full Version)

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subspaceseven -> Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 5:56:47 AM)

It seems the legal battle is starting to show that religions are going to have a hard time proving that "paying for insurance that offers birth control is somehow restricting their religious freedoms. From a Bush appointed judge...

The burden of which plaintiffs complain is that funds, which plaintiffs will contribute to a group health plan, might, after a series of independent decisions by health care providers and patients covered by [an employer's health] plan, subsidize someone else’s participation in an activity that is condemned by plaintiffs’ religion. . . . [Federal religious freedom law] is a shield, not a sword. It protects individuals from substantial burdens on religious exercise that occur when the government coerces action one’s religion forbids, or forbids action one’s religion requires; it is not a means to force one’s religious practices upon others. [It] does not protect against the slight burden on religious exercise that arises when one’s money circuitously flows to support the conduct of other free-exercise-wielding individuals who hold religious beliefs that differ from one’s own. . . .

[T]he health care plan will offend plaintiffs’ religious beliefs only if an [] employee (or covered family member) makes an independent decision to use the plan to cover counseling related to or the purchase of contraceptives. Already, [plaintiffs] pay salaries to their employees—money the employees may use to purchase contraceptives or to contribute to a religious organization. By comparison, the contribution to a health care plan has no more than a de minimus impact on the plaintiff’s religious beliefs than paying salaries and other benefits to employees.


http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/10/01/931671/bush-appointed-judge-rejects-catholic-employers-challenge-to-birth-control-access-rules/





kalikshama -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 6:07:11 AM)

quote:

By comparison, the contribution to a health care plan has no more than a de minimus impact on the plaintiff’s religious beliefs than paying salaries and other benefits to employees.


De minimus - An abbreviated form of the Latin Maxim de minimis non curat lex, "the law cares not for small things." A legal doctrine by which a court refuses to consider trifling matters.

[sm=champ.gif]





searching4mysir -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 6:09:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

By comparison, the contribution to a health care plan has no more than a de minimus impact on the plaintiff’s religious beliefs than paying salaries and other benefits to employees.


De minimus - An abbreviated form of the Latin Maxim de minimis non curat lex, "the law cares not for small things." A legal doctrine by which a court refuses to consider trifling matters.

[sm=champ.gif]





Excommunication is not a trifling matter, though.




subspaceseven -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 6:15:26 AM)

How is anyone getting excommunicated??? Gee talk about stretching the matter




kalikshama -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 6:33:02 AM)

CatholicView welcomes Father Phil Bloom, pastor of Holy Family Church in Seattle, Washington who is speaking on the timeless issue “The Roman Catholic Stance on Birth Control” Father Bloom has been a priest of the Archdiocese of Seattle for 30 years, having served seven of those years (1987-94) as a Maryknoll Associate in Peru. Father Bloom received his religious education at public elementary & secondary schools, B.A. in Philosophy from St. Thomas Seminary, Kenmore, WA; S.T.B. from Gregorian University, Rome and S.T.L. from Angelicum in Rome. He was ordained at St Peter’s Basilica, Rome in 1971. He is a diocesan priest, not belonging to a religious order, but is directly under the authority of the bishop. Unlike a religious order priest, a diocesan priest does not take a vow of poverty.

...CatholicView: If a couple practices a form of birth control other than NFP, are they excommunicated from the Church?

Fr Bloom: They are not excommunicated, but, objectively, they are committing mortal sin. The fact that people react so strongly against the Catholic teaching on birth control indicates some level of discomfort. The Catechism says, “no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man.” (#1860)

CatholicView: If not excommunicated for this, are they allowed to receive Holy Communion?

Fr Bloom: They must first seek the sacrament of reconciliation, which of course implies a sincere desire to amend ones life. The fact that so many Catholics have poorly formed consciences concerning birth control, cohabitation, etc. does not make these practices right – nor does it take away the harmful consequences. I know couples, who for whatever reason are not following this teaching, that go to Mass, but refrain from communion. That is hard, but better than receiving communion outside the state of Grace. (See I Cor 11:27)

CatholicView: Fr Bloom, do you believe that Catholics will, should they die and are using birth control other than NFP, lose their immortal souls?

Fr Bloom: If they are doing so knowingly and deliberately, yes. Of course, no matter what the weaknesses and compromises, one should always pray for the grace of final repentance – both for one’s own self and others.

CatholicView: If a couple does use another form of birth control and feel it is right for them, would the church accept their decision and let their conscience guide them?

Fr Bloom: People do a lot of wrong things and feel it is right for them. I mentioned cohabitation. A more extreme example might be someone joining the KKK or Aryan Nation. Would anyone tell a racist or an anti-Semite to just let their conscience be their guide? We need to help young people form correct consciences.

CatholicView: Realizing that many have left the Church under the weight of this ruling and knowing that some Catholics do not adhere to NFP, do you think in time the Church will approve of other means of non-abortive birth control measures?

Fr Bloom: The Church will probably be smaller in the future. Already the majority of our young people have drifted away or joined Bible churches. My conviction is we need to teach the fullness of Jesus’ teaching (which includes marital fecundity) and let people decide for themselves. It’s not fair – nor does it work in the long run – to try to keep people in by watering things down. Jesus offers unlimited mercy, but also heroic sacrifice – and the grace to do it.

Cardinal George made an important observation in his Lenten retreat to the Holy Father and Roman Curia. He said we must be like the early Christians. They recognized they were a small minority, but “they spoke as if they were a majority” because they were already conscious of the Church’s universal mission. Even if only a small number listen, we must proclaim Jesus’ message to all. The Internet is a good vehicle for that.

CatholicView: If it is dangerous for a woman to become pregnant, is she then excused from NFP?

Fr Bloom: She needs more support from trained NFP instructors and knowledgeable medical professionals, as well as a very loving husband. According to the World Health Organization, when used correctly, NFP is as effective as the Pill.

Read more: http://catholicvu.com/newpage30.htm




kalikshama -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 6:40:02 AM)

I was raised Catholic; my mother was once a very devout Catholic. We are Unitarian Universalists now. My sister is raising her children in the faith of her husband, Judaism.




farglebargle -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 6:44:55 AM)

FWIW, no one in the "real world" gives a shit if some church 'excommunicates" someone. That sounds like a civil suit between the 'church' and the 'mark' if anything, if the sucker can show he's been defrauded or something.

" the contribution to a health care plan has no more than a de minimus impact on the plaintiff’s religious beliefs than paying salaries and other benefits to employees."

This really is the final nail in the coffin for this topic.




tazzygirl -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 6:48:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

By comparison, the contribution to a health care plan has no more than a de minimus impact on the plaintiff’s religious beliefs than paying salaries and other benefits to employees.


De minimus - An abbreviated form of the Latin Maxim de minimis non curat lex, "the law cares not for small things." A legal doctrine by which a court refuses to consider trifling matters.

[sm=champ.gif]





Excommunication is not a trifling matter, though.


Many Catholics use birth control... other than the approved kind.




subspaceseven -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 6:49:36 AM)

So what of all the religious organizations that have offered birth control for years before this healthcare law??

Notre Dame Univ. has offered birth control under their health plan for decades, is the church going to stop taking their money??? No, this is noting more than a political game during an election year, after the election this issue will go away, and many who work for religious organizations will have it covered by their health care just like it has been for years

The judge is simply pointing out that the argument saying it is against their religious freedom is not a winning argument. It does nothing to stop them from personally following their faith, it does stop them from forcing others to following their religion and its views concerning birth control





searching4mysir -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 6:50:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

By comparison, the contribution to a health care plan has no more than a de minimus impact on the plaintiff’s religious beliefs than paying salaries and other benefits to employees.


De minimus - An abbreviated form of the Latin Maxim de minimis non curat lex, "the law cares not for small things." A legal doctrine by which a court refuses to consider trifling matters.

[sm=champ.gif]





Excommunication is not a trifling matter, though.


Many Catholics use birth control... other than the approved kind.



And they are considered to be in a state of mortal sin and should be refraining from receiving Holy Communion until after they have repented and confessed.




searching4mysir -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 6:54:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subspaceseven

So what of all the religious organizations that have offered birth control for years before this healthcare law??

Notre Dame Univ. has offered birth control under their health plan for decades, is the church going to stop taking their money??? No, this is noting more than a political game during an election year, after the election this issue will go away, and many who work for religious organizations will have it covered by their health care just like it has been for years

The judge is simply pointing out that the argument saying it is against their religious freedom is not a winning argument. It does nothing to stop them from personally following their faith, it does stop them from forcing others to following their religion and its views concerning birth control





It would not surprise me in the least to see NDU lose their "Catholic" standing in the next several years.

The judge does not understand the Catholic faith. No one is stopping the employee from using birth control, sterilizing themselves or having an abortion. Having this company pay for it, even in part, makes them complicit and just as guilty as the person doing it themselves. Driving someone to get an abortion is just as excommunicable as getting the abortion themselves.




kalikshama -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 7:07:59 AM)

"[T]he health care plan will offend plaintiffs’ religious beliefs only if an employee (or covered family member) makes an independent decision to use the plan to cover counseling related to or the purchase of contraceptives. Already, [plaintiffs] pay salaries to their employees—money the employees may use to purchase contraceptives or to contribute to a religious organization. By comparison, the contribution to a health care plan has no more than a de minimus impact on the plaintiff’s religious beliefs than paying salaries and other benefits to employees."




tazzygirl -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 7:40:35 AM)

quote:

And they are considered to be in a state of mortal sin and should be refraining from receiving Holy Communion until after they have repented and confessed.


And most consider it a personal and private matter and wont do so. Fact is, the world is changing. Its time the church changed too. The days of abject fear of excommunication are long over.




mnottertail -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 7:54:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

I was raised Catholic; my mother was once a very devout Catholic. We are Unitarian Universalists now. My sister is raising her children in the faith of her husband, Judaism.


Do you know that in the 1954 study, The Female Orgasm by Alfred Kinsey, lapsed catholic girls exhibited the best of the right sort of attributes I seek in a poor country slave?   

Filthy little whores, are they.




subspaceseven -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 11:20:04 AM)

Did you even read the finding, or are facts that do not agree with your thought process just blocked

The Catholics had no problem in the years before with this issue, as many organizations run by the church offered this to their employees





papassion -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 1:16:30 PM)


I don't know so I'm asking, Are there any Muslim hospitals anywhere in the US? Will they be required to follow the same rules as Catholic hospitals regarding birth control procedures and products ?

I know there are Muslim schools. Will they be required to offer the "morning after" pill that schools in some states are now required to offer?




mnottertail -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 1:33:47 PM)

Do not conflate state law with federal law, it is nonsensical.  If your google is broke, please get it fixed.


The federal law gives no fuck if they are buddhist hospitals, muslim hospitals, or heathen hospitals, it makes no law regarding religion.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 1:46:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


I don't know so I'm asking, Are there any Muslim hospitals anywhere in the US? Will they be required to follow the same rules as Catholic hospitals regarding birth control procedures and products ?

I know there are Muslim schools. Will they be required to offer the "morning after" pill that schools in some states are now required to offer?

Apparently, according to this. http://www.shawuniversitymosque.org/JTaqwa/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1698 there are no muslim hospitals.

As for them being required to have BC as part of the insurance coverage like everyone else, I dont see why not.
Apparently, birth control as long as it isnt permanent (vasectomy, tubes tied, etc) is OK with Islamics as long as both partners agree. http://islamiclearningmaterials.com/islam-birth-control/
Islamics also are against abortion EXCEPT in cases of rape/incest, severe birth defects or danger to the mother's life. http://islamiclearningmaterials.com/islam-abortion/

It would make sense, then, that an Islamic owned company would offer as part of their insurance package birth control and even limited coverage for abortions.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 2:36:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir


quote:

ORIGINAL: subspaceseven

So what of all the religious organizations that have offered birth control for years before this healthcare law??

Notre Dame Univ. has offered birth control under their health plan for decades, is the church going to stop taking their money??? No, this is noting more than a political game during an election year, after the election this issue will go away, and many who work for religious organizations will have it covered by their health care just like it has been for years

The judge is simply pointing out that the argument saying it is against their religious freedom is not a winning argument. It does nothing to stop them from personally following their faith, it does stop them from forcing others to following their religion and its views concerning birth control





It would not surprise me in the least to see NDU lose their "Catholic" standing in the next several years.

The judge does not understand the Catholic faith. No one is stopping the employee from using birth control, sterilizing themselves or having an abortion. Having this company pay for it, even in part, makes them complicit and just as guilty as the person doing it themselves. Driving someone to get an abortion is just as excommunicable as getting the abortion themselves.


I fail to understand how participating in an insurance system which allows for coverage of abortion is "driving" anyone to get an abortion, anymore than than participating in an insurance system "drives" anyone to get a blood transfusion or medical advice (that some religions prohibit).

So by your rationale, why should I have to pay taxes when I disagree, due to my religious heritage, with many things the government does? For example, raising cattle for slaughter (through government farm subsidies), war, etc.? Why do YOU force ME to participate in all of these other things by paying taxes? And should I be allowed to have a religious exemption from having to pay my taxes because of this? By your logic, I should.




tazzygirl -> RE: Judge upholds birth control rules (10/2/2012 3:05:01 PM)

LOL

When she can explain why people should follow a religion that holds such events as the Joust of the Whores then she can have my attention on excommunication.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Alexander_VI

http://gawker.com/5539334/joust-of-the-whores-the-worst-popes-in-history




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