RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed)

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DomYngBlk -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/5/2012 10:07:25 AM)
Its simple logic and looking at the past. 1. The amount of Auto Plants located in the North has been dwindling for years. .... 2. The Anti-UAW ferver in the Board Rooms of the major players made this happen. 3. Parts plants are best located within a reasonable distance to the tier 1 factory. 4. Without the bailout the chances that any Car Company in existence or new would have kept these plants...especially in toledo....in the North or even the USA was very very slim. 5. Without these plants the states of Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania and New York would have beeen fucked. 6. The Bailout saved a whole section of the country. Just as Billion Dollar subsidies gave the Oil Companies funds to explore and research new ways to find Oil and bring on new fields. 7. Early 2009. There was no capital standing up and saying they had a way forward on the Auto Industry. None, zero, nada............that there could have been is simply fantasy.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/5/2012 12:21:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk Its simple logic and looking at the past. 1. The amount of Auto Plants located in the North has been dwindling for years. .... 2. The Anti-UAW ferver in the Board Rooms of the major players made this happen. 3. Parts plants are best located within a reasonable distance to the tier 1 factory. Since things roll off more on a "Just In Time" schedule, damn right they better be close. You can't take an order for a Jeep, have it customized to your customer's spec's and get it delivered in a reasonable timeframe unless you make every option possible. I want to say the Head of Maintenance at the place that installs the dashboard said there were 128 different choices that go into the damn dashboard. Truck rolls up and unloads in a FIFO manner and the orders simply follow each part. It's really quite amazing to see. I believe they got their turn-around down to a couple minutes per unit. That is, from the time the part comes off the semi to the time when it is back in the loading system was a couple minutes. And, they were working on getting it more efficient. I think it was Jeep that mandated all Just In Time plants be located within 5 miles. 4. Without the bailout the chances that any Car Company in existence or new would have kept these plants...especially in toledo....in the North or even the USA was very very slim. Riiiight, because the Toledo Jeep plants complex is the very definition of inefficiency. And, the North Toledo GM PowerTrain plant isn't one of the top rated transmission plants in North America. And, the Perrysburg Chrysler Machine plant isn't one of the top plants in the Midwest. Riiiiight. And, since the GM PowerTrain plant is such a piece of shit that no one would have wanted it, it's a good thing they didn't dump shitloads of money to retool it, including doubling the plant size and adding both 6-speed and 8-speed transmissions. It's a damn good thing they didn't do... shit. They did do that. quote: 5. Without these plants the states of Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania and New York would have beeen fucked. 6. The Bailout saved a whole section of the country. Just as Billion Dollar subsidies gave the Oil Companies funds to explore and research new ways to find Oil and bring on new fields. 7. Early 2009. There was no capital standing up and saying they had a way forward on the Auto Industry. None, zero, nada............that there could have been is simply fantasy. Why would they? GM and Chrysler were being bailed out. The Government was giving GM to the Union. Chrysler was being ripped from the bondholders to pay off the Unions and the US Government took the reins. The guy that said he didn't want to run Chrysler ended up telling the CEO to step down. Now, it's no longer a US Company, either. Fiat is majority shareholder. Still think you can "Buy American" at a Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep auto lot? You can make up scenarios about what would have happened had the auto companies not been bailed out. I can match every single one of them with a scenario I make up.

DomYngBlk -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/5/2012 12:48:48 PM)
LOL you never make any sense. Can you possibly imagine the shit that would have happened to the school systems in and around lucas county if those places would have closed? Man this stuff matters. Its not a fantasy discussion. You can look around and say...yeah. those plants close. people leave, housing values fall, tax revenues fall further....schools down the tubes...Cops laid off, Fire stations closed. Its not hypothetical. I always hear about inefficient plants. Whatever happened to companies trying to fix things rather than closing and moving on? Fucked up CEO's like Jack Welsh and Mitt Romney is what happened. Somehow you seem to have a notion that life would have been fine.........It wouldn't.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/5/2012 9:54:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk LOL you never make any sense. Can you possibly imagine the shit that would have happened to the school systems in and around lucas county if those places would have closed? Man this stuff matters. Its not a fantasy discussion. You can look around and say...yeah. those plants close. people leave, housing values fall, tax revenues fall further....schools down the tubes...Cops laid off, Fire stations closed. Its not hypothetical. I always hear about inefficient plants. Whatever happened to companies trying to fix things rather than closing and moving on? Fucked up CEO's like Jack Welsh and Mitt Romney is what happened. Somehow you seem to have a notion that life would have been fine.........It wouldn't. It would have been fine. Of that, I have no doubt. Would it have been rough? Sure as hell would have been. But, I do think that's a necessity, too. People leave (they're still leaving now). Schools go down the tubes (some would argue that's already the case). cops laid off, fire stations closed (fewer people to protect anyway) You can't tell me that no one would have come in to pick up the pieces and fill the auto demand needs. At least, you can't tell me that honestly. I simply can not fathom how you can't see beyond the first step. Yes, the auto plants closing would have been bad. Really bad. Really bad here, Detroit and the rest of the country. But, is it necessary to never experience the bad shit? Nothing has been corrected. It's all going to fall apart again. There isn't enough money to continue to spend, spend, spend. Today it's the Top 1% (lowest earnings for a Top 1%-er was $345k in 2009). Tomorrow, it's the Top 10%. Then, it's the Top 25% and on and on until there is not more % to increase taxes on. We'll still be out there spending away. All will be glorious, if only we could get people to pay more taxes!

subrob1967 -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/5/2012 10:07:36 PM)
The next Presidential debate... [image]local://upfiles/50404/28F6444020F5452AA1426146A7C19F84.jpg[/image]

Owner59 -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/5/2012 10:14:42 PM)
Good point......the president`s already won the debate........ Thanks!

DomYngBlk -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/6/2012 5:51:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk LOL you never make any sense. Can you possibly imagine the shit that would have happened to the school systems in and around lucas county if those places would have closed? Man this stuff matters. Its not a fantasy discussion. You can look around and say...yeah. those plants close. people leave, housing values fall, tax revenues fall further....schools down the tubes...Cops laid off, Fire stations closed. Its not hypothetical. I always hear about inefficient plants. Whatever happened to companies trying to fix things rather than closing and moving on? Fucked up CEO's like Jack Welsh and Mitt Romney is what happened. Somehow you seem to have a notion that life would have been fine.........It wouldn't. It would have been fine. Of that, I have no doubt. Would it have been rough? Sure as hell would have been. But, I do think that's a necessity, too. People leave (they're still leaving now). Schools go down the tubes (some would argue that's already the case). cops laid off, fire stations closed (fewer people to protect anyway) You can't tell me that no one would have come in to pick up the pieces and fill the auto demand needs. At least, you can't tell me that honestly. I simply can not fathom how you can't see beyond the first step. Yes, the auto plants closing would have been bad. Really bad. Really bad here, Detroit and the rest of the country. But, is it necessary to never experience the bad shit? Nothing has been corrected. It's all going to fall apart again. There isn't enough money to continue to spend, spend, spend. Today it's the Top 1% (lowest earnings for a Top 1%-er was $345k in 2009). Tomorrow, it's the Top 10%. Then, it's the Top 25% and on and on until there is not more % to increase taxes on. We'll still be out there spending away. All will be glorious, if only we could get people to pay more taxes! Why are you so pessimistic about life? Give me the data that says it is all going to fall apart again? We aren't giving the Auto Companies any more money. Are we? Tell me what did it hurt to do this? We've recovered taxpayer money. We've helped family after family to be able to go move on in areas all over the midwest. What would you have rather happened. All of them losing their houses to create an even larger housing problem? Next step? We've had this scenario being played out for years around here where plants close to either to go or mexico. Does someone come in and bring those plants back up? No......(see GM plant in Mansfield/Chrysler plant in Parma) Next step? Yes, I said that the next step would be total collapse. Just as you said people are already leaving, schools are in trouble. Can you possibly imagine the calamity? Who or what would have stepped in. God knows, you wouldn't want the Gov't to try and help out. Who would have? Why do you wish to impose hardship on your fellow citizens. If you were working in one of those plants would you have said....yeah...Obama shouldn't bail us out. I am fine with losing my house, my possessions.....I will go try to find a very much lower paying job and try to make it......Come on man be realistic. I actually feel bad for you. I see a person who has come to believe we need to please the rich in this country so that they will give us the scraps off their plates and keep things moving along. I pray that you and everyone like you will open their eyes and see that they need to stand up for themselves. Life is in your hands not theirs. Romney/Ryan love to throw Jesus around....I think we should too. James 5:1-5 is the best prescription for their reading.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/6/2012 8:47:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk LOL you never make any sense. Can you possibly imagine the shit that would have happened to the school systems in and around lucas county if those places would have closed? Man this stuff matters. Its not a fantasy discussion. You can look around and say...yeah. those plants close. people leave, housing values fall, tax revenues fall further....schools down the tubes...Cops laid off, Fire stations closed. Its not hypothetical. I always hear about inefficient plants. Whatever happened to companies trying to fix things rather than closing and moving on? Fucked up CEO's like Jack Welsh and Mitt Romney is what happened. Somehow you seem to have a notion that life would have been fine.........It wouldn't. It would have been fine. Of that, I have no doubt. Would it have been rough? Sure as hell would have been. But, I do think that's a necessity, too. People leave (they're still leaving now). Schools go down the tubes (some would argue that's already the case). cops laid off, fire stations closed (fewer people to protect anyway) You can't tell me that no one would have come in to pick up the pieces and fill the auto demand needs. At least, you can't tell me that honestly. I simply can not fathom how you can't see beyond the first step. Yes, the auto plants closing would have been bad. Really bad. Really bad here, Detroit and the rest of the country. But, is it necessary to never experience the bad shit? Nothing has been corrected. It's all going to fall apart again. There isn't enough money to continue to spend, spend, spend. Today it's the Top 1% (lowest earnings for a Top 1%-er was $345k in 2009). Tomorrow, it's the Top 10%. Then, it's the Top 25% and on and on until there is not more % to increase taxes on. We'll still be out there spending away. All will be glorious, if only we could get people to pay more taxes! Why are you so pessimistic about life? Give me the data that says it is all going to fall apart again? We aren't giving the Auto Companies any more money. Are we? Wonder how they'd have answered that question after loaning funds to Lee Iaccoca. quote: Tell me what did it hurt to do this? We've recovered taxpayer money. Not all of it, and with what we the taxpayer, via the Federal Government, still hold and how the stock price is tracking, we're not going to get our money back, either. quote: We've helped family after family to be able to go move on in areas all over the midwest. What would you have rather happened. All of them losing their houses to create an even larger housing problem? Next step? We've had this scenario being played out for years around here where plants close to either to go or mexico. Does someone come in and bring those plants back up? No......(see GM plant in Mansfield/Chrysler plant in Parma) And, why would anyone bring those plants backup? The demand is still being met. There isn't any great loss of supply to entice anyone to get into the business. Seriously, dude. Magna is a company in Canada that is involved in a lot of different areas of vehicle manufacturing. They run one of the plants at the Jeep Supplier park (originally built by Prism (I think) until they went under and then it changed hands with Chrysler a few times until Magna finally stepped in and has run it for the past few years), a plant in East Toledo that makes parts via injection molding, and a J.I.T. supplier for other Jeep/Chrysler/Dodge products made in the Toledo Jeep Assembly. And, they expanded their J.I.T. plant by 100% so they could start injection mold processes for a Mazda plant in MI. Magna didn't build the plant at the Supplier Park, nor did they build the plant in E. Toledo. They bought the plants out and started running them themselves. Seamless? Not sure about the E. Toledo plant (was done years and years ago), but the Supplier Park plant had no issues. Businesses will come in if there's a need. Bail the companies out and there is no need. Businesses move without reducing supply, there is no need. No excess demand is not an incentive to create more supply. quote: Next step? Yes, I said that the next step would be total collapse. Just as you said people are already leaving, schools are in trouble. Can you possibly imagine the calamity? Who or what would have stepped in. God knows, you wouldn't want the Gov't to try and help out. Who would have? Why do you wish to impose hardship on your fellow citizens. If you were working in one of those plants would you have said....yeah...Obama shouldn't bail us out. I am fine with losing my house, my possessions.....I will go try to find a very much lower paying job and try to make it......Come on man be realistic. I don't wish for hardship on anyone. But, it needs to happen to clear the bad investments. I can tell you either didn't research the Austrian Business Cycle or you didn't understand it (I'm guessing the former). quote: I actually feel bad for you. I see a person who has come to believe we need to please the rich in this country so that they will give us the scraps off their plates and keep things moving along. I pray that you and everyone like you will open their eyes and see that they need to stand up for themselves. Life is in your hands not theirs. Romney/Ryan love to throw Jesus around....I think we should too. James 5:1-5 is the best prescription for their reading. Do I believe we need to please the rich? Not by my definitions, but it would be other's. I don't believe we need to confiscate earnings from anyone. Put a tax on consumption and the rich will pay more taxes as they consume more. That puts things in the hands of the taxpayer, not the Government. You are taking a Top-Down crazy ass view of the Federal Government. The larger Government grows, the smaller liberty gets. Are regulations needed? Absolutely, but only in a "protect the rights of the Citizens" way. Boosting one business over another is wrong for Government to do (and, that absolutely means I have no problem cutting the "Big Oil subsidies" when we cut all business subsidies). Government intervention skews markets and those market skews are rarely taken into account when a bill is considered, written and passed. Read "Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt. It's amazingly in depth and easy to understand (Hell, I read it and understood it). It blasts away a lot of common political economic myths.

DomYngBlk -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/7/2012 6:10:56 AM)
Ok, you've not provided data on how things are falling apart again. Do you have any? So it didn't hurt but you are still going to complain about it? Why? The Gov't has done quite well considering the add on in taxes from people still being employed and the consequent lack of outlays for unemployment....etc. It was a great deal for the Gov't. The Point is that the magna plant and all other of the tier two suppliers stayed there because of the Assembly plant being there. Think of the Assembly plant being the queen bee and the rest of economic activity around them being the worker bee and drones. As I have said before the jobs that surround that hub of activity are at least, if not more, important than the jobs at the hub. Why do you think all the states in the south were willing to bend over and take it in the ass just to get the assembly plants? As evidenced by the past two years the demand grew back. It was a temporary lack of demand that was evidenced. You don't wish hardship on anyone but are fine in seeing it happen when it can be stopped? What is moral in that? Those are your neighbors and friends. People directly in your community. That is an extremely odd statement. Where is your proof that small gov't is better than big? Where is your proof that smaller gov't doesn't impinge on personal liberties? As far as gov't being involved in industry. It must be. It has to be. And it always has been. The Oil and Gas subsidies aren't necessarily a bad thing. They did help Oil and Gas to do R&D and find other fields and ways to open those old fields up. Do we need them now? No.....Gov't labs built the Internet. Do you think they shouldn't have done that? NASA led to the creation of countless businesses. Do you think we should track mining activities? Develop ways to control the production of Uranium and Titanium? A large Federal Gov't does that. Has that ability........

DesideriScuri -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/7/2012 7:27:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk Ok, you've not provided data on how things are falling apart again. Do you have any? Did I say things were falling apart, or were going to fall apart? Not having any data showing that things are falling apart does not preclude them falling apart in the future. quote: So it didn't hurt but you are still going to complain about it? Why? The Gov't has done quite well considering the add on in taxes from people still being employed and the consequent lack of outlays for unemployment....etc. It was a great deal for the Gov't. The Federal Government doesn't have to have any outlays for unemployment. Don't you get that? You are still ignoring the truth that we don't know what would have happened had nothing been done. We can't, either. And, it's all well and good to look back and say, "that wasn't so bad" now, but you have nothing to compare it to. Ford didn't get a bail out. Ford seems to be doing okay. Ford went through some extremely rough times in the few years leading up to the recession, but that was their restructuring, which made them more capable of withstanding the recession. And, they did that without Government money. quote: The Point is that the magna plant and all other of the tier two suppliers stayed there because of the Assembly plant being there. Think of the Assembly plant being the queen bee and the rest of economic activity around them being the worker bee and drones. As I have said before the jobs that surround that hub of activity are at least, if not more, important than the jobs at the hub. Why do you think all the states in the south were willing to bend over and take it in the ass just to get the assembly plants? As evidenced by the past two years the demand grew back. It was a temporary lack of demand that was evidenced. Actually, the Magna plant that expanded to do Mazda work made that change to stay in business. The plant initially went up to support the Jeep plant, but when the shit started to die out, they expanded to incorporate more work so they could stay in business. They went to Ford (Mazda) for the additional work. I no longer have contact with the Magna plant, so I don't know what they are currently doing since both Chrysler products they were suppliers for have been stopped. quote: You don't wish hardship on anyone but are fine in seeing it happen when it can be stopped? What is moral in that? Those are your neighbors and friends. People directly in your community. That is an extremely odd statement. I am fine seeing it now, rather than seeing it worse in the future. quote: Where is your proof that small gov't is better than big? Where is your proof that smaller gov't doesn't impinge on personal liberties? As far as gov't being involved in industry. It must be. It has to be. And it always has been. The Oil and Gas subsidies aren't necessarily a bad thing. They did help Oil and Gas to do R&D and find other fields and ways to open those old fields up. Do we need them now? No.....Gov't labs built the Internet. Do you think they shouldn't have done that? NASA led to the creation of countless businesses. Do you think we should track mining activities? Develop ways to control the production of Uranium and Titanium? A large Federal Gov't does that. Has that ability........ Government labs built the internet... for the Defense Dept., aka the "National Defence[sic]." They didn't do what they did to build the "internet" we know, use and rely on. NASA wasn't started to create businesses or develop any of the developments for yours and my use. All that stuff was developed for either itself, or the military. It just so happens that business saw the consumer benefits of those things and ran with them. Are Oil and Gas industries no longer doing R&D? And, I still disagree with Corporate Subsidies for businesses. How much do oil and gas companies spend on alternative energy research? You don't have to have a massive government to control all that stuff, either. You just accept that we do, so it's fine. How large does the Department of Education have to be? We have 40 Representatives in the House of Representatives on the Committee overseeing education, and 22 Senators in their branch's Committee. Those 62 people can't set standards? Shackle the Government and Free the People. Free the Government and Shackle the People.

DomYngBlk -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/7/2012 7:53:12 AM)
I think it all comes back to two things. I believe we should help people when they need help and I believe the goodness in people. I don't think you believe either thing. It is what separates liberals from conservatives...and what separates this country. If you can say you are ok with people that you know or even don't know suffering then you are truly fucked up.

slvemike4u -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/7/2012 8:38:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic For all the good it does me, I will be watching, in fact Im looking forward to it, but it wont be the highlight of my week. Im hoping to see it on cspan, After that I will be getting to spend ten days with my pet in DC/VA and WV, weeeeeeeee. SO I will miss the Ryan Biden debate, but will be back to see the others. Have fun......lol (lucky pet ;-)

TheHeretic -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/7/2012 9:06:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk I believe we should help people when they need help and I believe the goodness in people. Then why in hell would you place yourself on the Democrat side of the coin, DYB? Why would you embrace the philosophy that says government must be the middleman of charity, if you believe the people themselves are inherently good? Dems believe that charity and good works must be coordinated through coercion. I don't see how this reconciles with the claim you are making. Can you expand a bit, maybe?

subrob1967 -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/7/2012 9:12:21 AM)
It's amazing how you two are talking around each other, it's no wonder our country is so fucked up. [sm=lalala.gif]

DomYngBlk -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/7/2012 9:23:55 AM)
Through coercion? Help me with that. What do you mean coercion.

TheHeretic -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/7/2012 9:55:09 AM)
Aren't taxes coercive?

DomYngBlk -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/7/2012 9:59:37 AM)
How are taxes coercive when we all agree to pay them for the things we agree that we need? And, no, saying that you don't agree what a state, local or congressional body does, doesn't count. We give them power since we agree that the system of Gov't we have is best. If not, you should join the anarchists.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/7/2012 10:05:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk I think it all comes back to two things. I believe we should help people when they need help and I believe the goodness in people. I don't think you believe either thing. It is what separates liberals from conservatives...and what separates this country. If you can say you are ok with people that you know or even don't know suffering then you are truly fucked up. Then why in hell would you place yourself on the Democrat side of the coin, DYB? Why would you embrace the philosophy that says government must be the middleman of charity, if you believe the people themselves are inherently good? Dems believe that charity and good works must be coordinated through coercion. I don't see how this reconciles with the claim you are making. Can you expand a bit, maybe? quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk Through coercion? Help me with that. What do you mean coercion. You believe we should help people when they need help. I challenge you to find someone on here that doesn't agree with that. It won't happen. Why? Because, in general, we are a very charitable people. You believe in the goodness of people. How do you rectify that belief in the face of using Government (and yes, it is coercion) to do the work? The goodness of a person isn't how much he/she is willing to spend someone else's money, either. Taking someone's money through the threat of penalty and/or prison time, would qualify as coercion. If a liberal truly believed in the goodness of others, he/she would do their part and then rely on others to do their part. Government is not about letting people do their part. It is about forcing others to do what government thinks is their part.

TheHeretic -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/7/2012 10:06:59 AM)
Try not paying them. We may, as a society, come to certain social compacts to achieve goals, but all such compacts use coercion at some level, be it the cop who writes a speeding ticket, or the IRS agent who seizes a house.

DomYngBlk -> RE: Prez debate (schedule enclosed) (10/7/2012 2:51:12 PM)
As I said, as a Citizen you either agree to pay them and go along with the contract that is the USA. Or you try to overthrow the gov't. Can't see a middle ground for you. Thats why people bitching about taxes is funny. You or I have the full ability to have my voice heard, change the system if need be.........what is there to complain about on taxes? Vote..... But to go on further. Our charities have proved time and again unable and unwilling to meet all the needs that they are presented with. We live in an alledgedly Christian country but if you can find jesus anywhere let me know.......We've got wealth beyond measure. Incomparable. Yet, we can't feed, clothe, care for all the people that are here. We can't give every child a good education. Do you understand that most poor children can't catch up to their richer peers in education no matter how hard they try? We celebrate new technology as if it were Zues tossing it down to us from the mountain. Yet, vast members of this society can't access any of that. Won't be able to for lack of funds and access. How much money does the Roman Catholic Church spend on two issues. Abortion and Sexual Predator priests........Not a dime of any of that goes to help...anyone. Its not just the Catholics either. The two campaigns have spent what.....by now 700 million or so? Besides helping out some ad businesses and tv stations in swing states......what did that get? Its fucking nauseating. At the end, you see Gov't as something bad that is there to deny you something. My experience Gov't is there as an instrument to help people. The Democrats simply do that better than Republicans

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