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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/20/2012 6:28:05 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

I actually expect that this measure won't pass.

In Arizona as in California, Florida, etc . . . one never knows,
but I hope you are right. Personally, I'd rather see the Parties
return to the old, smoke filled nominating conventions. Much
more dramatic than having a line of asshole candidates
pledging their belief in the Bible and Grover Norquist
during a primary 'debate.'

(in reply to Zonie63)
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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/20/2012 12:32:32 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Voter apathy also represents a type of anti-intellectualism.


Actually, voter apathy isn't necessarily anti-intellectual, especially in a two-party system where both parties will keep the wheels turning and neither party will make the population particularly happy. Being fed up with a system that doesn't realistically respond to voting seems more like sanity than anything else.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/20/2012 6:35:56 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
However, I find no satisfaction in chastising America for being anti-intellectual. It is an ineffectual strategy.

Prove it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The solution is for the Left and Center Left to take back electoral power from the Ayn Randians, the Bible literalists, and the know-nothing Tea Party. That requires money and campaigning. Let's hope there is still time, or at least that the Left retains more than 40% of the Senate to stall the loss of social progress.

If you want to talk about an ineffectual strategy it's this whole partisan politics as usual. Looking at history we just don't have the numbers to consistently win long term if we just keep playing it as an R vs. D thing.

I'm hopeful that there are still a significant number of Americans in the republican party that are capable of thinking. That if we can raise awareness about these special interest groups who want to put an end to thinking and how they are influencing policy we can get the party to pull away from the fringe or the moderates to pull away from the party.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/21/2012 2:34:21 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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Two things have brought this thread to mind lately:

(a) I recently reconnected with a friend who's an academic, and I've been struck in both conversation and email exchanges by how convoluted and even (imho) muddled she can be. Every utterance seems overthought and laden with theory-speak and jargon. It does make me wonder a bit if there's something to the notion that too much "book learning" can undermine the ability to think clearly and express oneself straightforwardly. And yes, I realize I'm making quite a leap from a single person to all of academe!

(b) My work often includes editing text from scientists, and I do sometimes marvel at how they can string together sentences that boast lots five-dollar words but say nothing.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/21/2012 8:13:37 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		This is not uncommon, dcnovice.

For whatever reason, a lot of academics end up in the foggy realm of cloudcuckooland.

Fortunately, there are also a number of exceptions, like Feynman, Chomsky, Pinker, and so forth.

Of course, in some cases, the unreadability may also be due to the subject matter being Greek (e.g. there's several math proofs out there I can't follow).

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/21/2012 11:40:38 PM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline 		Anti-intellectualism...

Ever wonder why high school students want to be the star athletes or cheerleaders and not the star students? We, as a society revere sports figures. While school districts are cutting out art, music, even PE, the budgets for football especially, but all sports, have grown disproportionately. It's fine if Billy gets a "B-" in English so long as he leads his team to win the state championship.

Take the Penn State scandal, for instance. The NCAA took limited Penn State's scholarships to 15 for the coming years. Just eliminated the others. The NCAA scholarships are supposed to be for education. So instead of offering direct, non-football related educational scholarships that would allow several kids to get a college education they'd otherwise not be offered, the NCAA chose to focus on the football program. They could have sanctioned the program and educated worthy students at the same time.

But there are some changes in the air. Several years ago, when looking to help the students at one of NY's poorest schools, an after school program was started. Part of the program was the organization of a chess team. Brooklyn Castle tells the story of 5 of the students on this chess team--which has won more national championships than any other in the country. The kids also earn higher grades and tend to stay in school through to graduation, despite the difficulties in their lives. And the cool kids at this school? Not the athletes. The school doesn't have any sports programs. The cool kids are the chess stars. And nobody can tell me it doesn't take great higher level thinking skills to win a chess tournament.

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/22/2012 8:07:31 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

This is not uncommon, dcnovice.

For whatever reason, a lot of academics end up in the foggy realm of cloudcuckooland.

Fortunately, there are also a number of exceptions, like Feynman, Chomsky, Pinker, and so forth.

Of course, in some cases, the unreadability may also be due to the subject matter being Greek (e.g. there's several math proofs out there I can't follow).

IWYW,
— Aswad.



dc and Aswad, I would never make the contention that any and all intellectuals would make good leaders for a country. I think one still has to draw distinctions. But I still feel that being anti-intellectual in how we choose our leadership does hurt us. A stupid president is not a good thing. I don't care how "articulate" he might sound, or how "of the people" he might be. Leading a country with the size and complexity that we have requires someone smart.

_____________________________

~ ftp

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/22/2012 8:12:26 AM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		erieangel, it is one of the saddest things about the American school system that the artistically bright and gifted (whether it is language, music, art, etc.) are largely ignored. The amount of resources channeled into sports would be fine if other programs also received that type of funding.

Where the money goes, what gets funded and what does not get funded is a powerful statement about what people consider important. A society that is not willing to fund intellect, music, art, dance, etc., is one that is ultimately doomed to decline. I honestly believe that.

And as many on this thread have pointed out, education reform is necessary to bring about a shift in political culture in this country.

_____________________________

~ ftp

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/22/2012 9:13:46 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

If you want to talk about an ineffectual strategy it's this whole partisan politics as usual. Looking at history we just don't have the numbers to consistently win long term if we just keep playing it as an R vs. D thing.

Partisan politics in the US dates back to Adams v Jefferson. You are a tad late complaining about it.

Beyond that we are genetically and philosophically predisposed to tribalism. It is a preeminant characteristic of our species. Probably most species. We humans attach cognitively and emotionally to a group. That is why politics has always been partisan. That is why your ill-defined notion of some grand consensus lead by intellectuals is utopian nonsense.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/22/2012 11:46:06 PM   
erieangel


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Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline 		When I was in high school (back in the dark ages before the internet) we had all the sports. We also had a chess club, a model UN and several other clubs and activities for the non-athletic types. I was in the model UN and we had a total of 6 in the club--in a school of about 700!! That club taught me more about government, the UN and the world than any classroom would have. But those kinds of endeavors weren't encouraged even when I was in high school. The club adviser got most of the members from his classroom--if you weren't in one of his classes you might not even known the club existed.


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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/23/2012 10:42:34 AM   
CuriousFerret


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Joined: 10/16/2012
Status: offline 		Whether Americans are "anti-intellectual" or not really depends on where you go. I live in Raleigh, which is near the intellectual center of the state, and literacy is appreciated here. It's appreciated very much. However, I could drive a fairly short distance and be in an area where ignorance is practically a religion.

The irony is that those types call anyone who is fairly literate "a socialist," but they have the most quintessential Bolshevic attitude. They have contempt toward the intelligentsia, they think that the "working man" (proletariat) is the only worthwhile member of society, and they see anything that is too cultural or "artsy-fartsy" as a frivolous waste of time that corrupts the mind.

But the US is not the only part of the world where ignorance is treated as a religion in some places.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/23/2012 7:24:49 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
That is why your ill-defined notion of some grand consensus lead by intellectuals is utopian nonsense.

STOP FUCKING LYING ABOUT MY POSITION.

Seriously enough with your god damn philosopher-king lies.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/23/2012 7:26:44 PM   
jennacide


Posts: 8
Joined: 10/8/2012
Status: offline 		Why are intellectuals anti-Amurken?

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 273
RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/23/2012 8:08:46 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
That is why your ill-defined notion of some grand consensus lead by intellectuals is utopian nonsense.

STOP FUCKING LYING ABOUT MY POSITION.

Seriously enough with your god damn philosopher-king lies.

Getting a bit testy there.
So, you have a position?
One you can state clearly?
One that makes sense given the hard realities of political life?
C'mon. Really?
Listening.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 274
RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/23/2012 8:53:19 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Leading a country with the size and complexity that we have requires someone smart.

Agreed! But it bears remembering, I think, that "smart" comes in many stripes and that Presidents need a mix of learning skills. Justice Holmes famously described FDR as having a second-class intellect but a first-class temperament. FDR's temperament included, I suspect, keen emotional intelligence and an ability to draw the best out of people. Whatever its ingredients, FDR's intellect-temperament combo got us through the Depression and a world war.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 275
RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/24/2012 4:58:59 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Leading a country with the size and complexity that we have requires someone smart.

Agreed! But it bears remembering, I think, that "smart" comes in many stripes and that Presidents need a mix of learning skills. Justice Holmes famously described FDR as having a second-class intellect but a first-class temperament. FDR's temperament included, I suspect, keen emotional intelligence and an ability to draw the best out of people. Whatever its ingredients, FDR's intellect-temperament combo got us through the Depression and a world war.

Herbert Hoover and Jimmy Carter were betrayed by their intellect when confronted with disaster. Each wanted the "right" answer when what was needed was a fast response.

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/24/2012 5:11:34 AM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
That is why your ill-defined notion of some grand consensus lead by intellectuals is utopian nonsense.

STOP FUCKING LYING ABOUT MY POSITION.

Seriously enough with your god damn philosopher-king lies.

Getting a bit testy there.
So, you have a position?
One you can state clearly?
One that makes sense given the hard realities of political life?
C'mon. Really?
Listening.

Now now, Vincent, it isn't nice to impair his enjoyment of the forums. If you're not more careful, you'll end up joining me and the other CM "liars" on his Hide list.

K.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 277
RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/24/2012 6:36:40 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
That is why your ill-defined notion of some grand consensus lead by intellectuals is utopian nonsense.

STOP FUCKING LYING ABOUT MY POSITION.

Seriously enough with your god damn philosopher-king lies.

Getting a bit testy there.
So, you have a position?
One you can state clearly?
One that makes sense given the hard realities of political life?
C'mon. Really?
Listening.

Now now, Vincent, it isn't nice to impair his enjoyment of the forums. If you're not more careful, you'll end up joining me and the other CM "liars" on his Hide list.

K.

Thank you, K. I will try to restrain myself. This was the third or fourth time he has hurled the LYING thunderbolt at me. LOL!

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/25/2012 4:38:07 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Getting a bit testy there.

Yes I am. I've had to explain to you that it's intellectually dishonest to make up a position and attribute it to me how many times now?

Even Mr. Rogers would be giving you the finger and ranting about asshatery at this point.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 279
RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/25/2012 4:53:36 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
So, you have a position?
One you can state clearly?
One that makes sense given the hard realities of political life?
C'mon. Really?
Listening.

I'll explain it again like I have half a dozen times already. Here it is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I think our elected officials should have the intellectual capacity to understand the laws they are passing


That's it, that's my position.

It doesn't involve philosopher-kings.
It doesn't involve everyone agreeing with me.
It doesn't involve a utopia.
It doesn't involve an end to partisan politics.

All I'm looking for is that our country have decision makers who haven't attrified their minds through a hatred of thinking and education.

I've explained my plan to accomplish my desire a couple times now here it is again:

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Vocal groups in this country have a say disproportional to their size. As such I propose that those of us who consider education and intelligence to be essential attributes for our elected officials should raise awareness. That we should talk about this on the internet and in our communities. Maybe get a bumper sticker or wear a pin when you go vote.


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I'm hopeful that there are still a significant number of Americans in the republican party that are capable of thinking. That if we can raise awareness about these special interest groups who want to put an end to thinking and how they are influencing policy we can get the party to pull away from the fringe or the moderates to pull away from the party.





(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 280
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