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Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:04:31 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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Status: offline 		This was prompted by subspaceseven's thread on Rick Santorum http://www.collarchat.com/m_4242162/tm.htm

Why is it that Americans, as a group, are anti-intellectual? It is one of the few places in the world where I have lived and worked where being smart means you are looked down on, bullied, etc. Smart people are generally viewed with suspicion and hatred, rather than admired. It has led to a society that elevates the average, and wants their leadership to resemble them. Utterly bizarre. If you were a company in whatever industry would you pick the most average person in the company to run it, or do you pick someone who is talented. And why, as Americans, so we feel talent is completely divorced from being smart? And given the complexity of the global economy and the global geo-political situation, why is it that we think politicians don't need to be smart to be effective in their roles?

In many ways the American public gets the government it deserves. And it is sad.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:10:13 PM   
pyschosubmission


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Status: offline 		I'm not an American but

I don't think Americans are any more anti-intellectual than any other country, certainly here in Britain we have our fair share of talentless celebrities, famous purely for being famous. However I'd say the reason it may seem America is against intellectual debate is more to do with the fact that it's mainly American TV and film that is seen throughout the world. After all that's where the money is.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:13:31 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pyschosubmission

I'm not an American but

I don't think Americans are any more anti-intellectual than any other country, certainly here in Britain we have our fair share of talentless celebrities, famous purely for being famous. However I'd say the reason it may seem America is against intellectual debate is more to do with the fact that it's mainly American TV and film that is seen throughout the world. After all that's where the money is.


It could be that the UK is the same, but I am speaking as a born and bred American. The culture here is incredibly anti-intellectual. I am NOT drawing conclusions based on TV and film, but the reality of my existence. I am comparing my existence here to the more limited work experiences that I have had in Europe and Asia, primarily, where people seem much less anti-intellectual. In places like France, Japan, India, Italy, etc. it is considered a good thing to be smart. That's not the case here.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:14:13 PM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		It's the repubs fault.....all of it!

KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, I blame our addiction to instant gratification and shit television. We want to be entertained, not educated. We don't care about facts, just fun.

And this is why I don't watch most of the regular television programming that so many US citizen find interesting. I don't buy or read, most of the publications that so many US citizens find interesting. I enjoy learning and don't care that so many people accuse me of forgetting where I came from, because I choose to actually USE my brain and learn shit.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:19:55 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

It's the repubs fault.....all of it!

KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, I blame our addiction to instant gratification and shit television. We want to be entertained, not educated. We don't care about facts, just fun.

And this is why I don't watch most of the regular television programming that so many US citizen find interesting. I don't buy or read, most of the publications that so many US citizens find interesting. I enjoy learning and don't care that so many people accuse me of forgetting where I came from, because I choose to actually USE my brain and learn shit.


LaT, thanks for this. The bolded part of your statement is exactly the kind of attitude that I feel smart people in this country face. And ultimately, as a society, I think it really hurts us. Some people like you are able to not care and just do your own thing. But many people succumb to feeling like they must, in fact, dumb themselves down in order to fit in.

And this applies to our leadership choices - many Americans want leaders that remind them of themselves - i.e., leaders who fit in. But why do we need to aim for average when we are trying to fill leadership spots. I know I'm kvetching about something that is not likely to change here.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:22:09 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Status: offline 		Oh good heavens, yes!! Being educated at all is frowned upon, though at the same time advancing in a career is impossible without advanced degrees! My education is the last thing I mention about myself! Knowing things is only okay when it involves winning at trivia.

It seems to me that it goes back to the roots of our class system--and we do have a class system here in the States, don't let anyone try to tell you otherwise. Our underclasses were traditionally not ALLOWED education, because knowledge is power, right? And then wave after wave of uneducated immigrants, speaking other languages, again treated as less-than no matter what their background. The educated are a threat, they have powers that the masses don't have, so they are to be feared and despised. That's a facile explanation, but I do think it's at the heart of the "do it yourself" pioneer spirit, that this country was formed not by the educated, but by the labourers, and the explorers.

I'm sure there have been a few theses written on this topic.



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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:28:47 PM   
pyschosubmission


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

this country was formed not by the educated, but by the labourers, and the explorers.



Interesting point, though I do find the USA (and Canada as well) as really interesting countries, both being relatively speaking new and created due to immigration

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:31:04 PM   
Marc2b


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Status: offline 		I disagree that the culture as a whole is anti-intellectual. It is cultural conservatives around the world that are so. It arises from the fact that a bunch of people with collage degrees are telling them things that go against what they were raised to believe in.

They "know" that the world was created six thousand years ago but other people with collage degrees are telling them that it is four and a half billion years old.

They "know" that homosexuality is a choice and a sin but people with collage degrees are telling them that it is neither.

They "know" a great many things that people with collage degrees are disagreeing with.

When people like Rick Santorum deride "smart" people, they are in fact not conceding that the opposition is smart... it is a wink and nod that we who are in the "know" are actually the smart ones.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 10/3/2012 12:32:26 PM >

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:31:15 PM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		I understand what you are saying.

All I can reply with is a quote (that is credited to Ghandi but that seems to be questionable..) I do my level best to try and live by........"Be the change you wish to see in the world."

I cannot change others. It is very probable I cannot even change other's perception of me. The only thing I have any influence over is ME. My hope is that me being the best me I can be, as I envision that, will provide an example to others. OR, at the very least, empower them to be less afraid to be themselves, by seeing me unafraid to be me.

I hope that makes some sense. It does in my head but less so when I try to read and rewrite it.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:34:06 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pyschosubmission


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

this country was formed not by the educated, but by the labourers, and the explorers.



Interesting point, though I do find the USA (and Canada as well) as really interesting countries, both being relatively speaking new and created due to immigration

LadyHib, I agree that this is part of it, but there must be more. I say this because France also had a revolution and they got rid of their aristocracy and their class system, but they still really value intelligence, education, and what I would call cultural sophistication. So it is not just that we are a country of laborers - it is that, combined with other things - what??

Is it that so much of our population is from a working class immigrant and slave pool? The founding fathers were not working class, but the country was built on the backs of the working class (either freely, or by force). And in creating a new country did we abandon intellectualism as well? i.e., did intellectualism become associated with the Old World, and therefore, suspect?

Are Canada and Australia the same (I'm trying to think of the other relatively new countries that are mostly immigrant based)??

< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 10/3/2012 12:36:14 PM >

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:36:27 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Are Canada and Australia the same (I'm trying to think of the other relatively new countries that are mostly immigrant based)??


Don't forget South America.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:45:22 PM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		I just had a thought and I may be wayyyyyyy off base.

Here in the US it is difficult for the average kid to get an education beyond grade 12. For many reasons, depending upon the individual. If you are poor, and not a super student, you have to really REALLY WANT a higher education and really fight to get it. They don't make it easy for sure. I know a lot of people with over $100,000.00 of debt because of student loans. It is considered by most people I know, either the priviledge of the wealthy, or really smart.

Priviledge creates envy. The have nots envy, then hate simply because of their envy. They distrust anyone that has what they perceive themselves as not being able to have. To boost their own sense of self, they deride that which they envy and hate. They see it as a priviledge that was kept from them, and hate those that got it. Here, higher education is synonymous with money. Something everyone wants because of what they perceive it as being. Something those that are 'better' have, or at the least, those that believe they are better.

It's a reverse prejudice.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 10/3/2012 12:46:36 PM >

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:49:04 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Knowledge is power. They knew this in Rome over 1000 years ago. If one small group is educated and everyone else is kept ignorant, the small group can rule without too much trouble. When the proles become educated, they become restive. The elites don't like restive proles. They want happy, ignorant proles that will toil for little or nothing.

With the printing press, Gutenberg opened a whole new world. Within a few generations, knowledge became more common and there were revolutions.
We are only beginning to see what the internet can do as it has only been generally available as a household fixture for about a generation. Time will tell as far as how violent the revolutions are.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:49:44 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Status: offline 		Isn't it interesting that so many of our more recent Asian immigrants are VERY focused on education, and are both a threat and an object of derisive stereotypes? Who hasn't heard of the Asian kid who's good at math? But it's only things like math and science, right? Very little of that "liberal arts" education. Why get an education at all if it's not going to add up to a bigger paycheck? Why take all those "filler classes" like history and literature? Who's going to need THAT stuff ever?

Way back when when I was teaching (late 80's) there was this little fad called "cultural literacy", and it discussed all the things that we Baby Boomers knew and grew up with, and the younger generation had no idea of. Things like fairy tales, and nursery rhymes, and basic literature and history. It was sad and alarming. I dared speak up during one of my master's classes and say that we were doing our kids a disservice if we graduated them without their knowing how to read, write, balance a checkbook, and fill out a job application. I was roundly mocked and called a DINOSAUR. Because it was all about higher order thinking skills in those days. So, the school system gets dumbed down to match the lowest common denominator, advanced classes get pushed aside for all but the very smart mathematically, and more kids can get you your fries but not make correct change without the cash register telling them what to give you.

I think that the openness to religion is one of the things that has poisoned critical thought here. I am not just saying that as an atheist, either. In what other Western country is religious thought accepted as FACT to the degree it is here in the States? Would there have been a Scopes trial in Europe? I don't think so. But here, there are schools that teach creationism. And that's okay, because America.





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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:50:41 PM   
madramblings


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Status: offline 		That is so strange, for I have found that to be true of every other country, as well! No one likes someone who is smarter than they are. But, still and all, Bill G. and Mark Z. seem to have done alright for themselves.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:52:37 PM   
RemoteUser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I understand what you are saying.

All I can reply with is a quote (that is credited to Ghandi but that seems to be questionable..) I do my level best to try and live by........"Be the change you wish to see in the world."


In case you're interested.


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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:53:35 PM   
pyschosubmission


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

If you are poor, and not a super student, you have to really REALLY WANT a higher education and really fight to get it. They don't make it easy for sure. I know a lot of people with over $100,000.00 of debt because of student loans.


What the fuck!?!?

The Scottish Government pays the tuition costs for all Scottish students, on top of that if you're from a low income family they will give you a grant to help with the living costs. The point being education for all

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 12:57:36 PM   
RemoteUser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pyschosubmission

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

If you are poor, and not a super student, you have to really REALLY WANT a higher education and really fight to get it. They don't make it easy for sure. I know a lot of people with over $100,000.00 of debt because of student loans.


What the fuck!?!?

The Scottish Government pays the tuition costs for all Scottish students, on top of that if you're from a low income family they will give you a grant to help with the living costs. The point being education for all


It's the same or worse in Canada, LaT. It would be nice if we had that with the health system, pyscho, but then it would also be nice if we stopped electing businessmen with agendas.



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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 1:00:33 PM   
DomYngBlk


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Status: offline 		Generalization but think a lot of anti-intellectual stuff you hear here comes from more of the "Christian" public. Not unlike how Arab Mullahs keep their faithful dumbed down. The sheep are told what they need to know and that anything that is "new" is probably very bad.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 1:01:02 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Status: offline 		Oh, Psycho. You dear young man.

I graduated from high school in 1981. My parents busted their humps saving pretty much from the day I was born, because THEY WANTED ME TO GO TO COLLEGE. Which was not an thing everyone did, in 1981. I worked and paid for my first master's which I got in 1985. Second master's, worked and got in 1993 or so. ALL THREE of those degrees cost less than a standard undergraduate education now.

I simply cannot imagine how ordinary people can afford to go to school, let alone med school or law school. The financial aid system is a morass of complexity and redundancy. Some people get loans, some don't qualify for anything. But yes, unless you are at the pinnacle of test scores AND have the right skin colour/ethnicity, you won't get a scholarship. You may or may not get a loan which will follow you THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. (Don't get me started on THAT!) Commonest scenario, a person will have a degree, no job, and a lot of debt.

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