RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual?

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stealthmeister -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/3/2012 6:42:46 PM)
They are anti-intellectual because the ruling class like to keep the sheeple stupid. Why else would we have a tax exemption for religions? Why isn't tuition tax-deductible?

vincentML -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/3/2012 8:29:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stealthmeister They are anti-intellectual because the ruling class like to keep the sheeple stupid. Why else would we have a tax exemption for religions? Why isn't tuition tax-deductible? Because students normally do not pay taxes?

vincentML -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/3/2012 8:32:06 PM)
quote: Without in any way detracting from the contributions of immigrants (a group that includes my own ancestors), it's tricky, I think, to tease out whether their achievements reflect the influence of U.S. culture, their native cultures, both, or neither. Well, now you've thrown a wrench into the engine cuz we are mostly all immigrant descendents. [:D]

stealthmeister -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/3/2012 9:28:03 PM)
I don't know any holders of advanced degrees (except for a bunch of JDs who had no "need") who did not work while they were students. More importantly, if I go back to school to get, eg, an MCSE designation, the money I spend on that is not deductible unless I am already a "computer professional." VML, you sound slick but on reflection you are the nether end of an equine.

FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/3/2012 9:58:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse It's the repubs fault.....all of it! KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously, I blame our addiction to instant gratification and shit television. We want to be entertained, not educated. We don't care about facts, just fun. And this is why I don't watch most of the regular television programming that so many US citizen find interesting. I don't buy or read, most of the publications that so many US citizens find interesting. I enjoy learning and don't care that so many people accuse me of forgetting where I came from, because I choose to actually USE my brain and learn shit. I would tend to agree with much of this. I would simply add that over the decades of TV's ascension, there have been individuals who from within the socio-political arm of the media industry, that study and develop technique to manipulate the vast MIDDLE of their viewership. And contrary to what some may believe, it's not right and left. It's far more demographic and complicated than that. It has more to do with disposable income and the preservation of perceived corporate image. And many believe that over time that what has happened is that "Academia" is bad for the message. They're the ones who shoot down the BS Zeppelins. And over time, society has been influenced to view people who give emphasis to intellectual pursuits (like reading non-fiction, or classics), as "part of what's wrong with the world". is it the only cause? Not hardly. But it gives people who either don't have have support for intellectual development around them as they grow, a safe harbor to avoid the actual work of aiming for and reaching those milestones in their lives. I would stress though that this is merely an opinion I have developed through life experience and pursuing a degree in Political Science and Economics. I also confess that I am one of those crazy people who actually believed Edgar Mitchell when he says he walked on the moon. So take what I am saying with a grain of salt. Now I have to go sleep. I have been awake about 60 of the last 72 hours teaching my analysis team to hate me for being "a slave driver" as one of the Seniors on the team expressed at dinner tonight. Sweet dreams everyone!

atursvcMaam -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/3/2012 10:04:48 PM)
Good question, too bad I lack the intellectual capacity to offer an erudite expanation of this country's plethora of shortcomings, although I am wise enough to realize this is a no win question, based on an unrealistic premise.

Politesub53 -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 3:25:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML "Teachers! Leave them kids alone! All in all it's just another brick in the wall. All in all you're just another brick in the wall. We don't need no education . . . Never one of my favourite Pink Floyd sentiments, I have to say. If you don`t eat yer meat, you can`t have no pudding. [8D]

GotSteel -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 3:55:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub People seem to forget the so called religious extremist right is a very small portion of the population where the religious are large but varied in its political beliefs. Sure not all of the fundamentalists vote R. However, as a special interest group the republican party courts them like there's no tomorrow. It's so bad that the Texas GOP actually came out against critical thinking.

tweakabelle -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 4:01:47 AM)
As an academic in a country (Australia) where anti-intellectualism is a national hobby, may I offer a few observations based on personal experience? Firstly, anti-intellectualism seems to me to be primarily a Western phenomenon. In Japan or China, for example, professorships are prized, the most prestigious positions available. Knowledge is treasured and those who create, accumulate and propagate it enjoy an exalted social status. In the West, anti-intellectualism seems to me to be most pronounced in English speaking countries. Fucktoyprincess' observation that it is less readily observed in Continental countries seems spot on to me. It might be relevant that English is, AFAIK, the only language where accents can be class-based as well as regional. One's proficiency in English also has a huge class dimension. From the Enlightenment on, intellectuals have been distrusted politically by the powers that be. Their radicalism challenged existing orders in religion, in sciences and especially in politics. This made intellectuals easy targets for demonisation, something that intellectuals themselves played into by their chronic inability to communicate their ideas in easily-understood sound grabs (this post might be a case in point). Communicating complex ideas simply and accurately is an Art. There are a few local factors that play into our national hobby too - the wonderful climate here facilitates an outdoor physical climate, as does the history of 'taming' a 'raw' undeveloped harsh land, which values physical masculine actions over thought. A can-do culture is preferred. It's far easier to develop sporting prowess than intellectual traditions of excellence. A history of immigration from multiple cultures with its associated communication difficulties makes deters popular consumption of complex ideas. Most Australians can tell you who our best swimmer is, but but far fewer could name our Nobel Prize winner in Literature let alone claim to have read him. It seems to me that all these factors play into the anti-intellectual stream in our life here.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 5:23:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: stealthmeister They are anti-intellectual because the ruling class like to keep the sheeple stupid. Why else would we have a tax exemption for religions? Why isn't tuition tax-deductible? Because students normally do not pay taxes? Quite untrue.I not only paid taxes while I was in college and grad school but while I was in grad school, my big $600/month stipend that came with the graduate fellowship became taxable in the midst of the biggest (to that date) tax cut for corporations and the wealthy. It was called "Trickle down economics" I seem to recall.

LaTigresse -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 7:58:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle As an academic in a country (Australia) where anti-intellectualism is a national hobby, may I offer a few observations based on personal experience? Firstly, anti-intellectualism seems to me to be primarily a Western phenomenon. In Japan or China, for example, professorships are prized, the most prestigious positions available. Knowledge is treasured and those who create, accumulate and propagate it enjoy an exalted social status. In the West, anti-intellectualism seems to me to be most pronounced in English speaking countries. Fucktoyprincess' observation that it is less readily observed in Continental countries seems spot on to me. It might be relevant that English is, AFAIK, the only language where accents can be class-based as well as regional. One's proficiency in English also has a huge class dimension. From the Enlightenment on, intellectuals have been distrusted politically by the powers that be. Their radicalism challenged existing orders in religion, in sciences and especially in politics. This made intellectuals easy targets for demonisation, something that intellectuals themselves played into by their chronic inability to communicate their ideas in easily-understood sound grabs (this post might be a case in point). Communicating complex ideas simply and accurately is an Art. There are a few local factors that play into our national hobby too - the wonderful climate here facilitates an outdoor physical climate, as does the history of 'taming' a 'raw' undeveloped harsh land, which values physical masculine actions over thought. A can-do culture is preferred. It's far easier to develop sporting prowess than intellectual traditions of excellence. A history of immigration from multiple cultures with its associated communication difficulties makes deters popular consumption of complex ideas. Most Australians can tell you who our best swimmer is, but but far fewer could name our Nobel Prize winner in Literature let alone claim to have read him. It seems to me that all these factors play into the anti-intellectual stream in our life here. Your post explains the...mindset....of some of the posters that have come and gone here, from that locale.

vincentML -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 8:07:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: stealthmeister They are anti-intellectual because the ruling class like to keep the sheeple stupid. Why else would we have a tax exemption for religions? Why isn't tuition tax-deductible? Because students normally do not pay taxes? Quite untrue.I not only paid taxes while I was in college and grad school but while I was in grad school, my big $600/month stipend that came with the graduate fellowship became taxable in the midst of the biggest (to that date) tax cut for corporations and the wealthy. It was called "Trickle down economics" I seem to recall. So, Hill, you paid taxes on your tuition and you want your tuition to be tax deductable? Do you notice any contradiction in your position? My point is that most resident students are probably not working and so have no need for deductions. May not be true of commuters, night students, community college students, etc. But, how many kids living in a dorm have jobs that earn enough wages to be taxable? And if there were an educational tax deduction on work wages it would have minimal benefit in those low tax brackets, doncha think?

Hillwilliam -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 8:14:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Quite untrue.I not only paid taxes while I was in college and grad school but while I was in grad school, my big $600/month stipend that came with the graduate fellowship became taxable in the midst of the biggest (to that date) tax cut for corporations and the wealthy. It was called "Trickle down economics" I seem to recall. So, Hill, you paid taxes on your tuition and you want your tuition to be tax deductable? Do you notice any contradiction in your position? My point is that most resident students are probably not working and so have no need for deductions. May not be true of commuters, night students, community college students, etc. But, how many kids living in a dorm have jobs that earn enough wages to be taxable? And if there were an educational tax deduction on work wages it would have minimal benefit in those low tax brackets, doncha think? ETA sorry bout the quotes being fucked up. There should be a big line here. That's not what I said at all. I didn't pay tuition when in grad school as I had a fellowship. That was taxable. Now if my tuition assistance was taxable, why shouldn't someone who pays tuition get a tax break? The government of the time decided to have their cake and eat it too. tuition one way is taxable but the other way, it isnt a deduction. My other part was a snark against Reagan's trickle down theory. Let's give a big break to those who live in multi million dollar mansions and raise taxes on a student who rents a shack for $300/month (it really was a shack) and has to ride a bicycle to school because he cant afford a car.

Owner59 -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 8:48:28 AM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jLVX0hklsY Santorum: Obama "A Snob" For Wanting Everyone To Go To College Listen to the crowd eat it up.......

atursvcMaam -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 9:03:12 AM)
actually "I'm smarter than you so you should listen to me" Or "You're not smart enough for me" is as much a bullying tactic as "I am stronger so you are mine" Tough guy with a doctorate, are ya? Learn to communicate with people at all levels and I will be far more impressed.

vincentML -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 11:34:22 AM)
quote: That's not what I said at all. I didn't pay tuition when in grad school as I had a fellowship. That was taxable. Now if my tuition assistance was taxable, why shouldn't someone who pays tuition get a tax break? The government of the time decided to have their cake and eat it too. tuition one way is taxable but the other way, it isnt a deduction. I totally sympathize with you, Hill. My point however is a student cannot claim a tuition deduction if she is not working cuz she has no income. And btw, I had this grad student issue with the IRS way back in the day when may first wife [may she rot in hell] had a teaching assistantship. I sneaked into Nova Law Library and found an obscure tax court case that held where a stipend was given in a program that REQUIRED a teaching or research assistantship, no tax liability existed. The local IRS guy bought it when I visited him. Or maybe he just couldn't be arsed. Sometimes if you catch them on a busy day . . . yanno, you get lucky.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 11:43:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: That's not what I said at all. I didn't pay tuition when in grad school as I had a fellowship. That was taxable. Now if my tuition assistance was taxable, why shouldn't someone who pays tuition get a tax break? The government of the time decided to have their cake and eat it too. tuition one way is taxable but the other way, it isnt a deduction. I totally sympathize with you, Hill. My point however is a student cannot claim a tuition deduction if she is not working cuz she has no income. And btw, I had this grad student issue with the IRS way back in the day when may first wife [may she rot in hell] had a teaching assistantship. I sneaked into Nova Law Library and found an obscure tax court case that held where a stipend was given in a program that REQUIRED a teaching or research assistantship, no tax liability existed. The local IRS guy bought it when I visited him. Or maybe he just couldn't be arsed. Sometimes if you catch them on a busy day . . . yanno, you get lucky. I worked all 4 years of undergrad and all 3 years of grad school. I came thru the whole thing with only about 10-15K of student loan debt and my undergrad was at a pvt school.

GotSteel -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 12:18:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam actually "I'm smarter than you so you should listen to me" Or "You're not smart enough for me" is as much a bullying tactic as "I am stronger so you are mine" Tough guy with a doctorate, are ya? Learn to communicate with people at all levels and I will be far more impressed. In the case you're talking about Santorum should shut up and listen to the scientific community which is not only smarter than him but vastly more informed about science than he is.

Fightdirecto -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 1:48:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam actually "I'm smarter than you so you should listen to me" Or "You're not smart enough for me" is as much a bullying tactic as "I am stronger so you are mine" Tough guy with a doctorate, are ya? Learn to communicate with people at all levels and I will be far more impressed. Historically, the more common argument/bullying tactic has been: "I work for a living. I build things/I grow food on my farm/I make things that people need/etc. All you do is read books and write books - you don't create anything worthwhile." Or as an Army Sergeant once told me when he saw me reading a paperback edition of Charles Dickens' "David Copperfield": "All that reading is bad for you. Knowledge just makes people unhappy with their place in life".

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 2:48:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: and it is true that the Forrest Gump character is a recurring one in American media I'm having trouble thinking of other examples. Any that come to mind? I was thinking along the lines of characters like Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. And while not entirely Gumpian the following characters seem to me to fall in the same vein (either by representing everyman, or explicitly representing rebellion against intellectualism) Tom Sawyer, Huck Finn, Holden Caulfield. I am sure there are more.

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