RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (Full Version)

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fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 2:55:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

Smart people are generally viewed with suspicion and hatred, rather than admired. It has led to a society that elevates the average, and wants their leadership to resemble them. Utterly bizarre.


Yes, a large swath of this country regarded Sarah Palin as a rock star and a hero. According to them, Katie Couric maligned her. The most effective American leaders are able to connect with this segment of the US population. Ronald Reagan excelled in this department because he over simplified everything and painted all his pictures in black and white. Reaganites probably thought his second term Alzheimer's symptoms were endearing.

Clinton also connected with the average Americans because he came from a broken home and had such human foibles to go with his razor sharp intellect and photographic memory.

I think Romney is a bit of a space alien to the Republican, red-state base because he is smart and wealthy. He isn't a straight-forward gay-immigrant hating, gun-toting, uber-patriot --- he's more a technocratic businessman who is awkward before crowds and uncomfortable answering questions.


Yes, this notion of connecting has become too important, in my mind. Again, if one is choosing the CEO of a company, how important exactly is it for him to be able to "connect" with the mid-level and lower-level employees? Does the CEO of McDonalds need to "connect" with the person working behind the counter? Isn't it more important for that person to make the right decisions as CEO than be able to "hang out" with McDonald's staff?

As long as this notion of connectedness remains, we will continue to see people like Sarah Palin enter the political landscape. [:'(]




Kirata -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 2:55:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Why is it that Americans, as a group, are anti-intellectual?

Why is it that some people continue to spew stereotypes?

K.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 3:01:50 PM)

FR

FMRFGOPGAL, Yes media is definitely a factor as in order to stay relevant they must appeal to the masses.

tweakabelle - yes, you get it, and thanks for pointing out the English language and class connection. Will have to ponder that one more. Much of continental Europe also had a class system - so I suppose the question is why that hasn't had the same impact. France is obvious, but what about other countries? Maybe you have more thoughts you can share.

To all of those hung up on the Nobel Prize thing - I'm sorry but you don't understand what the rest of us are discussing. Your point is a distinct point, but in no way diminishes the thesis being outlined here.





cloudboy -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 3:23:20 PM)


Right, the politician lowers himself to get the idiot vote as opposed to challenging idiots to wise up. In a true democracy anyone can be elected President, its one of the risks you take.




Aswad -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 4:26:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

It is one of the few places in the world where I have lived and worked where being smart means you are looked down on, bullied, etc.


Please do not come to Norway. We will reset and recalibrate your scale.

quote:

Smart people are generally viewed with suspicion and hatred, rather than admired.


Isn't that normal everywhere?

Admiration is reserved for beauty (women), strength (men) and status (both).

Mobbing, incidentally, has one consistent predictor: being objectively superior in some regard to the mob.

quote:

It has led to a society that elevates the average, and wants their leadership to resemble them.


Looking at the US from up here, it seems to be a society that worships the cream of the crop and wants leadership that has every quality in the book in abundance, while sneering at the merely good, pissing on the average and curb stomping everything below the average. It may be that this is not the impression from where you lived before going to the US, in which case I think it might be good for me to move to wherever you were before.

quote:

And why, as Americans, so we feel talent is completely divorced from being smart?


Where I'm from, talent is considered a matter of the luck of the draw, and skill is seen much the same. It comes from above by some mystic process, rather than by practice, discipline, attention to quality and intelligent refinement of methodology. And you better not get it in your head that putting in a hundred thousand hours of practice means you actually know something, let alone that the result could be implied to be anything other than your good fortune to be gifted with such an outcome.

I guess it comes down to the unfairness of it. By applying my mind, I have been able to learn more fields than anyone I know that is less intelligent. I can figure out what I need to do to get better at something, even if that something has nothing to do with my mind. If I care to become a football player, I can apply my mind to improving my body, my coordination, my reflexes and so forth, and I can bring that mind with me onto the playing field to handle strategy at a level the coach (is that the word?) may well be unable to follow, while tracking the locations of every member of both teams, their capabilities and their behavior patterns.

«A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.»
- Robert A. Heinlein


One of the things Heinlein is implying, which I don't agree with, is that intelligence is the measurable quantity that we may call humanity or human potential. Another thing he's implying, which I do agree with, is that intelligence allows you to take on more tasks than a less intelligent being can.

It's polite to subscribe to the idea that there's different kinds of intelligence. I think that's a partial truth only. There's different skillsets, and people have a different degree of talent for each skillset, but intelligence allows you to acquire and improve any skillset that's not outside your reach by virtue of actual brain damage, congenital or not. That is, someone with high intellectual capacity and a lower social or emotional capacity can decide to attain a higher social or emotional capacity and succeed at it, regardless of whether they started low or high to begin with. Because at a certain level of intelligence, you start to become able to grasp what your mind is doing, and able to grasp what we know about the human mind, and able to synthesize from this a method that will take you from what you are to what you want to be.

Character, of course, will determine what use you actually choose to put such intellect to. And opportunity determines what choices are readily available without first choosing to change the available options. You can't just think your way out of anything, or into anything (though I've noticed I can probably think my way into some women's pants, lol), but intellect is the great multiplier. In life, you add up everything you have (including circumstance), and then you multiply it by intelligence. Doubling anything else adds just a little bit. Doubling intelligence will double the total.

That's not fair in the sense of being linearly additive or equally available to anyone or any other popular definition of fairness.

And, of course, if you can't see what's going on, it'll seem like luck or whatever, not intellect or effort.

People tend to admire only what they can understand, which is often very little.

quote:

And given the complexity of the global economy and the global geo-political situation, why is it that we think politicians don't need to be smart to be effective in their roles?


For programming savvy people and polymaths, I will point out that Paul Graham has a great quote on this using programming languages to illustrate.

For the rest:

People can't distinguish between the quality of candidates that are of higher merit than themselves, because they aren't aware of those complexities at all. This is one of many significant drawbacks with the democratic model, because it is the fat tail of the bell curve which can do great things, and it is the center of the bell curve that will decide which things are done and who gets to do them, or- accurately- decide who decides those things.

As a rule, the people near the center of the bell curve have zero- I repeat, zero- ability to determine if someone is near the extreme far end of the fat tail, or just slightly off-center. I readily recognize that there are people who are whole orders of magnitude smarter than me. But I've rarely encountered people that are substantially less smart than me and still able to distinguish between my intellect and the intellect of those I consider my superiors in that department. And according to every bit of psychometry I've been through, even in my current state- which is such that I keep thinking "this is what dementia must be like"- I significantly exceed the average, so anyone average will probably be unable to make the distinction I mention.

Most of the time, average people up here fall into two groups when it comes to how they see my intellect: they either worship me as an unknowable, bright star they cannot touch, or revile me as an intolerable, pompous ass that thinks he's better than them (although that, ironically enough, is usually a projection of their own thoughts, and not something I actually think, although I'll admit this particular post has been pointed and rather pompous). I see no reason to expect this to be any different anywhere along the spectrum.

For everyone here that can see that I'm merely above average smart, it should be clear that no democratic process will ever lead to the best leaders being chosen, except by chance. Its role is to damp out impulses, to deaden and control, so that one can accomplish a degree of stability that is conducive to being a happy cog in the machine without the burden of chaos and surprise. To make the average, rather than beating it at the risk of falling short. And, of course, a direct implication is that only improving the population as a whole will substantially change the world for the better without violating every basic value, ideal and idea underlying democracy as a concept.

I'm not a genious. Someone out there is, though. And you can bet s/he won't be your head of state. Ever.

quote:

In many ways the American public gets the government it deserves. And it is sad.


The average gets what the average deserves. That's not sad.

What's sad is the rest of us get stuck with it, too.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

P.S.: The upshot is the rest of us get to reap the fruits of the labors of the numerous averages, cumulative over human history.
P.P.S.: Please ignore the "before you came to the US" part, as I misunderstood, thinking you went there, rather than working abroad.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 5:21:43 PM)

Aswad, just to be clear, I was born and raised in the US. My professional life has taken me plenty of places for work, but I am American. And my perspective comes, absolutely 100% from my experiences growing up in this country and seeing what happens around me. This is neither speculative, nor coming from an "outsider's" perspective.

For another perspective on the importance of effort and practice relative to innate skill/IQ I encourage you to check out Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers. On the importance of sheer luck, I agree.

I am less concerned about whether people can identify others of intelligence. What concerns me is the Sarah Palin effect as someone else mentioned on this thread. Americans seem to actively seek out the average (below average?) and consider them suitable for public office. No one claims Palin is smart, and yet people think she would be a good leader (?)

I am also NOT suggesting that the smartest person would make the best leader, Plato's philosopher king notwithstanding. My point is simply why am I part of a culture that actively seeks out people who are not intellectual. If the debate were about who is smarter that would be a different thing; here the debate is about who is more like the common man, as if this somehow makes one better suited to lead or make good decisions on behalf of others (!?) It simply runs contrary to hundreds of years of philosophy and political theory.

As for whether people admire intelligence in any given individual, I don't know. It depends. In the US, we certainly have specific intelligent people who are admired. Thomas Jefferson is admired. Albert Einstein is admired. Steve Jobs is admired. But somehow this admiration for the odd individual here and there (of mostly dead people) does not translate into a culture which is pro-intellectual and certainly has not translated into the contemporary world of politics. I've seen some great discussion from many people on why the US (and perhaps other English speaking countries) are this way. Again, I can only speak about what I know. And for decades I have been in a culture where there is a strong culture of anti-intellectualism (again, perhaps the US was not always this way, but it certainly is now).

Again, I am not suggesting that Norway is vastly different. Throughout this thread I have been encouraging people to weigh in on where they think their country is on the spectrum. Perhaps, on the dimension explored in this thread, Norway is closer to the US than say France.





LadyHibiscus -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 5:26:34 PM)

I'm far more concerned that the candidates we're offered are actively *stupid* and that seems okay.

I wonder how many people think that the popular vote wins the election?




vincentML -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 5:58:10 PM)

quote:

I am less concerned about whether people can identify others of intelligence. What concerns me is the Sarah Palin effect as someone else mentioned on this thread. Americans seem to actively seek out the average (below average?) and consider them suitable for public office. No one claims Palin is smart, and yet people think she would be a good leader (?)

FTP~ i would suggest this seeking out of the average, the person like me, the one who understands my needs, who most closely indentifies with my concerns, is defenseable. Romney may be smart as a whip when it comes to leveraged buy-outs . . . but why would I want him to be my president if he does not understand my needs, if in fact, he is likely to be destructive of my lifestyle? I want someone who represents my class and that may preclude an isolated academician or an intellectual. Politics and governance in a democracy are quite messy and have been so historically. Surely, one cannot make the case that Adlai Stevenson would have been a better representative of the common man than Harry Truman because Adlai was an intellectual and Harry just a Tom Sawyer boy.




Aswad -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 6:01:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Aswad, just to be clear, I was born and raised in the US.


Yes, I got that, about three minutes after posting. Mea culpa.

quote:

I am less concerned about whether people can identify others of intelligence.


Ah, but this is one of the substrates of the Palin effect, I think.

That and identifying, which is important to most.

quote:

as if this somehow makes one better suited to lead or make good decisions on behalf of others


It does result in more representative decisions, which is- I guess- why we call it representation.

quote:

Perhaps, on the dimension explored in this thread, Norway is closer to the US than say France.


This matches my impression of those three, except for small pockets here and there.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




atursvcMaam -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 10:08:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam
actually "I'm smarter than you so you should listen to me" Or "You're not smart enough for me" is as much a bullying tactic as "I am stronger so you are mine" Tough guy with a doctorate, are ya? Learn to communicate with people at all levels and I will be far more impressed.

Historically, the more common argument/bullying tactic has been:

"I work for a living. I build things/I grow food on my farm/I make things that people need/etc. All you do is read books and write books - you don't create anything worthwhile."

Or as an Army Sergeant once told me when he saw me reading a paperback edition of Charles Dickens' "David Copperfield": "All that reading is bad for you. Knowledge just makes people unhappy with their place in life".

Or as my dad used to say of his time in service, "all you college guys pick up papers, all you non college guys watch 'em you might learn something."
simple pedigree, Degree in linguistics, Minor in Communications. speak 5 languages, Menss level IQ and skills, and intellectuals bore me to tears. Work daily with folks of all levels of abilty, education, skills and capacities without getting concerned about much more than their health, well being, safety and comfort. Some of my "intellectual" acquaintances question how I allow myself to be demeaned in such endeavors, and it saddens me that they miss the beauty of humanity even in those who do not share or give equal value to their vast hordes of knowlege beyond their understanding.




littlewonder -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/4/2012 11:02:33 PM)

Americans don't like intellectual people because most of Americans are not intellectual and so they don't understand intellectuals. To them it's like trying to understand a foreign language. They have nothing in common and they feel lost and confused when trying to understand someone smart. They listen, nod their head and try to grasp onto some word they can figure out but they are clueless what they intellectual is speaking about. They just agree so they don't look stupid.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/5/2012 7:03:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I am less concerned about whether people can identify others of intelligence. What concerns me is the Sarah Palin effect as someone else mentioned on this thread. Americans seem to actively seek out the average (below average?) and consider them suitable for public office. No one claims Palin is smart, and yet people think she would be a good leader (?)

FTP~ i would suggest this seeking out of the average, the person like me, the one who understands my needs, who most closely indentifies with my concerns, is defenseable. Romney may be smart as a whip when it comes to leveraged buy-outs . . . but why would I want him to be my president if he does not understand my needs, if in fact, he is likely to be destructive of my lifestyle? I want someone who represents my class and that may preclude an isolated academician or an intellectual. Politics and governance in a democracy are quite messy and have been so historically. Surely, one cannot make the case that Adlai Stevenson would have been a better representative of the common man than Harry Truman because Adlai was an intellectual and Harry just a Tom Sawyer boy.

I understand the sentiment, but if you had an ailment would you want a doctor who had not been to medical school or who was not smart? Would you want to regularly drive across a bridge that had been made by someone average who had no engineering training? Would you want to eat food that an average person had deemed healthy/safe even though they lacked the skill set to make that determination?

So how exactly is it okay to have Congressman/executive leadership who are everymen when leadership of a geo-political economy as complex as ours necessarily requires intelligence? Again, I'm not saying the smartest person would make the best congressman, senator, president; but why this obsession with the average? How is this going to help us actually solve the issues we face?

When I have medical issues, I not only seek out a trained physician - I try to find a really capable one, at that. And depending on what you have, like cancer, a smarter oncologist is going to generally be the better call. I'm not going over to my neighbor's for a coffee klatch over how to cure a serious medical ailment, as much as I get along with my neighbor and admire them for who they are. I want an expert. Why do people not want expert decision makers about serious economic or political issues?? It helps for good decision making to actually understand some of what is being discussed. Don't get me started about leaders like George W. Bush.....[:-]




vincentML -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/5/2012 8:12:02 AM)

quote:

I understand the sentiment, but if you had an ailment would you want a doctor who had not been to medical school or who was not smart? Would you want to regularly drive across a bridge that had been made by someone average who had no engineering training? Would you want to eat food that an average person had deemed healthy/safe even though they lacked the skill set to make that determination?

The physician is a hands-on practioner, a skilled craftsman. The Congressman can hire informed advisors. Apples and oranges. I would rather have a Representative who has walked down my street. His role does not call for intellectualism.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/5/2012 8:17:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I understand the sentiment, but if you had an ailment would you want a doctor who had not been to medical school or who was not smart? Would you want to regularly drive across a bridge that had been made by someone average who had no engineering training? Would you want to eat food that an average person had deemed healthy/safe even though they lacked the skill set to make that determination?

The physician is a hands-on practioner, a skilled craftsman. The Congressman can hire informed advisors. Apples and oranges. I would rather have a Representative who has walked down my street. His role does not call for intellectualism.

The problem is that most representatives havent walked down your street. they go to college and major in Politics and public affairs or something similar. When they graduate, they hook up with some congressman's office as a staffer. If he's a good looking tall boy who photographs well, they party powers decide he should run for the state house and it goes from there. Most of our high ranking elected officials have NEVER had a "Real Job". They know nothing about how we live.
The classic example was Al Gore vs George W Bush. Both of those guys were raised from birth to be a politicial and nothing else.




popeye1250 -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/5/2012 11:11:37 AM)

Because someone who would embrace the term "intellectual" thinks they're better than everyone else?




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/5/2012 11:17:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I understand the sentiment, but if you had an ailment would you want a doctor who had not been to medical school or who was not smart? Would you want to regularly drive across a bridge that had been made by someone average who had no engineering training? Would you want to eat food that an average person had deemed healthy/safe even though they lacked the skill set to make that determination?

The physician is a hands-on practioner, a skilled craftsman. The Congressman can hire informed advisors. Apples and oranges. I would rather have a Representative who has walked down my street. His role does not call for intellectualism.


I really don't think it's apples and oranges at all. Congressman vote on policies that are critical to us as a nation. But these policies often have repercussions that they don't even understand (!) How can you possibly have faith in that kind of decision making. And then after the fact (for example after the crisis in the financial industry) they all scratch their heads and wonder why how they dealt with Glass-Steagall had to do with it. Maybe you aren't opposed to the kind of knucklehead decision making that goes on, but I sure am. [&:]




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/5/2012 11:19:46 AM)

FR

Again, for all Americans who feel being smart is not necessary for strong political decision-making - well then I guess we deserve the brilliant decision-making that has been going on the last several decades. Yikes. Ya know, some of us would just prefer smarter decision making. Call me crazy. [sm=2cents.gif]




GotSteel -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/5/2012 4:40:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
His role does not call for intellectualism.


[sm=jaw.gif]




TheBanshee -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/5/2012 5:17:03 PM)

I disagree that Americans are anti-intellectual.

When you want a surgeon, you are not asking for one that you can relate to, that understands your marital problems or the pain in the ass boss you have to deal with. You don't necessarily care if he's a good father to his kids. You want to know that he knows how to operate and can handle the surgery and that he's good - and you really want someone smart here.

When you want a guy to fix your brakes, you don't really care if he's read Shakespeare. You want to know that he knows how to make your car stop when you want it to stop. You want him to be smart - maybe he's only smart when it comes to cars even but its a smart maybe the surgeon doesn't have.

We may choose our friends based on people we relate to. If you are an intellectual, you will seek out the same. We choose careers based on our interests hopefully - and hopefully we choose one that pays the bills. Last I looked there were very few positions for philosophers so maybe Plato might be unemployed in today's economy.

We choose our leaders based on how we feel and hope they can understand what the problems are of "the people" and how they will fix it. We may strongly disagree on who that person is as far as the candidate. I sometimes think that the really smart people wouldn't want to run the country. I don't care which party you're on, you have to be somewhat arrogant and narcissistic to want to be a world leader. While there are a lot of perks, you're putting your life and the lives of your family at some risk and you're living in a fishbowl.

Anyone can be educated. We have libraries, the internet, thousands of books. If you are so inclined, and you are smart, you can learn whatever you want. The world doesn't owe everyone a college education. The USA is one of the few countries that will educate anyone regardless of learning disabilities and intellectual ability and physical disability and citizenship status (we will educate people here illegally). Most other countries do not even attempt this, and if you don't speak the language in many of them, too bad. Other countries don't cater to the diversity, we celebrate it. Our education system has its flaws for sure, but we make the effort and I love our country for that. You could be a 12 year old working in a factory 15 hours a day in some countries.

You may be unable to pay for college and not able to get a degree but you can become educated. Some of our greatest entrepreneurs have never gone to college or dropped out of college. But they were smart. We have "educated fools" and "professional students". There are a lot of people have degrees but they are not smart.




GotSteel -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/5/2012 6:18:46 PM)

I think the biggest cause of the "Sarah Palin effect" is a particular religious belief.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.gallup.com/poll/16519/us-evangelicals-how-many-walk-walk.aspx
Belief that the Bible is the "actual word of God" has, for the most part, declined since the mid-1980s. From 1976 to 1984, an average of 38% of Americans held this belief; since 1991, support has averaged 32%.


The belief that what the Bible says is true and reality are mutually exclusive.
We're talking about a huge group of Americans that must reject a good deal of scientific knowledge in order to maintain their beliefs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/22/opinion/polls/main965223.shtml
VIEWS ON EVOLUTION/CREATIONISM

God created humans in present form
51%
Humans evolved, God guided the process
30%
Humans evolved, God did not guide process
15%


They disproportionately vote Republican and as such the Republican party has been picking out candidates that share these peoples dislike of knowledge and thinking.




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