RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (Full Version)

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GotSteel -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/8/2012 5:53:33 PM)

Yeah examples do abound, there are an awful lot of "religious wing nuts" in this country.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/9/2012 5:51:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Replying to the thread in general -

What is defined as an "intellectual?" What is defined as "anti-intellectual."

A doctor or an attorney are highly college and university trained, are they thus "intellectuals?"

There is much talk here of Nobel prizes being proof of intellectualism, but many scientists have meager skills outside their chosen fields.

So then what are the definitions? They appear to be as vague as the definitions of "right" and "left" wing.

Is a working man who spends his time reading, discussing and considering various classics and humanitarian/philosophical works an intellectual while the nuclear physicist and professor who either never considers such works or considers them useless and a waste of time not an intellectual?

i am using "anti-intellectual" the way it and the term "elitist" are used in American politics. In other words, translate to smart. This is NOT about how much Voltaire someone has read, although, I would say Voltaire is a good read....[:D]




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/9/2012 5:53:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Also, how will an advisor explain the issues to a congressman so that he can make a good decision?

Sorry, I thought this thread was about anti-intellectualism not about the merits of electing STUPID.

No it's about how the anti-intellectualism in the US results in us electing stupid. I thought that was pretty clear in the original post. [8|]




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/9/2012 6:00:41 PM)

FR

From reading the whole thread, I feel that there are some things that would change this cultural orientation that we have. For starters, it would help to make higher education more affordable.




YN -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/10/2012 9:05:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Replying to the thread in general -

What is defined as an "intellectual?" What is defined as "anti-intellectual."

A doctor or an attorney are highly college and university trained, are they thus "intellectuals?"

There is much talk here of Nobel prizes being proof of intellectualism, but many scientists have meager skills outside their chosen fields.

So then what are the definitions? They appear to be as vague as the definitions of "right" and "left" wing.

Is a working man who spends his time reading, discussing and considering various classics and humanitarian/philosophical works an intellectual while the nuclear physicist and professor who either never considers such works or considers them useless and a waste of time not an intellectual?

i am using "anti-intellectual" the way it and the term "elitist" are used in American politics. In other words, translate to smart. This is NOT about how much Voltaire someone has read, although, I would say Voltaire is a good read....[:D]



So this is a question of USA politics and their definitions then? In all politics, white becomes black and night becomes day world wide.

We have a local saying, clever people hire intelligent people, for one can train his dog or a donkey to do many things, but it is the owner who profits.

But as you say, Anglo politics and political pundits are commandeering the term "intellectual" as a term for describing the highly formally educated pseudo-socialists as some sort of priesthood caste, while others are less and thus ignorant rurales because they do not belong to this this special group of Brahmins, at least from a google of the terms and who is doing the complaining and what they complain of in various articles.





GotSteel -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/10/2012 9:36:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
highly formally educated pseudo-socialists


What is a "highly formally educated pseudo-socialist" and how does one differ from oh say Bill O'Reilly?




YN -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/10/2012 10:37:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
highly formally educated pseudo-socialists


What is a "highly formally educated pseudo-socialist" and how does one differ from oh say Bill O'Reilly?


The type referred to as champagne socialists often in the Anglo press. Most are the children of the upper and upper middle class or offspring of members of the ruling class. They have priests and spiritual guides just like any other semi-religious movement. Many appear to imagine themselves and their class as benevolent dictators ruling over and adored by the downtrodden masses , once they secure their inheritances and hereditary positions, and magically create the perfect world they envision.

If you go to a place like Cuba or China where there are real socialists and communists in charge of things you see none of them, and the communists often refer to them as "useful idiots." A trade union communist, or leftist rural organizer makes far more sense and is more highly regarded (if one agrees with them or not) then some wealthy brats amusing themselves by pretending to be communists or socialists.

We have them here in small numbers, and they often are derided from all sides though perhaps one time in ten or twelve they actually do or support and endorse something useful.

But then I am seeing the tone of this set of assumptions regarding intellectualism and anti intellectualism as class based. George Bush could get through Harvard, none would accuse him as having any sort of intellectual supremacy, and most will admit it was only his ruling class Yankee family that got him there. Al Gore can be seen in a similar manner.

As for Mr. O'Reilly he actually differs little from the similar corporate pundits on the US "left" and functions as a paid cheerleader for the Catholic corporate traditionalists, and all these similar various talking heads appear to have the role to divide and conquer by sowing divisiveness in the working and the middle classes in the US.





FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/10/2012 11:28:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

FR

FMRFGOPGAL, Yes media is definitely a factor as in order to stay relevant they must appeal to the masses.


With all due respect, they're the vehicle, and a very important one. The culture of anti-intellectualism isn't spread by word of mouth, or notes slipped desk to desk in schools.




FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/10/2012 11:30:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Because someone who would embrace the term "intellectual" thinks they're better than everyone else?


Interesting theory... how about showing us a real life example.





Aswad -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/10/2012 3:44:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Just wondering if a per capita comparison is not fallacious. I have no data just a thought. Would it not be more valid to compare laureates per number of research scientists? Most of the population of any country is not really involved. The scoring may come out the same but I am curious about the methodology you are using.


Depends on what you're comparing. Of course, it's sort of beside the point, which was that the US isn't doing as good a job as Germany of staying at the forefront. The USA is doing well, but by virtue of numbers. Anyone can play the numbers game. It's not an optimal strategy for much of anything. Intellectualism, and anti the same, may influence the outcomes.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/10/2012 3:52:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Many of the world's military officers also are highly educated and fit the descriptions . . .


Some of them are intellectuals.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




GotSteel -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/10/2012 4:19:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
If you go to a place like Cuba or China where there are real socialists and communists in charge of things you see none of them, and the communists often refer to them as "useful idiots."


[sm=idea.gif] I must say I'm rather curious how you know what communists often refer to them as?

Mostly though I'd like to know what the difference between a communist and a socialist is?




Zonie63 -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/10/2012 5:33:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I'm not sure that Americans are necessarily anti-intellectual.


Part of the Texas GOP platform is keeping the next generation from learning to think for themselves. If that's not anti-intellectualism, I don't know what is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2012/07/01/texas-gop-platform/
The document (available here) has already made headlines with the portion that opposes the “teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills” and “critical thinking skills.” Although a partial retraction followed, this was in terms of the wording, not the general meaning. It appears that their fear is that these “focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.” Think about that for a moment. First off, do they really and truly believe that teachers and school boards across the State of Texas are designing curricula specifically aimed at training children to challenge their parents? Second, do you know which values and concepts are rejected in the absence of higher order and critical thinking? None! Therefore, depending on the time and place when we decide to stop challenging ideas and meekly accept what we are told, we might thereafter and forever be racists, sexists, communists, fascists, democrats, capitalists, Christians, Buddhists, Lutherans, geocentrists, pacifists, Wiccans, or whatever the prevailing views of that day were. Nothing would ever again be questioned. Were we to implement such a policy, we’d have to be certain that we had already identified the concepts and values that were “correct” (whatever that really means). Even a cursory reading of their platform makes it very clear that this is precisely what Texas Republicans believe and what those concepts and values are. This begs the question, who is really aiming to force their beliefs on our children, Texas schools or Texas Republicans? Personally, I prefer what I learned during my twelve years of Catholic school and eight years of public higher education: if a belief cannot stand up to scrutiny, then we shouldn’t believe it; and if it does, we will hold it all the more strongly for the very reason that it withstood our challenge.



I get what you're saying, and I agree with you for the most part. However, that's just the Texas GOP, not all of Texas, and certainly not all of America. I think America is kind of a mixed bag, some intellectual, some not so intellectual, and some decidedly anti-intellectual.

I guess the real question is why, as the OP was asking. One thing I've noticed about the political processes in various regions of the country: Some areas tend to be more reactive to what they regard as the centers of power in the country. So, it could be more a matter of political antagonism, but it's hard to say. Perhaps a bit of regional antagonism is at work as well. It might also be a matter of political pandering, to appeal to the more religious portion of their constituency.

Politically speaking, there might be a method to their madness. After all, those who already hold well-defined political and economic viewpoints are already set. The staunch free-market fiscal conservatives might not agree with the religious elements and other social conservatives, but they won't care as much about those issues to change their vote. The religious voters might be a bit more fickle, and even if they don't represent a majority of the electorate, they might just bring in the few extra percentage points needed for victory.

So, that's how I would read it. I don't think that Americans as a whole are anti-intellectual, but there are enough of them to become the "wild card" of American politics.





cloudboy -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/10/2012 5:34:13 PM)

quote:

What is defined as an "intellectual?"


Reads newspapers, magazines, and or books on a regular basis.
Has traveled outside of the USA and has learned fluency in at least one foreign language
Is not emotionally threatened by information
Thinks about and analyzes issues to better understand them
May not be good a fixing toilets or flirting with women
Tends not to be materialistic
Might be idealistic, cynical, or realistic
Knows that his own feelings and viewpoints might be incorrect
Might prefer political ideals or ends to the rights of people


quote:

What is defined as "anti-intellectual."


Gets his truth from brand named or trusted emotional sources: Fox News, Religion, Family Members
Does not read or engage in independent research of social-philosophical-political issues
Prefers a concrete, black-and-white reality to nuance or relativism
Can be violent towards those who muddy the waters or threaten their own world views
Knows how to fix a toilet and tell Gender, Racial, or other politically incorrect jokes
Might see more status in money and material goods
Might prefer good-hearted people to smart ones








YN -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/10/2012 5:53:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Many of the world's military officers also are highly educated and fit the descriptions . . .


Some of them are intellectuals.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



I think those discussing intellectualism and anti-intellectualism in nations had not considered that point, nor that certain priests, or even governmental workers also meet the description of "intellectual" as do medical doctors, lawyers, judges and magistrates and so on.

But the does this mean anyone opposed to wars are anti-intellectual since those successful at prosecuting wars are highly educated?

Is an atheist ant-intellectual because he differs with a Jesuit and his teachings?

Is a large highly ideologically trained and educated government as the CCP operates in China a more intellectual affair then Norway's constitutional monarchy? Is opposing the CCP anti-intellectual?

However as my search indicated and I noted the definition used is political not technical in nature and political term "intellectual" is user defined (and the anti-intellectual being the evil opposite) to fit whatever nation or cause the user wishes to denigrate. I saw articles or opinions as how every English speaking country was claimed to be anti-intellectual or becoming more anti-intellectual while searching the term, ( the US, UK, Canada, Australia at any rate.)




vincentML -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/10/2012 7:09:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Also, how will an advisor explain the issues to a congressman so that he can make a good decision?

Sorry, I thought this thread was about anti-intellectualism not about the merits of electing STUPID.

No it's about how the anti-intellectualism in the US results in us electing stupid. I thought that was pretty clear in the original post. [8|]

Only because you have rigged your definition to equate intellectual with smart. Therefore, if one is politically anti-intellectual one is also anti-smart and favors electing stupid. I get what you mean with respect to 'commoner' politics. But the US and other nations have always had populist politics. Nothing new there except in your faulty premise.

My point is that one does not need to be intellectual to be smart. It is only true if we accept the fallacy in the OP. [8|]




YN -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/10/2012 7:31:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
If you go to a place like Cuba or China where there are real socialists and communists in charge of things you see none of them, and the communists often refer to them as "useful idiots."


[sm=idea.gif] I must say I'm rather curious how you know what communists often refer to them as?

Mostly though I'd like to know what the difference between a communist and a socialist is?


Communists print and circulate various papers, and some are very good, regardless of what one thinks of their politics. Jet-setting members of the celebrity or upper class "proletariat" are often easily mocked, especially when they appear to have no idea of what they are actually supporting or opposing.

As for the definitions would you accept a side by side comparison of Cuba (as a communist society, where the nation's constitution declares the Partido Comunista de Cuba is "leading force of society and of the state") with Venezuela (which is now a strongly socialist country, currently run by the elected PSUV, a democratic socialist party) consider the differences being the definition?

But the short difference is every piece of land, business, or industrial facility is (in theory) owned by the people of Cuba (or strictly licensed by them at least) and operated for their benefit by the PCC, and every possible service (medical, educational, communications, etc.) is normally monopoly operated by the government. The workers as a commune own the means of production and share any benefits collectively. Or so the theory is.

In Venezuela, the workers and the government as their agents do not own the the land or any means of production collectively though certain individual nationalized industries are operated by the government, and land and businesses and industry's can be and usually are privately owned. And under Chavez and his socialists, the government provides a large number of public services for the citizens relative to many other nations, though not approaching the level of Cuba.





Anaxagoras -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/10/2012 7:39:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
My point is that one does not need to be intellectual to be smart.

IMHO smartness is similar to intellect but most notably without an element of self-conscious learning via a lot of indirect knowledge. It seems that being smart is lesser than being an intellectual although smartness does still require genuine intelligence and often a fair bit of socialised knowledge which isn't always easy to pick up either.




vincentML -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/10/2012 8:07:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
My point is that one does not need to be intellectual to be smart.

IMHO smartness is similar to intellect but most notably without an element of self-conscious learning via a lot of indirect knowledge. It seems that being smart is lesser than being an intellectual although smartness does still require genuine intelligence and often a fair bit of socialised knowledge which isn't always easy to pick up either.

One may be a smart plumber, hence an intelligent pipe fitter. But smart/intelligent does not equate to intellectual in my simple lexicon. Nor is a widely read, formerly educated person automatically an intellectual. Intelligent perhaps, an intellectual not necessarily. For me the test is: what has this person contributed to the store of human knowledge?

Although they may make valued contributions to our social, economic, scientific, philosphical understandings why presume they are indispensible to governing the Republic?





kdsub -> RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? (10/10/2012 10:10:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Because someone who would embrace the term "intellectual" thinks they're better than everyone else?


Interesting theory... how about showing us a real life example.




I do believe popeye is on to something here. Human nature is human nature and there is snobbery everywhere. How many people do you know that go around calling themselves intellectuals? Those that I know that give themselves that designation are usually snobs or elitists that believe because they have a God given talent they are better than others. And… even if they are better they lack class and good sense a failing just like the rest of us.

Then there are many… I… would call intellectuals that go about their lives with passion and learned or natural abilities far beyond mine that do not go around looking down their noses at us common people.

Butch




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